Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Toireasa Ferris again refuses to condemn Jerry McCabes killers

Options
12345679»

Comments

  • Options
    #242
    Martyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Martyr


    Liam, I wasn't just directing that question at you personally ;)
    Just at everyone in general that expects Ferris to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe.
    Liam Byrne wrote:
    "Both are wrong" falls short of condemning them.

    This is exactly what i'm talking about...what words would you like me to use? I already say
    that both are wrong, what else can i say? ...

    FF won't condemn murders in Iraq or Afghanistan.
    SF won't condemn murder of Jerry McCabe.

    However, you guys are only attacking SF because McCabe is a local issue and Iraq is a foreign issue which doesn't matter, right? it doesn't affect us here.

    But we do allow US army to refuel at shannon, and the Irish government get paid for this, so are we therefore not on the side of the US army?

    I would have thought so.


  • Options
    #243
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Martyr wrote: »
    LOL :D

    Not a laughing matter.


  • Options
    #244
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Martyr wrote: »
    However, you guys are only attacking SF because McCabe is a local issue and Iraq is a foreign issue which doesn't matter, right?

    Wrong.


  • Options
    #245
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Black Briar, with the greatest of respect, that's not strictly true; that might be a way to stay in power, doing the bare minimum expected, but it's not good government and planning.

    But without getting into that, let's not give the Martyr a reason to claim he's living up to his self-chosen name.

    He's challenged you earlier to view all murders equally, and quizzed you about the Iraq ones while stating that he thought Iraq was despicable.

    Now we should let him combine those 2 statements and back them up by answering the question that I posed before we comment further or rise to any more deflection bait.
    he thanked that post-maybe theres an answer on the way?
    I doubt it.


  • Options
    #246
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Martyr wrote: »
    Liam, I wasn't just directing that question at you personally ;)
    Just at everyone in general that expects Ferris to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe.

    Actually, no-one expects it; we'd like it and appreciate it, but true to form, we expect her to weasel out of it.

    But the FACT is that we cannot give someone the power to legislate and change laws if she condones the murder of a police officer.
    Martyr wrote: »
    what words would you like me to use? I already say
    that both are wrong, what else can i say? ...

    I condemn the invasion of Iraq and anyone supporting it is not getting my vote.

    I condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe and anyone supporting it is not getting my vote.

    I condemn the murder of Kevin McDaid at the weekend, and everyone should help the authorities to bring those involved to justice.

    I condemn the murder of Robert McCartney, and everyone should help the authorities to bring those involved to justice.

    I condemn the murder of children in Warrington, and everyone should help the authorities to bring those involved to justice.

    I condemn the murder of the officers who were receiving their pizza, and everyone should help the authorities to bring those involved to justice.

    See - it's easy. You know why ? Because they're all wrong. Because I'm neutral. Because I treat like with like.

    Can you type the above sentences and mean them ? If so, I'll continue the discussion with you.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #247
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    If so, I'll continue the discussion with you.
    To be honest it hasn't been a discussion for the last several pages and is not likely to be one from my experience of these threads over the last 8 years or so.
    Just post count.
    SF people don't do condemnation of their own..
    That's why they are in or about 10%


  • Options
    #248
    Martyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Martyr


    Deleted User wrote:
    he thanked that post-maybe theres an answer on the way?
    I doubt it.

    bloody hell..i already answered.
    Liam Byrne wrote:
    Can you type the above sentences and mean them ? If so, I'll continue the discussion with you.

    I condemn any murder, Liam, but I don't expect politicians to mean anything they say.

    So this whole story is really pointless talking about.

    Even if she were to condemn it, you'd not be satisfied just like BB and yourself were not satisfied I said "both are wrong" -- ffs.

    nothing would make you happy.
    you'd still hate sinn fein, i don't really care anyway.

    i'm not into politics, i'm into survival. :D


  • Options
    #249
    Martyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Martyr


    Deleted User wrote:
    To be honest it hasn't been a discussion for the last several pages and is not likely to be one from my experience of these threads over the last 8 years or so.
    Just post count.
    SF people don't do condemnation of their own..
    That's why they are in or about 10%

    Yes, you're absolutely right.

    See? we are making progress :P


  • Options
    #250
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Martyr wrote: »
    I condemn any murder, Liam

    The above should go without saying, but I am going to say a genuine thanks to you for saying it, particularly without the usual caveats and "....but this wasn't murder, it was a "struggle/botched operation/etc".

    So thank you. It is both refreshing and - unfortunately - surprising to hear a Sinn Fein supporter say this.
    Martyr wrote: »
    I don't expect politicians to mean anything they say.

    +1 on that, particularly (on a personal level, but not from bias - from experience) if it's a party who's second initial is "F".
    Martyr wrote: »
    So this whole story is really pointless talking about.

    I'll disagree here. Ferris won't "even" lie, so the mindset is probably ingrained and irreversible, and shows contempt for the right-thinking person's beliefs.
    Martyr wrote: »
    nothing would make you happy.

    Not true. A true "island of equals", with zero tolerance for serious crime (whether white-collar, corruption or murder) would. An Ireland where irrelevant differences such as race, religion were ignored, and everyone respected everyone's rights. But one where - if someone chooses to give that the two-fingers - they are dealt with VERY severely.
    Martyr wrote: »
    you'd still hate sinn fein, i don't really care anyway.

    You say that like it's my fault; as if I'm prejudiced. The fact is that yes, they've given me plenty of reason to hate them, and that will take a LONG time to reverse and trust them.
    Martyr wrote: »
    i'm not into politics, i'm into survival. :D

    I'm not into politics, I'm into honesty, straightforwardness, taking responsibility and positive action.


  • Options
    #251
    Martyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Martyr


    Liam Byrne wrote:
    ..surprising to hear a Sinn Fein supporter say this.

    i'm not a sinn fein supporter, i've made that clear already, many times.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #252
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Martyr wrote: »
    i'm not a sinn fein supporter, i've made that clear already, many times.

    Thanks for clarifying, and apologies for the insult.

    You have, however, challenged Black Briar on numerous unrelated issues in this thread, deflecting from the fact that if something is wrong, it's wrong, and the fact that other wrongs are being done elsewhere by others is no excuse or dilution.

    e.g. FF can't say "forget about Bertie & Ray Burke, look at what the religious orders did".

    That stance made me question your agenda.

    Fact is, if something is wrong and should be condemned, then it should be condemned. Simple.

    And if someone can't bring themselves to condemn a servant of the state doing his job being murdered by people who wanted to steal our money, then she has no moral basis on which to be elected or ask for my vote.

    Re "voicing condemnation" being different to saying "something's wrong" - here's an example :

    If someone named one of the religious scum that abused kids, and a relative of that kid went out and murdered them, it'd be wrong, but I couldn't 100%condemn it.

    What's the difference ? Because in that scenario the relative's disgust and the targetted anger at the direct perpetrator would be understandable.

    I wouldn't "condone" it, and I wouldn't "condemn" it.


  • Options
    #253
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Anyone that voted for them while they were blowing up shoping centres without permission yes.
    I do recall most nationalists in NI voted for the SDLP then though...

    20 years ago in the Northern Ireland Local Elections Sinn Fein got 11.2% of the vote the SDLP got 21%.

    If you split the others 70-30 Unionist - Nationalist, then you have a total of a 37% Nationalist Vote.

    So a Third of all Nationalists that voted in Northern Ireland in 1989 were "Blood Thirsty".

    In 2005 24.3% of the total vote went to Sinn Fein, it never ceases to amaze me how many people will bash and bash Sinn Fein without understanding who they represent North of the border. But hey most people don't really care about the North do they?


  • Options
    #254
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I'm not sure how you got 37% based on those figures, villain ? [genuinely]

    Also, in the north, remember that "bloodthirsty" didn't only apply to nationalists; many unionists voted similarly too.

    So you may have a point, although a different one to the one you intended. The north obviously has different rules as to what's acceptable, and both "sides" regularly voted for people who killed innocent people and police, even when people here stood stunned at the fact that they chose the extremists and terrorist-aligned parties over the more democratic options.

    So without "not caring" - "not understanding" that mindset might be more appropriate - it stands to reason that the rules of acceptability must obviously be different. I can't imagine ANYWHERE NEAR that number of people accepting that type of party down here.

    The converse of your argument, however, is interesting. It isn't that "we bash Sinn Fein without understanding who they represent north of the border"; it's that they obviously still have a mentality of what's viewed as acceptable THERE, without understanding that it's not acceptable HERE.

    It'd be like an immigrant Arab nation candidate proposing multiple wives.

    Different country, different rules.

    And Sinn Fein need to follow HSBC's advertised ethos, and tailor their aims to be compatible with "local customs", or else get out of the race.

    Shooting a cop in the North and being seen to ward off condemnation might gain you votes and some perverted macho credibility there.

    But it loses you both here.


  • Options
    #255
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Well if you combine the Unionist vote versus the Nationalist vote and apply that ratio with a very slight higher % of the others towards Unionists I thinkyou will find 37% isn't a bad figure.

    But if you can compute a different figure please offer it.

    If FF were a true republican party they would have been standing for elections up North but instead it was left to the SDLP and Sinn Fein.

    I have discussed the past here on several occasions especially this issue and tbh I'm too busy to go all over the same ground again, have a read of the past threads if you want to read my opinion on this.

    Also have a look at what happened to the person convicted of the Murder of James Morgan in the North.

    We will never move forward if we only look back


  • Options
    #256
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Villain wrote: »
    We will never move forward if we only look back

    Agreed.

    But likewise, we will never move forward if people don't change their blinkered view of what's acceptable, whether that's corruption or backhanders or murder.

    At a time when we're finally weeding out white-collar crime and say that corruption and abuse is not acceptable, people who view killing cops as acceptable cannot be allowed to get a seat.


  • Options
    #257
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    Pearse McCauley, Jeremiah Sheehy, Michael O’Neill and Kevin Walsh were convicted of manslaughter.

    Normally the mods on this board are very good at picking up on, and sanctioning posters for, obvious misstatements of fact and defamation.
    Its a pity to see oscarBravo breaking the charter.

    Horrible as their actions may be, they were found not guilty of murder by the courts, so stop posting otherwise.
    Facts:
    • A parked garda car, escorting a cash delivery van, was rammed from behind at speed.
    • The occupants of the ramming vehicle jumped out, and fired several rounds (11? 13? can't quite recall) from an automatic weapon at point-blank range into the garda car, killing one of the stunned gardaí and seriously wounding the other, without either of the gardaí having an opportunity to even reach for their weapons.
    • The killers then left the scene, apparently without taking any of the money that they had allegedly come for, from the open and now unguarded delivery van.
    You can call that what you will, but I find it hard to imagine that any right-thinking member of society would describe that as anything but cold-blooded, premeditated murder.

    In fact, since you bring it up: how do you reconcile the above facts with a verdict of manslaughter?


  • Options
    #258
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In fact, since you bring it up: how do you reconcile the above facts with a verdict of manslaughter?
    Thats what our Justice System found rightly or wrongly, so accusing them of been guilty of Murder is not wise imo


  • Options
    #259
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    It truly saddens me that decent, open-minded republicans opposed to violence will still support/join Sinn Féin.

    Its lack of condemnation of this evil atrocity, not to mind all the other ones, is disgusting.


  • Options
    #260
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Villain wrote: »
    Thats what our Justice System found rightly or wrongly, so accusing them of been guilty of Murder is not wise imo
    Wrongly, in my opinion - but that wouldn't have anything whatsoever to do with witness intimidation, would it?

    I note you didn't answer the question.


  • Options
    #261
    guinnessdrinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭guinnessdrinker


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Wrongly, in my opinion - but that wouldn't have anything whatsoever to do with witness intimidation, would it?

    Did witness intimidation actually happen in this case or are you speculating?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #262
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    This issue is going to constantly come back to her through her career. For her own sake it would be much easier to come out and condemn the murder but she is sticking to her guns, and that's her prerogative. I don't think anything is to be gained by constantly harassing her about it and I don't think it's a reflection on her abilities as a politician. I believe she is a strong candidate for Europe and she has my vote Friday.


  • Options
    #263
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Wrongly, in my opinion - but that wouldn't have anything whatsoever to do with witness intimidation, would it?

    I note you didn't answer the question.

    I have answered that enough times in the past tbh, imo it was Murder but thats not what the Justice system found so to present that it was murder as a fact is wrong, I also have opinions on other parties of the Dail and certain members however we can't accuse people of something that the Jutsice system has found not to be true


  • Options
    #264
    Souljacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 121 ✭✭Souljacker


    guinnessdrinker wrote: »
    Did witness intimidation actually happen in this case or are you speculating?

    Irish Times Article August 2000
    ‘In January 1999 added insult to the rule of law to the terrible injury to the McCabe and O'Sullivan families. The IRA effectively managed to force the prosecution to accept a plea of manslaughter rather than murder from the accused by striking fear into the hearts of key witnesses. One man who testified that one of the accused was similar to a man he had seen in Adare on the day of the shooting said he had been "intimidated and threatened".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/learning/history/stateapart/agreement/policing/support/pj5_n071.shtml


    Irish independent articles on intimidation in said trial

    http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/ghost-of-slaughtered-jerry-mccabe-still-haunts-dail-123125.html


    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/why-garda-rank-and-file-are-incensed-at-prospect-of-mccabe-killers-early-release-139755.html


    BBC News website

    ‘The case at Dublin's Special Criminal Court erupted in controversy on Wednesday when the men pleaded guilty to manslaughter as a prosecution for capital murder was undermined by witness intimidation.’
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/272909.stm


  • Options
    #265
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »
    For her own sake it would be much easier to come out and condemn the murder but she is sticking to her guns
    At the risk of repeating oscarBrave, unfortunate turn of phrase... :pac:

    You say that though as if she's doing the honorable thing, having conviction and integrity - except she's not, she's just following the party line. She won't condemn it because, as a Sinn Féin representative, she can't.


  • Options
    #266
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »
    I don't think anything is to be gained by constantly harassing her about it and I don't think it's a reflection on her abilities as a politician. I believe she is a strong candidate for Europe and she has my vote Friday.

    Asking a question is not harassing. It's not our fault that she won't answer in an acceptable fashion.

    And it is DEFINITELY a reflection on her abilities as a politician; if she can't even VOICE an opinion consistent with that of the people she's hoping to represent, how can she act in their interests ?

    Your vote is your vote, and I'll accept that. What you do with it is your choice.

    But bear in mind that you're implicitly stating that you're OK with the fact that she can't condemn a cold-blooded, criminal shooting of a Garda that was working in the public interest.

    I hope you never have to call the Gardai to come help you, because at the very least there's one less to come to your aid.

    And whatever about representing people's views, I for one would be worried at the signal being given to Europe if Ireland sends someone to Europe who doesn't respect laws and shows no disgust when people shoot police force members.

    It would be the equivalent of having a disgraced member of the religious orders drawing up laws for child-protection and mandatory reporting of abuse.


  • Options
    #267
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Asking a question is not harassing. It's not our fault that she won't answer in an acceptable fashion.

    And it is DEFINITELY a reflection on her abilities as a politician; if she can't even VOICE an opinion consistent with that of the people she's hoping to represent, how can she act in their interests ?
    I'd say it's more a case of, if she wants to remain in Sinn Féin then she can't condemn it. She's not a lone voice, she's the voice of Sinn Féin.


  • Options
    #268
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Dudess wrote: »
    I'd say it's more a case of, if she wants to remain in Sinn Féin then she can't doesn't want to / hasn't the guts to condemn it. She's not a lone voice, she's the voice of Sinn Féin.

    Translation : the wishes of "the party" is more important than the public, justice, common decency and law & order.

    If murder wasn't involved (which not even FF would touch, I'd say), they'd be perfect bedfellows....


  • Options
    #269
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    If you contradict your party's line you'll be expected to leave - imagine if Eamon Gilmore started waxing lyrical about the gloriousness of laissez-faire economics.

    If Ferris wanted to think outside the Sinn Féin box, she'd be an independent.


  • Options
    #270
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Dudess wrote: »
    If you contradict your party's line you'll be expected to leave - imagine if Eamon Gilmore started waxing lyrical about the gloriousness of laissez-faire economics.

    If Ferris wanted to think outside the Sinn Féin box, she'd be an independent.

    Conversely, if the party line contradicted human decency and justice, I'd want to leave.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement