TIME FOR A REVOLUTION

sink

newman10 wrote: »

Are you looking for the Revolution or do you want more PDs in Govenrment. If I remember properly the proposed the low tax no frills society and look at where that has got us.

Society should be for the greater good of all and not just a select few

Economics 101, a low tax no frills society doesn't work when you double the public wage bill in 8 years. Lower taxes should only come after public wage bill has been cut not raised.

newman10

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Tell us the list and then we will know what form of leadership you would give.

A certain Mr Hitler had an idea of how to deal with persons with a disability.

irish_bob

newman10 wrote: »

Tell us the list and then we will know what form of leadership you would give.

A certain Mr Hitler had an idea of how to deal with persons with a disability.

mr hitler was into big goverment but lets not let that fact get in the way of unhinged hysteria

Hasschu

A revolution in Ireland would be if FF lost 10% of the vote in the next election. Irish voters have taken great pride in voting for crooks in election after election since De Valera left politics. We get what we vote for and we vote for cronyism, nepotism, self serving politicians, elected representatives on the take. A country awash in Quangos, PPPs and exotic concoctions that only fertile Irish minds could conceive of. All to further enrich the entrenched political classes. Yes Sheila we will continue to support them because they are our crooks and we have faulty moral compasses. The ECB or IMF will probably take over as the economic collapse unfolds. That is the day the cream skimming will stop. The downside is it will be painful for everybody.

MrMatisse

Its defo time for a change.

Ive always voted FF but im so annoyed with them this time im voting for Joe Higgins, even though i dont agree with a lot of his policies. I just think they need the wind put up them

http://www.joehiggins.eu/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/joeeuroleafletnewcomposite1.pdf

alan4cult

Next week's local elections are not elections. It is a referendum on how competent our government is and judging by responses in this thread the truth will be told. Vote with your feet people!

irish_bob

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Its defo time for a change.

Ive always voted FF but im so annoyed with them this time im voting for Joe Higgins, even though i dont agree with a lot of his policies. I just think they need the wind put up them

http://www.joehiggins.eu/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/joeeuroleafletnewcomposite1.pdf

surely thier is another caditate whos policys you do agree with and who also isnt a member of fianna fail , would that not be a better deal for you than voting for someone whos policys you dont agree with , seems strange to go from centre left to marxist

irishcarbomb2k

Hi guys,

Well I've been reading and following people's ideas quite closely and feel it necessary to vent. First let me tell you my position, I bought a house in 06 which is probably in negative equaity at the moment, I work for a large organisation that may be laying off people very near in the future, my wife owns a small business which is quiet at the moment and I feel the pinch at the moment just like everyone else with tax rises here and property tax rumblings there.
Now at this point, some might be thinking, here we go again, another complaining post however to everyone's surprise its not.

I do believe we made some disaster mistakes in the past 3 years and agree we relied too much on a over bloated property market and an expensive government and unstable health system. We lost the run of ourselves and I'm not just blaming the government, I'm blaming everyone, including myself. I enjoyed myself when times were good and now working to cut costs when times are hard. I take responsibility for myself and know I should have heeded the warnings but went in anyway. Nobody forced to buy the house I live in, nobody put a gun to my head to live a good life, so I cannot hope that someone will 'bail' me out now. I feel that a few developers should not have been given finance in the first place if they weren't going to be responsible with this.
So why I feel obliged to vent here, is we're all responsible and talking of the IMF and returning the 80's and getting away from Ireland, is actually making me feel sorry for Ireland. I have lived in Britain, and was recently in LA and believe me, things are a hell of a lot tougher. whilst in LA I seen people being physically removed from their house for missing their mortgage by TEN DAYS. I seen miles of queues for food, it actually reminded me Somalia or dafur!! However, the one thing America does best is hope. Yes they are blaming the government, yes they feel let down by a banking system and most recently, one of the oldest carmakers in the world closing, however they still have hope.

American's on the street haven't their heads down, they are not all going 'poor me, I'm going to emigrate and get away from here' -true most of them haven't passports anyway but that's beside the point. The only way we can get out of this is belief in ourselves as a nation. It is us that are putting ourselves down, it is us as a country that is standing waiting for things to happen. If we want things to happen, lets make them happen.
We can bring this country back from the brink by believing in ourselves. For example, If you have a business idea, run with it, take the chance, use the risk. If it fails, start again. There is no one stopping it but yourself. If your complaining you've no money, you don't need it. In most cases, you only need 50 euro. Most multi nationals started with a nominal amount. Microsoft started in a garage, carphone warehouse started in a flat in London, Google was a college project..The list goes on. If you believe in it, it can happen. Take the chance, if it fails, dust yourself off and start again. For those who don't take the chance and put those who do, down. Shame on you. At least they tried. Waiting for an apocalpse might make you happy, but it certainly doesn't help the rest of us.
The celtic tiger started from an IT boom, why cannot we have a Celtic Tiger 2, what is stopping us. I can tell you now, sitting here, that no amount of complaining or fault finding will help us. It is up to us to get up and do it ourselves. If we want rid of the government, then lets vote for those who we know can help get us there. If we want more money, lets work for it rather than using our homes as ATM's. If we want a better health system, fight for it. But we will all have to pay for it.
There is a LOT of potential still in this country. I can name a few, 'Intune, muzu, havoc, openhydro,c&f wind turbines' and many more not reported but coming. I know this because as my wife runs her own business and is involved in networking, she see's them on the ground, first hand.
The difference between the eighties and now is one thing, something we use everyday and often don't realise how powerful it is. There is one thing which people use to complain, but forget that the last time we had a recession of such phenomanal proportions, didn't even exist. The one thing is the internet.
In some ways I feel that the information technology age has actually exasperated the issue as news is now much more up to date and we often read about problems even before they become problems. What this does is cause consumers to fear the future, if consumers fear the future, they won't buy, if people don't buy, there won't be business to sell, the domino affect begins.
That same problem can be turned on its head. True the inherent problems exist, but what if we started a campaign of positivity. What if we used the one resource everyone (or at least most people) has and use it to end the recession and make Ireland great.

Here is my proposals to fight for.

Fibre to the street - Ireland is a relatively small country and can be covered quite easily with fibre cable. CIE, Bord Gais and ESB all have a significant Fibre system in place, we just utilise that for business/residential. Everytime, there is a requirement to lay new pipes, (water, mains, gas, etc.) there should also be a responsibility to lay Fibre cable at the same time therefore being progressive. Every new road built should have had a fibre cable layed in conjunction. Now I know that most motorways are built, but all new projects should include this. Now unfortunatly, most houses are in sparse locations, however an idea is do what Norway is doing, to save funds, neighbourhoods are getting together and laying their own cable, therefore costs are reduced. Most villages in the country have farmers, out of work builders, with equipment. Lets utilise that, pay them a wage, a little like a management fee, but one off, invest in fibre cable at approx 5 dollars a square metre.

Our health service - I am actually in favour of Fine gaels idea of a national health plan, placing all essential equipment and resources in local health units, taking the pressure of the hospital. What we are missing is a vital helicopter ambulance service to serve all major hospitals. Investment in a air ambulance for every major centre would help alleviate the issues of local a&e.

Education - finding the best teachers, enticing the best minds to teach maths and science in schools. We need classes in web design, classes in IT networks and technology. An educational system that is adaptable to the workplace rather than focuses on subjects, people will never use.

Finally I would like to actually point out the good things the government has done

R&D - The budget in 08, actually had one good initiative, the high investment and tax incentives in R&D which has actually created jobs in the likes of Intel, HP, and ESB.

Patents rights. - in the most recent budget, the relief and allowances on capital expenditure on the purchase of patent rights will entice companies to stay in ireland

Finally whats good about the Ireland and its people

Our low corporate tax rate
we have a young population, which means a good dynamic workforce who are flexible.
very little red tape in setting up business when compared to other countries
A small open economy with english as its main language.

In finishing up, we can fix this country and bring it back to the glory days. Lets not sit back and wallow in self pity. If you want to leave Ireland, then leave on your own violition and because you want to leave, but lets make leaving Ireland the last resort. I know this is an extremely hard thing to do when times are really tough and some people are not sure where their next meal is coming from, but we will get out of this and with optimism, starts growth. Remember, when times are at the lowest ebb, it often takes something you never even thought was possible to bring a wave of growth back again.

Sorry for the long post guys, let the inevitable stripping and finding faults with everything I said begin. :P

ionix5891

unfortunately all sort of extremist nuts flourish in tough times

Ireland is ripe for the taking by some far right or far left goons (hell we already have libertas and sf rubbing their hands)

we need to be very careful and not jump from a a bad mistake to a terrible one down the road

alan4cult

ionix5891 wrote: »

unfortunately all sort of extremist nuts flourish in tough times

Ireland is ripe for the taking by some far right or far left goons (hell we already have libertas and sf rubbing their hands)

we need to be very careful and not jump from a a bad mistake to a terrible one down the road

Again.

eamonnm79

ionix5891 wrote: »

yah revolutions worked out great in other countries thru' out history :cool:

Yeah, the french revolution was a disaster, and when the Americans revolted against the British it sent them back to the stone age.

ionix5891

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Yeah, the french revolution was a disaster, and when the Americans revolted against the British it sent them back to the stone age.

and a lot of people died in the process

i am sorry but thats not acceptable :rolleyes:

af_thefragile

Before you get too excited on the thought of a revolution, i think there are a few key points you should address.

Whom are you gonna give this country to after the revolution?
What is the new political party achieve and how are you gonna ensure the new party doesn't end up caught up in the same old rhetoric of FF and FG...?
What is your vision of the new Ireland?


A lot of times the only change revolution brings is a new face into power.
This is the main flaw of governments. Its when people get overexcited about their ideals for the country. They work hard to get into power to "fix" the country.
Once they get into power, they try to fix the country by taking in more power, increasing regulation and intervention, increasing taxes, centralizing the economy.
What ends up eventually is no different from what you fought against.

This is what we're all exactly doing and this is where we are all going wrong.
We wanna find one person who can take it all under himself and fix the country. This doesn't happen. The only way to fix the country is to give it back to its people rather than taking it away from the people to try to fix it yourself.

We don't need a revolution. What we need is an awareness among the people that the nation belongs to them, not the government.

rcecil

It's called Sinn Fein

www.sinnfein.ie

dreamlogic

af_thefragile wrote: »

We don't need a revolution. What we need is an awareness among the people that the nation belongs to them, not the government.

+1

ionix5891

rcecil wrote: »

It's called Sinn Fein

www.sinnfein.ie

ahahahahhhahahhaha

oh wait your not joking? right? :rolleyes:

A Primal Nut

dreamlogic wrote: »

Why have leadership at all if it's a case of being better off ignoring them and doing all the research ourselves? People have jobs and families and are busy with their lives. The whole reason they elect leaders is to provide leadership! If they are encouraged by the government to spend and borrow, that this is good for the economy etc, it's really not fair to blame them for trusting in leadership is it!

Leadership yes, but the government isn't going to create money out of thin air. It is up to the people to make sacrifices and not spend beyond their means. If the Government try to provide leadership, such as removing free healthcare for rich over-70s, increase tax, decrease social welfare, the people and media resist at every opportuity.

If they tried harder to discourage lending during the boom, they would have been critisiced for that too. Its hard to lead when the people resist making sacrifices.

Ideally, when the country is doing well, tax would be at its highest, when people can afford it and the government would save for a rainy day. Then when a recession hits the government can reduce tax and increase spending on improving the economy. Unfortunately this is impossible in a democracy where everyone insists on lower taxes when things are going well (sure the country is doing well, why do we need to increase tax) and then when things go bad tax is increased because its seen as necessary.

Just out of interest, there is lots of talk of a revolution in this thread, but assuming it is successful, what changes are you going to make. Haven't seen anything about that yet.

A Primal Nut

mega man wrote: »

I agree, this government should be ousted. But i don't think there is any other party suitable to run the country. There all the same. there should be laws past for a council to be set up to monitor the government so this crap never happens again.

:mad::mad::mad:

Great, more bureaucracy! Aren't we trying to reduce the number of public servants?

dreamlogic

A Primal Nut wrote:

Leadership yes, but the government isn't going to create money out of thin air.

This has nothing to do with anything I said! My point was simply that the govenment did not warn people about the likelihood that the property bubble would burst and dissuade them from taking out mortgages. If they had informed people of the reality instead of burying their heads in the sand, then people who went ahead and borrowed against this advice would then be solely to blame for the consequences. They were not warned against borrowing, on the contrary they were encouraged to do so. Therefore they cannot be blamed.

If they tried harder to discourage lending during the boom, they would have been critisiced for that too. Its hard to lead when the people resist making sacrifices.

Tried harder? What do you mean? They didn't try at all to dissuade sub-prime mortgage lending and other borrowing. Therefore they encouraged it, not discouraged.

Small Change

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Great, more bureaucracy! Aren't we trying to reduce the number of public servants?

A democratically elected Seannad might be a good start

djpbarry

dreamlogic wrote: »

My point was simply that the govenment did not warn people about the likelihood that the property bubble would burst and dissuade them from taking out mortgages. If they had informed people of the reality instead of burying their heads in the sand, then people who went ahead and borrowed against this advice would then be solely to blame for the consequences. They were not warned against borrowing, on the contrary they were encouraged to do so. Therefore they cannot be blamed.

They cannot be blamed at all? If I get myself into a position whereby I am unable to repay my mortgage, I am completely blameless? You’re making out that every mortgage-holder in this country is a complete idiot

irish_bob

dreamlogic wrote: »

This has nothing to do with anything I said! My point was simply that the govenment did not warn people about the likelihood that the property bubble would burst and dissuade them from taking out mortgages. If they had informed people of the reality instead of burying their heads in the sand, then people who went ahead and borrowed against this advice would then be solely to blame for the consequences. They were not warned against borrowing, on the contrary they were encouraged to do so. Therefore they cannot be blamed.


Tried harder? What do you mean? They didn't try at all to dissuade sub-prime mortgage lending and other borrowing. Therefore they encouraged it, not discouraged.

even the goverment had warned people about borrowing to invest in property or simply buy expensive houses to live , would the people have listened , the goverment warned the people against voting NO to lisbon last year and the people still went ahead and voted NO

you can nanny the people , the people are millions of individuals who have thier own minds , they can use theese minds to decide whether or not to buy property , ive no problem the goverment telling people what they should or shouldnt do when it comes to a national crisis like the foot and mouth some years ago but not when it comes to whether or not to spend on bricks and mortar

the_syco

The name of the thread made me think of Fidel from Castro doing the "Dance Revolution" on "Robot Chicken".

=-=

There's no party that I'd give the country to. Sinn Fein could probably take it, them having a private army, and all... :rolleyes:

thebman

Small Change wrote: »

A democratically elected Seannad might be a good start

lol, I don't think it would make any difference TBH.

irish_bob wrote: »

even the goverment had warned people about borrowing to invest in property or simply buy expensive houses to live , would the people have listened , the goverment warned the people against voting NO to lisbon last year and the people still went ahead and voted NO

you can nanny the people , the people are millions of individuals who have thier own minds , they can use theese minds to decide whether or not to buy property , ive no problem the goverment telling people what they should or shouldnt do when it comes to a national crisis like the foot and mouth some years ago but not when it comes to whether or not to spend on bricks and mortar

They should have regulated the banks to warn people and the banks should have been investigating what people were claiming on mortgage forms instead of assuming they were honest people that weren't trying to borrow more than they could afford.

All parties involved are to blame, the government, the banks and those who took out the loans.

dreamlogic

irish_bob wrote:

the goverment warned the people against voting NO to lisbon last year and the people still went ahead and voted NO

You're not comparing like with like here. The taoiseach of the country told people at the time that he hadn't even read the Lisbon treaty! And yet he was pushing for a Yes vote. I don't recall any specific "warnings" against voting No. Do you?

Warning people about something which would directly affect their lives and their pockets - such as whether to go ahead with a mortgage - is completely different. In the end yes, it is the person's own choice, I'm not saying otherwise. But a person makes a choice based on the information available to them.

My point is to do with lack of leadership here. And questions the purpose of leadership if all it cares about is window dressing.

Darragh29

Here's what amazes me: 1 in 5 people would apparently STILL vote for Fianna Fail. Who and where are these people!?!?! I can't find one of them but apparently 20% of the folks I meet in any given day support FF.

thebman

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's what amazes me: 1 in 5 people would apparently STILL vote for Fianna Fail. Who and where are these people!?!?! I can't find one of them but apparently 20% of the folks I meet in any given day support FF.

Their the old folk you see about that actually turn up on voting day as opposed to about 80% of the other people.

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's what amazes me: 1 in 5 people would apparently STILL vote for Fianna Fail. Who and where are these people!?!?! I can't find one of them but apparently 20% of the folks I meet in any given day support FF.

why does that surprise you in the slightest , the majority of people in this country have always voted based on one thing , who thier family tree votes for , issues are of secondry importance , i was talking to a fianna fail voter today who told me hes so disgusted with the goverment hes not going to vote at all , this is the mindset of many fianna failers which does annoy me , il abstain from voting rather than vote for someone my dad , grandad and so forth didnt vote for

Mac daddy

Anyone else watching prime time right now?

the_syco

Mac daddy wrote: »

Anyone else watching prime time right now?

No, but if you're in Ireland, you can watch the full program here:

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1049278