Permaban from Soccer

Helix

Following this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055576796 which was locked pending an admin discussion about the subject matter, I have been informed by Beruthiel that the admins have voted unanimously that I be permabanned from the soccer forum.

This is something that I take great issue with for several reasons.

I was banned for something posted on another site, namely the following

FA Board Member Responds to Claims
Boards.ie Xpert Eleven FA vice-chairman H3lx has responded to reports in certain media outlets that calls have been made for the enforced sacking of Congress Blitz manager GuanYin.

It has been suggested on several occasions in the past that the Blitz manager has a tendancy to try and censor the views and opinions of managers within the league, and some feel that things need to be addressed if she is to have any future in the Boards.ie league.

One manager, who wished to remain anonymous claimed "she's a f****** g***, end of story", sentiments echoed by a fellow mid-league based boss who said "She sounds like a total f****** ****".

With the media camped outside Boards.ie FA headquarters all day looking for a quote, it was left to Stanley Victor manager H3lx to discuss briefly the feelings of the Association.

"Whether or not she is a ******* **** is not for us to say. We just want to get on with the football. If two managers want to banter with each other in the relevant place then we, the FA, agree that they should be able to. However when this place is outside our jurisdiction there is very little we can do."

Many will see this as a surprisingly diplomatic from a man who has courted controversy on manys an occasion, but they weren't to be disappointed when moments later H3lx left the press conference with his microphone still attached and quipped to another member of the FA

"Just f****** kick her, if you dont wanna do it give me the ban hammer for 10 minutes and I'll do it."

The FA were unavailable for comment on this matter.

Firstly, in the above I have not done anything to break any charter rules. I have not posted any personal abuse. The "she's a f****** g***, end of story" and "She sounds like a total f****** ****" comments are not mine. I made it quite clear in the above that they are not mine, and I struggle to see how anyone could take them to be mine. As I pointed out, they were made by 2 other managers within the Xpert Eleven league. I fail to see how me using their comments and attributing them to the people in question is a timed banning offence, never mind a permaban worthy one.

Secondly, I have not been given a reason as to why I have been banned. I have been told that it's in relation to the above, but no specifics have been issued. Once again, I have checked both the soccer and general boards.ie charters and nothing above is in contravention with any rules outlined in either.

The only negative thing I said in the above quote was that I wanted to ban her from the Xpert Eleven game. I fail to see how this is a boards.ie issue. This is still my opinion, and so far as I am aware boards.ie does not own xperteleven.com nor do any of its rules include a section where a member may not desire to remove a boards.ie member from a league within said site.

I am absolutely positive that I have not broken any boards.ie rules, so I cannot understand why I have been permabanned from the soccer forum. I would like some clarification on the precise reason for the ban, because so far as I can see it is for one of the following reasons:

1) I have been banned for something 2 other people said, on a site that has nothing to do with boards

2) I have been banned for repeating something 2 other people said, on a site that has nothing to do with boards as a press release on another site that has nothing to do with boards

3) I have been banned for not liking Guanyin

4) I have been banned for saying that I would like Guanyin removed from the Xpert Eleven league

For 1 and 2, I fail to see why it is deemed appropriate for me to be banned for someone else's opinion

For 3 and 4, I fail to see why it is deemed appropriate for me to be banned for not liking a moderator on this site, especially when I have not posted this dislike on boards.ie

Some clarification would be appreciated, if at the very least to let other boards.ie users know if a precedent has been set whereby their entire internet use outside boards.ie can ultimately affect their boards account

Dav

I would have grave concerns about people attaching this site's name to something only to have it turn into a place where they can abuse other members of the site. You're sticking our name to it implies our consent to do that and by extension, implicates us in advocating this sort of poor behaviour.

I will ask the other admins to get into specifics of your ban, that's not one of the processes I involve myself with. But looking after this site's image and good name in the public domain is part of my job. Some of the other various clubs that have sprung up out of boards have asked permission to attach our name to what they're doing, this may be something we're going to have to insist upon in future to avoid this sort of thing.

Helix

Hi Dav, cheers for the reply. Considering that this isnt currently something that's in the rules, would you like the league name to be changed to remove Boards.ie from it then?

Again I must point out that I didn't abuse anyone, unless you class me saying that I would like to ban her as abuse?

I have no problem with you insisting on asking for permission, but I would have a problem with my banning being upheld on the basis of something that isn't a current boards rule, as this is enormously unfair. I do appreciate that you are concerned with the site's image, and that's perfectly fine by me.

I am sure that this could have been handled in a much better way than a knee-jerk permaban for something which didn't in any way infringe on any of the current boards.ie rules though, and I would like that this be taken into consideration as well as the suggestion that we change the name and an additional rule dealing with this be added for future reference.

Cheers

BuffyBot

So, you're telling us you *don't* feel there is anything wrong with what has occured?

Helix

BuffyBot wrote: »

So, you're telling us you *don't* feel there is anything wrong with what has occured?

It doesnt break any boards rules

I didnt personally abuse her

If Dav wants the name of the league changed that's fine.

I've yet to hear what is a bannable offence in all of this

Beruthiel

And we have yet to hear you say you understand what the problem is here.

Helix

Beruthiel wrote: »

And we have yet to hear you say you understand what the problem is here.

How can I understand the problem when I havent been told which rules have been broken? Perhaps if we lay out the precise reason for the banning and show the rules it breaks then I can understand why a permaban from soccer was deemed appropriate

Dav

Briefly: I would like you to remove the boards.ie name from your group if that's the sort of behaviour you allow, yes. This was not a rule before, no, but I will be consulting with the others here in the office and I feel it may have to become one.

Helix

Dav wrote: »

Briefly: I would like you to remove the boards.ie name from your group if that's the sort of behaviour you allow, yes. This was not a rule before, no, but I will be consulting with the others here in the office and I feel it may have to become one.

That should be no problem

Now that that bit is out of the way, is there any chance one of the admins could tell me what rule(s) I have broken if any, and the specific reason for the ban in line with the boards/soccer charters? I have asked six times so far and still not been told, so this banning is still exceptionally unfair so far as I can see

hullaballoo

The rule you broke is that you abused a moderator.


No, I don't accept your plea that it wasn't personal abuse - it was. It wasn't even veiled.


No, I don't accept your plea that it was off-site because that's rubbish: there's a crystal clear crossover between the Soccer forum and xperteleven and I've been told that the latter wouldn't even exist but for boards.ie.

It's a ridiculous breach of good faith on your behalf to abuse the privilege of using this site to wind up a moderator who volunteers here in order to try and make the site a better place for you to come and use. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Helix

I've just requested that the league owner/admin (KevIRL) change the league name as requested

Helix

hullaballoo wrote: »

The rule you broke is that you abused a moderator.

No I didnt. All I said is that I'd like to remove her from the league on Xperteleven.com. I didn't abuse her in any way shape or form

hullaballoo wrote: »

No, I don't accept your plea that it wasn't personal abuse - it was. It wasn't even veiled.

It wasnt any abuse. I didn't say anything negative her in the slightest. Two other people did

hullaballoo wrote: »

No, I don't accept your plea that it was off-site because that's rubbish: there's a crystal clear crossover between the Soccer forum and xperteleven and I've been told that the latter wouldn't even exist but for boards.ie.

Xperteleven is a Swedish site that has been on the go for years, I really don't think boards.ie has any influence on its existance, with all due respect

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's a ridiculous breach of good faith on your behalf to abuse the privilege of using this site to wind up a moderator who volunteers here in order to try and make the site a better place for you to come and use. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I havent broken any boards rules. That is the bottom line here, whether you think I should be ashamed of something I posted on another website with zero afiliation to this one is entirely up to you. However once again I will stress that the only thing I said about the mod in question was that I would like for the admin to remove her from the league. If you read what was posted again you'll clearly see that I made no references to her character, her ability as a moderator, or anything at all to do with her, in fact I said:

"Whether or not she is a ******* **** is not for us to say. We just want to get on with the football. If two managers want to banter with each other in the relevant place then we, the FA, agree that they should be able to. However when this place is outside our jurisdiction there is very little we can do."

hullaballoo

You must think we're idiots.




We're not.

Helix

hullaballoo wrote: »

You must think we're idiots.




We're not.

I havent broken any boards rules, have I?

I didnt abuse her, did I?

I posted a press release based on some banter on another site, referencing comments made by other users, and referencing a comment made by me requesting to be made admin so that I could kick her out. I don't think youre quite grasping this.

Are you suggesting that I fabricated the two other managers and their comments to have a dig at her? If that's the reason I've been banned then you are sorely mistaken

Is the official line then, that I've been permabanned for abusing a moderator (on a site that has nothing to do with boards.ie)?

Beruthiel

Helix wrote: »

Is the official line then, that I've been permabanned for abusing a moderator (on a site that has nothing to do with boards.ie)?

Considering that you have no intention of backing down and actually admitting you did any wrong.
Yes, this is the official line and you have given us no reason to change our minds.

Helix

Beruthiel wrote: »

Considering that you have no intention of backing down and actually admitting you did any wrong.
Yes, this is the official line and you have given us no reason to change our minds.

I don't see how posting the opinions of two other players posted on a third party site (neither boards nor xperteleven) and supplementing them with asterisks and a quote from me posted on the same website is deserving of me "backing down" or admitting that I have done anything wrong

I used the press release function of the xperteleven game for the very thing Guanyin told two posters in the soccer forum to use it for here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60412942&postcount=1540

In doing so I also posted the views of two other players, complete with asterisks in a mock newspaper report style, which I am now being accused of fabricating apparently.

Dev has requested the boards.ie name be removed from the league, and I have passed this request onto the league owner and admin so that he can change the name.

I did precisely what Guanyin told 2 players on this site to do, on a site that I must stress again has zero to do with boards.ie, yet I have been permabanned from the soccer forum for posting something somewhere that has absolutely nothing to do with it

Are we now saying that the boards.ie rules encompass the entire of the world wide web?

Trojan

This is an interesting situation. On the one hand, I would rather that boards.ie minds it's own patch, and it's own patch only, and leave other sites up to themselves to police.

On the other hand, there is a clear link between the Soccer board and the previously named "Boards.ie Xpert Eleven" group, where we have this instance of boards.ie users abusing boards.ie mods. And let's be clear: we are not derailed by either of the "it's a quote" or "it's starred out" defenses - this is definitely abuse.

I'd rather that boards didn't have to set a precedent here, but by Helix's actions here he is forcing the situation to where we have to make a decision that sets that precedent.

I think that we need to create a rule something along the following lines: when there is a clear link between 1) a boards.ie community, forum or group, and 2) a 3rd party website or publication, then boards.ie members may be banned from the relevant boards.ie community for certain behaviours (including abuse, bullying, threats -- to be defined).

Helix: I was one of the admins to vote for your permaban, and it was not knee-jerk by any means. Personally I'd rather it wasn't a permanent ban, that you could see your fault here and apologise to GuanYin. Instead you are argumentative and choose to argue when you are clearly at fault, and that does not help your case at all. If you can see reason, please let us know here and I will discuss reduction of your ban with the other admins

Helix

Trojan wrote: »

where we have this instance of boards.ie users abusing boards.ie mods.

they were not boards users

Trojan wrote: »

And let's be clear: we are not derailed by either of the "it's a quote" or "it's starred out" defenses - this is definitely abuse.

yet again its being said that i said these things, i didnt.
Instead you are argumentative and choose to argue when you are clearly at fault, and that does not help your case at all. If you can see reason, please let us know here and I will discuss reduction of your ban with the other admins[/QUOTE]

i. did. not. make. those. comments. i. simply. pasted. them. in. a. press. release.

i simply cant be any clearer about that. im not apologising for someone elses opinion

Helix

The 2 items quoted on xpert eleven - not posted by me



me requesting the banhammer from the league admin to do the banning myself, actually said by me

once again, ill not apologise for someone elses opinions and i should not be asked to

Trojan

Helix wrote: »

they were not boards users

yet again its being said that i said these things, i didnt.

i. did. not. make. those. comments. i. simply. pasted. them. in. a. press. release.

i simply cant be any clearer about that. im not apologising for someone elses opinion

You republished abusive comments (you are the boards user I am referring to).

Helix wrote: »

once again, ill not apologise for someone elses opinions and i should not be asked to

You're not being asked to apologise for their opinions, you're being asked to apologise for republishing them.

I was willing to argue your case but it greatly concerns me that you don't see any problem with your actions.

Helix

had i republished them on boards you might have a point, but i republished them on a third party website in a league which is played in by members of at least 4 different websites. the press releases are as relevant to them as they are to anyone else. therefore the press release was relevant to the league

how can i be banned for personal abuse when you are now acknowledging that i didnt personally abuse anyone

as an aside to this, does this now mean anyone posting in soccer about the latest dig someone involved in football has at a player/manager/team will now be banned for personal abuse, since they are republishing something which would be against the charter if they said it themselves?

and do external sites extend to meetups too? will people be banned for saying something that isnt super pleasant to someone at a boards beer?

Trojan

Helix wrote: »

had i republished them on boards you might have a point, but i republished them on a third party website

Actually if you read my post here, my point is that you have forced us to set a precedent with your actions and argument here. You have insisted that we create a rule which we are now prosecuting you with.

Helix wrote: »

how can i be banned for personal abuse when you are now acknowledging that i didnt personally abuse anyone

My support for a ban in this instance was on the basis that you republished abusive messages about a boards.ie mod, in a place that is frequented by that mod, as well as many other boards user.

Helix wrote: »

as an aside to this, does this now mean anyone posting in soccer about the latest dig someone involved in football has at a player/manager/team will now be banned for personal abuse, since they are republishing something which would be against the charter if they said it themselves?

and do external sites extend to meetups too? will people be banned for saying something that isnt super pleasant to someone at a boards beer?

Well, now that you have forced the issue and imposed the need upon us to clarify this issue, we now need to consider how to handle this. So the short answer is yes. Congratulations, you have possibly changed the way boards.ie needs to deal with 3rd party sites.

This will be my last post on this subject, for me this issue is now closed as resolution is not possible.

Helix

Trojan wrote: »

you have possibly changed the way boards.ie needs to deal with 3rd party sites.

no i havent, an absolutely mammoth overreaction to something that had nothing to do with boards at all has

DeVore

hullaballoo wrote: »

You must think we're idiots.




We're not.

Seriously. What Hulla said.

DeV.

Helix

im not sure why you are implying i think youre idiots, do you think im trying to pull a fast one on you all or something? that the quotes (from another forum, posted by other people) are in fact made up and an attempt by me to hide "personal abuse" behind another name? because i assure you, i am not, as i have already proven

by all means uphold the ban, i dont particularly care at this stage, but the fact is that boards is now treading very iffy ground by attempting to moderate not only other websites, but the opinions of non boards members. and the worst thing is that youre trying to justify it with the most twisted of logic i have ever come across

DeVore

how was it "posted by other people". You posted it.

DeV.

Helix

DeVore wrote: »

how was it "posted by other people". You posted it.

DeV.

in a discussion thread about the league in question, 2 players who do not use boards posted the quotes (there are quite a few boards users using that particular site too as far as im aware), and the discussion of kicking guanyin from the league has cropped up on more than one occasion.

since there are a sizeable number of players from the league on that board, i issued a mickey take press release on xperteleven (as guanyin had instructed 2 players to do in the xpert league thread in soccer, if you remember correctly) using quotes from the thread and discussing the topic at hand. while it may not have been relevant to players who arent members of that forum, it was still relevant to a hefty number who are and who were involved in the on thread discussions

in summation, once again, the quotes were from people playing within the league (the banhammer quote was from be, as attributed), and they were about events relevant to the league

Helix

in light of a second xpert eleven player banned from soccer, is it possible perhaps that the mod in question just doesnt "get" the banter part of the game?