Who to vote for?

Deerspotter

As it stands at the moment, I am unclear who to vote for with a view to protecting our country sports.
Anyone offer any informed opinions?

Sparks

The NARGC had a document posted on this on their website a while ago, but it basicly said that every politician was bad.

Basicly put, there isn't anyone whose party will support us consistently.

Going on the performances in the Dail on the CJA2006 and the current Misc Bill, I'd lean towards Labour if I had to lean, but frankly, politicians chase votes in Ireland, they don't take stands on principle...

Half-cocked

I think the Irish voter (and firearm owner in particular) has 2 choices:
1. Don't vote at all or
2. Vote for the best of a bad lot.
If you can catch any candidates on your doorstep (the FFers seem to be slipping leaflets through letterboxes in the dead of night - perhaps lamping them might be an idea?) I'd question them at length on their personal views on all firearm related issues and vote accordingly. It is also an oppertunity to educate the ignorant - many candidates now little or nothing about shooting sports and only hear the party line on evil Glocks etc.

pullandbang

Given the current state of the economy, would anyone actually decide where to give their vote on the basis of protecting our sport? Is your hobby/sport important enough to overlook a political party's economic and social policies?
As much as I love my shooting/fishing I'd have to think carefully about letting that be the deciding factor in how I vote.

Half-cocked

Pullandbang, you would be correct if the main opposition parties had radicaly different policies that could extract us from the hole we are in. Then I would vote for the party that could rescue the country from bankruptcy, regardless of its policy on firearms. However, all of our main parties have broadly similar economic policies and I'll bet if FG or Labour had been in power for the last decade, we'd have arrived in exactly the same place we are now (except maybe with a little less corruption on the way).

Or maybe I'm just far too cynical....;)

G17

pullandbang wrote: »

As much as I love my shooting/fishing I'd have to think carefully about letting that be the deciding factor in how I vote.

Health, the economy, crime, etc. are all more important, however:

I shoot 2 to 3 days per week where possible, my family and friends shoot too. It's a HUGE voting reason for me as it takes up so much of my time. I'm as fond of target shooting as many in this country are of their GAA.

My wife is asking each and every one of the canvassers exactly what their position is. At the moment Labour are the CLEAR favourites for our vote. This is based on a face to face encounter with the leader, Pat Rabbite's exchanges and the fact that my local TD has emailed me several times to address my concerns.

Best of a bad lot, perhaps, but at least they give you the time of day.


Anyone who knows me knows I'm not from a Labour family.

If you're not sure, Vote Labour.

foxhunter

+1 for labour they seem to be the best of a bad lot imo.

Sparks

Well, if we're voting for Labour, then we might as well start writing to Rabbitte asking him to continue to voice our opposition to the Bill in Committee stage - ten or twenty emails is enough to get noticed; more than that tends to be strongly noted.

G17

Sparks wrote: »

Well, if we're voting for Labour, then we might as well start writing to Rabbitte asking him to continue to voice our opposition to the Bill in Committee stage -

Done.

It wasn't me!

E-mail written. Fine-tuning now. Will post when finalised and sent.

It wasn't me!

Okay, feel free to let me know what you think. It's getting tweaked, but thought I'd get some insight from the public before sending it on.

E-mail to Pat Rabbitte wrote:

Dear sir,

I am writing to request your representation of some of my views in the upcoming committee debates on the proposed CJA 2009 Misc. Provisions Bill. Heretofore, you have proven a supporter of the legitimate sporting shooting community in Ireland, and from observing the Dáil debates recently on this issue, I feel you and your party best represent my interests in this matter. I commend to your attention some of my observations on the material substance of this Bill, and some aspects of it which I find startling, to say the least. My interests in the bill are many, but I propose to deal primarily with the oppressive treatment of licenced firearm holders.

In the first place, I wish to make clear that I feel that the Minister is exceeding the scope of his mandate in many aspects of this Bill, by attempting to direct the Oireachtas in an area of policy I cannot help but feel is beyond the Minister's remit. He himself admitted today in the Dáil chamber that the provision of the bill dealing with a ban on the issuing of handgun licences is not a measure designed to prevent the spread of gun crime, but to prevent the development of what, in the minister's eyes, represents a growing "culture" of handgun ownership. I hope you might advise the minister that his brief is with regard to criminal legislation, and that where he himself admits that there is no clear link between this "culture" and his area of criminal legislation, that it is beyond the scope of his job to write legislation in respect of a "culture"

Furthermore, I wish to address the alleged development of a "gun culture" and to set right that there is no such thing. Following the initial judicial review in 2004, when it became a plausible reality to licence handguns in the state, the number of those licenced has been seen to rise, from zero to around 1800. It is also noteworthy that many of those licenced since 2004 number also among the same pistols confiscated in 1972 under the Temporary Custody Order written by the minister of the day, Des O'Malley. The policy following on from the Temporary Custody Order of not re-issuing licences for those firearms seized under the order was illegal, a policy handed down from on high with no legislative backing in the statute books. The fact that the minister celebrates this extra-legal seizure every time he pontificates about how no handguns were licenced before 2004 is not lost on the Irish shooting community, and I - perhaps naively - like to think it is not lost on the community at large. There is, in addition, no evidence to support claims made by the minister and many deputies that the rise in licensing seen since 2004 will continue at the current rate. With many of those firearms confiscated in 1972 having been finally re-licensed (in some cases to the descendants of their original owners), and those shooters interested in pistol sports established, it is far more likely that the rise in licences issued would slow considerably, to a trickle in fact. The numbers do not support the minister's assertion of a "growing culture". It is perhaps also worth noting to the minister that, despite the UK's much-vaunted handgun ban in the wake of Dunblane, the exceptions to the ban mean that there are still more licenced handguns per capita in mainland Great Britain than there are in the Republic of Ireland, and yet this is so insignificant that the fact passes unnoticed for the most part.

The minister is proposing in this bill to confer upon himself unprecedented power in section 25 of the Bill, which carries the provision that the minister may declare restricted certain firearms and ammunition, based on criteria which display clearly the minister's lack of expertise or expert consultation. That the minister can arbitrarily legislate, thanks to the provisions of this section, to ban things, without consultation, of which he knows and understands nothing, would be an abuse of power and the system he represents, and has the potential to most gravely affect the sport of shooting in Ireland. It is a dangerous provision, which again does nothing to prevent criminal activity, and should not be allowed pass into law.

The personal importation of firearms by individuals who have been granted firearms certificates in respect of those firearms is an area particularly significant to some areas of the shooting sports in Ireland, whose equipment is in the main so specialised that it would not be stocked by Irish firearms dealerships. Dealerships may or may not accommodate shooters in this regard, but the likelihood is that there will be extortionate charges for doing so. The monopoly Irish distributors possess with regard to their products also leads already to a situation where prices for consumables such as ammunition are up to four times higher than they are even in Northern Ireland. That Irish shooters would be reliant on Irish dealerships, without recourse to European dealerships within the common market, would certainly throttle the shooting sports in Ireland, who are already under great burden, both financially and legislatively.

Sir, as an Irish sporting shooter, I do not object to the extremely stringent licensing procedure we undergo in order to be able to pursue our sport. Rather, I welcome a system which legally binds a Garda Superintendent to refuse a licence to any individual whose possession of a firearm, in his eyes, will threaten public safety and the peace. I abide by all guidelines with regard to the storage of my sporting equipment and adhere to strict codes of safety, in the interests of the public. I support all efforts on the part of the minister and the government to legitimately tackle gun crim, gangland violence and the drugs trade. I commend both the government and the Gardaí in their successes to date in these endeavours and wish them many more. What I object to is the association of my sporting pastimes with criminals. I object to being treated as a potential criminal, as the minister is suggesting that by licensing the firearms in private ownership in Ireland, Superintendents around the country have acted illegally, by issuing licences in defiance of the firearms act, which states in no uncertain terms that a Superintendent cannot issue a licence unless he is certain that by doing so he will not endanger the public security or the peace. This is not the case. Licenced firearms have not been a problem in this country. They do not constitute a problem and they will not do so. To suggest otherwise is without merit and without basis.

I feel the minister is acting beyond the scope of his brief, biased by his personal views and agenda with regard to firearms. He has no evidence to support his assertion of a growing gun culture in Ireland; he has no evidence to support his assertion that the licensing of firearms, and pistols in particular, constitutes a threat to the public safety; he libels a host of Garda Superintendents, suggesting that they have acted illegally; and he admits that his proposed ban on handguns does not address a criminal issue which would require legislation. There is an abundance of law on the statute books already with regard to the legal possession of firearms. There is no need for further legislation in the area and the minister is not addressing any problem, past, present or future with the proposed additions and amendments. I hope you will speak with the minister on my behalf and raise my concerns in the committee debates on this Bill.

I can be contacted by e-mail if you would like to discuss the matter further.

Yours sincerely,

pullandbang

G17 wrote: »

Health, the economy, crime, etc. are all more important, however:
I shoot 2 to 3 days per week where possible, my family and friends shoot too. It's a HUGE voting reason for me as it takes up so much of my time. I'm as fond of target shooting as many in this country are of their GAA.
My wife is asking each and every one of the canvassers exactly what their position is. At the moment Labour are the CLEAR favourites for our vote. This is based on a face to face encounter with the leader, Pat Rabbite's exchanges and the fact that my local TD has emailed me several times to address my concerns.
Best of a bad lot, perhaps, but at least they give you the time of day.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm not from a Labour family.
If you're not sure, Vote Labour.

Good point and well made.
I'm still not sure who to vote for and given the cynicism I feel towards the whole lot of them I'd be tempted not to bother voting. However, I do value my right to vote and have never not voted (though I did spoil one once!) so I'll have to mull this one over. So far I've only spoken to people running for our local elections and they'll tell you anything you want to hear.
I haven't met any of the European candidates so that's another days mulling!

Grizzly 45

Trouble is I find with that lot that supposedly govern or would want to govern us is.
At election time,be it local,national or EU,they will say anything and promise anything for your vote.I am more inclined to look back over their time in office and see if the rascally fellows deserve another term in office,or are there local versions any better/Answer for me is of all of them..NONE of the above!

Since the last general elections where I voiced my concerns to all who darkned my door on the issues of firearms starting with the liscense fee increase.the responses were;
FF We will do somthing about this once returned to Govt........
FG If we get into Govt ,we will not tamper with this,or enact more stringent laws.......

All the rest were not arsed on campaining just leafletting our area.

Assistance renderd on helping and an expressed a keen intrest in the setting up a firing range in Limerick ,and small time gundealership.On this one FF Willie O Dea and local FF canditate.

FG,no response from local canditate,or from any other parties.

This is where the conundrum many of us find ourselves in.Some people in parties we proably by now abhor have been helpful to us,but their parties are generally a disaster.Yet voting for the person who helped us,will put their party back in a stronger position to ruin us even further.How do you sort this one out?? :(

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is where the conundrum many of us find ourselves in.Some people in parties we proably by now abhor have been helpful to us,but their parties are generally a disaster.Yet voting for the person who helped us,will put their party back in a stronger position to ruin us even further.How do you sort this one out?? :(

Simple. You punish the party that punished you.

Doesn't matter what the local guy said or did, this is an old trick. It's called 'blame the lads in head office' and is how you keep the vote without actually doing anything for it.

lordarpad

Sparks wrote: »

Well, if we're voting for Labour, then we might as well start writing to Rabbitte asking him to continue to voice our opposition to the Bill in Committee stage - ten or twenty emails is enough to get noticed; more than that tends to be strongly noted.

As I have Give the man good arguments. My local TD seemed to be very ingigued at the whole competition thing with the firearms dealers for instance.

Callow Man

Anyone have any opinions on Ganley and Libertas?. As Europe seem to be making most of our decisions for us at the moment I get the feeling that if the euro nuts get there way we could be living on a huge animal sanctuary in years to come!!!

dresden8

rrpc wrote: »

Simple. You punish the party that punished you.

Remember. Repay.

Are you a gangland hit-man?

Little Dermo seems to think so. You and your feckin' gun culture.

Do you wish you came from South Central L.A.?

Fo' shizzle!

Grizzly 45

Callow Man wrote: »

Anyone have any opinions on Ganley and Libertas?. As Europe seem to be making most of our decisions for us at the moment I get the feeling that if the euro nuts get there way we could be living on a huge animal sanctuary in years to come!!!

The message is sound,the ideal is good.The messangers leave alot to be desired!:eek:Somone described them as "the intresting pond life of European politics".Met a couple of them,talked to them for 10 mins ,I ran away very quickly!!

Shoot Mufa!! If we wuz livin in South central LA we wouldnt be havin all dis problems wit that Mutha Aherne.Som Homies would be gone and pop a few caps in that dumb Muthas gun bannin political ass!!!Yo be a crim,yo got more rights to do dis than any of dem dumb mutha straight ass crackers out dere.
Not to mind yo got De Right to keep a piece in da USA!
Seeing that we are being lumped in with criminals might as well start talking like them:mad:

Callow Man

Thanks for the update Grizzly. Still have a few days to make up my mind so, my vote wont be going to FF though!!!!

meathstevie

Callow Man wrote: »

Anyone have any opinions on Ganley and Libertas?. As Europe seem to be making most of our decisions for us at the moment I get the feeling that if the euro nuts get there way we could be living on a huge animal sanctuary in years to come!!!

Not as long as Germany, France, Italy and Belgium are in the EU. The Germans by and large have hunting and target shooting in their genetical blueprint. The same goes for the French and Italians when you speak about hunting. And as for Belgium : a Belgian company called Fabrique National is the owner of probably the biggest sporting arms manufacturer in the world : Browning.

I'll agree with you if you say that EU has introduced more regulation and has tightened things up a bit as such that hasn't been harmful accross the continent. EU habitat directives for example by and large have the potential of sustaining game and other animals.

Sparks

Sent to Eoin Ryan - be interesting to hear what a FF MEP candidate thinks of FF proposed legislation (and I'll send it on to all the other MEP candidates as well):

Minister Ryan,
What are your thoughts on how the latest proposed amendments to the Irish Firearms Acts - as contained in the Criminal Justice (Misc.Provisions) Bill 2009 - contravene the EU directive on Firearms (91/477/EEC) by requiring all Irish firearms owners to only purchase ammunition or firearms from _Irish_ registered firearms dealers instead of the current (and in force since 1964) laws that allow them to purchase from any registered firearms dealer in the EU so long as the appropriate paperwork is in place?

Yours in Sport,

Sparks

And that's now going to all the MEP candidates through candidatewatch.ie and I've also emailed the major parties asking for their official positions on private ownership of firearms (including handguns) for the purposes of target shooting and/or hunting.

Sparks

Asked FF, FG and Labour what their official policies on private ownership of firearms (including handguns) for the purposes of target shooting and/or hunting were.

Sparks wrote:

What's the Labour policy on private ownership of firearms (including handguns) for target shooting?

Labour wrote:

thanks for the question, our Justice spokesperson Pat Rabbitte TD issued a statement on it two weeks ago, http://url.ie/1n67

Sparks wrote:

And the 200,000 shooters in Ireland were happy with his statement - but it isn't an official policy, it was only about the Bill.

Labour wrote:

if the spokesperson says it, and it is read into the Dáil, it is our policy.

So that's Labour's official policy.
Still waiting to hear from FF/FG:

Sparks wrote:

@FineGaelIreland What's the FG policy on private ownership of firearms for target shooting? TDs Flanagan & Deasy seem to differ on this!

Sparks wrote:

@FiannaFailParty What's the FF policy on private ownership of firearms (including handguns) for target shooting?

G17

Lads and ladies, read Pat Rabbite's statement again. As it stands at this moment in time, if shooting sports are important to you, the only possible vote you can give is to Labour; and if you do vote Labour, let them know you did and indeed why you did, more importantly let the others know too.

John Deasy and his ilk would have the public believe that us sporting shooters want US style gun ownership. That couldn't be further from the truth and it's a crying shame that a public representative can say I'm part of some gun culture as if I'm some sinister being with ill intent.

I shoot paper targets in a safe environment, I have many target shooting friends and am making new ones all the time who love firearms, their history, design, functionality, accuracy and everything to do with them EXCEPT their use against a person. It's simply not in the Irish sport shooters' vocabulary. Labour seem to have understood this and stood up in the Dáil and issued a statement based solely on the factual information to hand.

Nobody from the other parties has come back to me, never mind made a supporting statement in the Dáil. This isn't a huge vote gatherer but Labour still seem to value the individual over the brown envelope lickers. This (misc. bill) has been
my first interaction with the political process in Ireland and I've learned a lot.

I will be voting Labour across the board on Friday.

jwshooter

G17 wrote: »

Lads and ladies, read Pat Rabbite's statement again. As it stands at this moment in time, if shooting sports are important to you, the only possible vote you can give is to Labour; and if you do vote Labour, let them know you did and indeed why you did, more importantly let the others know too.

John Deasy and his ilk would have the public believe that us sporting shooters want US style gun ownership. That couldn't be further from the truth and it's a crying shame that a public representative can say I'm part of some gun culture as if I'm some sinister being with ill intent.

I shoot paper targets in a safe environment, I have many target shooting friends and am making new ones all the time who love firearms, their history, design, functionality, accuracy and everything to do with them EXCEPT their use against a person. It's simply not in the Irish sport shooters' vocabulary. Labour seem to have understood this and stood up in the Dáil and issued a statement based solely on the factual information to hand.

Nobody from the other parties has come back to me, never mind made a supporting statement in the Dáil. This isn't a huge vote gatherer but Labour still seem to value the individual over the brown envelope lickers. This (misc. bill) has been
my first interaction with the political process in Ireland and I've learned a lot.

I will be voting Labour across the board on Friday.

who is the south east would you vote for iv looked at them all and none of them look like a lad that would go hunting with ya

Sparks

none of them look like a lad that would go hunting with ya

Doesn't matter - the backbenchers don't generally speak in the Dail anyway, they just file in at the end of the debate to hit the voting button the way the party whip tells them to. If there are more of them than there are of the other guy, then their party policy wins the day. So there's no real point in looking at the local lad unless he's a party leader - you just vote by party instead.

G17

jwshooter wrote: »

who is the south east would you vote for iv looked at them all and none of them look like a lad that would go hunting with ya

A few of 'em look like they're chasing Rabbitte surely!!!!:D:D:D:D

Sparks

Received from Fine Gael:

Fine Gael Political Director wrote:

Thank you for your email regarding the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 currently going through the Houses of the Oireachtas. I note the concerns you set out about the tightening of legislation on firearms and how this will impact on some sports and I wish to respond on behalf of all Fine Gael electoral candidates.

It had been well mooted that the Minister for Justice planned to tighten the regulations in relation to the licensing of firearms, including a ban on the licensing of handguns. He has proposed as much in this Bill.

During debates in the Dáil, Charles Flanagan TD, Fine Gael Spokesman on Justice, has repeatedly called on the Minister to shift his focus on legally held firearms to the far more serious problem caused by illegal firearms in the State. We are urging the Minister to direct his attention in the first instance towards the serious matter of illegal firearms, which are easily accessible to criminal gangs, as part of a broader effort to tackle criminality in this country.

Fine Gael will raise your concerns at Committee Stage of the Bill when TDs will discuss the legislative provisions in detail.

Reply sent:

Sparks wrote:

Thank you for your response - might I ask directly, however, why Deputy Flanagan's comments in the Dail and those of Deputy Deasy are at such odds?
Deputy Deasy has easily lost Fine Gael a large number of votes amongst the 200,000-odd licenced firearms owners in this country, not to mention their friends and families.
Is there no overall Fine Gael policy on private ownership of firearms that can be cited?

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

And that's now going to all the MEP candidates

Received:

Noel McCullagh wrote:

Where as I do not know as much about this subject as you (there are so many), I can say this.
Were I to vote on such an issue, it would be in Brussels. I can assure you that I would read thoroughly through legislation and discuss that with interested parties on the ground.
My thoughts on the free movement of goods and services means that I would tend toward the second scenario that you outline in your question, i.e. that people should be able to purchase goods and wares (ammunition for hunting or shooting, et cereta) provided that they have in their possession all of the correct documents that are required under the existing act in force.
I am disappointed with the transposition of EU law into the Irish Statute books, and it is my consistent impression that the delays in this process are caused by the Central Party in Dublin requiring time to set up the various companies and so forth, that then proceed to benefit economically once the regulations are transposed to the Irish law books.
As a journalist covering the release of EU legislation, and one who (by means of being an Irishman) keeps a close watch on how the central party in Dublin "use" and "apply" those laws in practise : I see first hand the dynamics that are at work in Ireland in this regard.

I hope and trust that this answers your question. Could you let me know if I have left something out that is important to you ... you who feel strongly about this issue. May I ask : what is your opinion and do you own a rifle yourself ? What is the price difference between purchasing goods that fall under this Irish Statute in the UK and/or in France?

My prerogative is that the people in the area, those involved on the ground, are the most informed groups when it comes to very specific matters such as this one.

It will be my policy to listen to that knowledge, (and thereby hope to take most of it in as it is very often highly expert information depending on the citizens area of special expertise) , and after listening to how policies will effect those operating "on the ground" , I will act accordingly in the interests of those people.

After all, it is they who I shall be representing here in the Benelux~!

Best wishes ,
Noel

PS :Sorry for the late reply> My campaign is somewhat slow this week as I had to leave my home due to threats on my life.

--
Noel McCullagh,
Candidate, North-West constituency

jwshooter

i have just e mailed brendan howlin hear in wexford to see what he says.

Sparks

Howlin was fairly active on our behalf during the debates on the CJB2004...