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TIME FOR A REVOLUTION
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why does that surprise you in the slightest , the majority of people in this country have always voted based on one thing , who thier family tree votes for , issues are of secondry importance , i was talking to a fianna fail voter today who told me hes so disgusted with the goverment hes not going to vote at all , this is the mindset of many fianna failers which does annoy me , il abstain from voting rather than vote for someone my dad , grandad and so forth didnt vote for
Maybe now is the time for a strong Left to emerge.
Give the electorate a proper choice of Left/Right policies and maybe we can finally get rid of Civil War/Catch them all politics0 -
Maybe now is the time for a strong Left to emerge.
Give the electorate a proper choice of Left/Right policies and maybe we can finally get rid of Civil War/Catch them all politics
ive no problem with a strong left emerging , i wont be voting for them but others are entitled to , i hope the arrival of a strong left will also coincide with the arrival of a strong right , about time we had a party of the right in this country0 -
Maybe now is the time for a strong Left to emerge.
Give the electorate a proper choice of Left/Right policies and maybe we can finally get rid of Civil War/Catch them all politics
God I hope not....a return to the political equivalent of boom and bust, oscillating wildly between two extremes0 -
Small Change wrote: »God I hope not....a return to the political equivalent of boom and bust, oscillating wildly between two extremes
a return ????, when have we ever had anything but centrist goverments in this country0 -
Yes. Especially when that leadership is FF.
Let's face it, brown envelopes and dodgy money didn't only come out in the last 18 months or so.
Those people who "trusted" put thieves in charge of our money and our future and now are outraged that thieves are stealing our money.
Grow up.
FF are the 'no ideology' party their party membership vary from centre left to mid/far right. The thing that makes Fina Fail what it is, is typicly Irish cute hore pragmatism.
In short the type of atittude that Fintan O Toole hates and John Waters has deep sympathy for.
The way it seems to work is like the Mafia. 'We will make sure you dont get any hastle for letting that slurry go in the river but one day we will need you to do a favour for us. Vote for us'
I was listening to morning Ireland there last week.
They were going around Tiperary talking to local council candidates.
One FG Publican spoke of his delight in getting 200 out of 300 votes from his parish in the last local election even though he knew there were only 50 FG votes in the parish.
No one batted an eyelid.
Why would so many people abandon their traditional parties in this country parish? Irish Pragmatism. Because having a politician in the parish means that they are more likely to get a favour done.
Ideals abandoned on the alter of pragmatism, and thats if there was any in the frirst place, which I doubt.
Why is 'touching flesh' so important?
Very few people in Urban areas and virtually no one in rural areas have based there party affiliation on an ideological stance.
How can we explain the urban centredness of the PDs, the Greens or the socialists unless this is so?
Until that changes corruption will always be endemic in Irish Politics and I am afraid I dont think it ever will change.
One practical way to make a goveernment more accountable is to outlaw party whip systems and thus empower the parliment (as mentioned in Vincent Brownes excellent piece this mornings Times)
In general we are a country of Me Feiners who deserve nothing more than the pathetic excuse for democracy we have.
Contrast this with the French intellectualism, of people wo know quite well that the only way to keep a government honest is if they are a little bit scared of you.
Or the Sweedish culture of doing the right thing, for no other reason than it is the right thing.
The enlightenment never came to our shores and it shows in spades.0 -
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FF are the 'no ideology' party their party membership vary from centre left to mid/far right. The thing that makes Fina Fail what it is, is typicly Irish cute hore pragmatism.
In short the type of atittude that Fintan O Toole hates and John Waters has deep sympathy for.
The way it seems to work is like the Mafia. 'We will make sure you dont get any hastle for letting that slurry go in the river but one day we will need you to do a favour for us. Vote for us'
I was listening to morning Ireland there last week.
They were going around Tiperary talking to local council candidates.
One FG Publican spoke of his delight in getting 200 out of 300 votes from his parish in the last local election even though he knew there were only 50 FG votes in the parish.
No one batted an eyelid.
Why would so many people abandon their traditional parties in this country parish? Irish Pragmatism. Because having a politician in the parish means that they are more likely to get a favour done.
Ideals abandoned on the alter of pragmatism, and thats if there was any in the frirst place, which I doubt.
Why is 'touching flesh' so important?
Very few people in Urban areas and virtually no one in rural areas have based there party affiliation on an ideological stance.
How can we explain the urban centredness of the PDs, the Greens or the socialists unless this is so?
Until that changes corruption will always be endemic in Irish Politics and I am afraid I dont think it ever will change.
One practical way to make a goveernment more accountable is to outlaw party whip systems and thus empower the parliment (as mentioned in Vincent Brownes excellent piece this mornings Times)
In general we are a country of Me Feiners who deserve nothing more than the pathetic excuse for democracy we have.
Contrast this with the French intellectualism, of people wo know quite well that the only way to keep a government honest is if they are a little bit scared of you.
Or the Sweedish culture of doing the right thing, for no other reason than it is the right thing.
The enlightenment never came to our shores and it shows in spades.
the irish body politic and irish psyche in a nutshell , the politics of fintan o toole , ivana bacik , richard boyd barrett , joe higgins ,michael mc dowell, margaret thatcher , ronald regan will never ever take off in this country , rich or poor , just like fianna fail, irish people are deeply unidealogical which is why when i think about it , enda kenny may have the correct approach in offering the only thing the electorate deep down really want right now , fianna fail by another name0 -
I agree with you here but I don't think it's so deep that it couldn't be changed by introducing politics and sociology type subjects into the school curriculum.irish_bob wrote:just like fianna fail, irish people are deeply unidealogical
It mostly comes down to lack of education IMO.0 -
We need a Hitler.
Minus the Jew-hating, wanting to take over the world characteristics.
But really, he was a leader to unite the people. That's wht we need now more than ever. We need a charismatic, intelligent and motivated leader.
So who's up for it? Wo bist du?0 -
We need a Hitler.
Minus the Jew-hating, wanting to take over the world characteristics.
But really, he was a leader to unite the people. That's wht we need now more than ever. We need a charismatic, intelligent and motivated leader.
So who's up for it? Wo bist du?
:rolleyes: you wish to put someone forward in particular?0 -
copying and pasting (mostly) from a post i made on another board..
with regards politics, it needs a huge overhaul...
* having a few different parties is stupid, as they do not work with each other, but seem to only want to do the exact opposite of the other, so they conflict, argue, bicker and dont get any proper discussions.. is that how a business would be run??
* politics in ireland is tribal, there are only 3 parties that get many votes, and with particular regards to more rural areas, people only vote the same party all their life. its mostly the older people, and they have chosen such particular parties as it was passed down to them from their parents.. its no surprise there has been one particular party in the majority since 1927 (the year they were created).
* people seem to only join parties that are in power, thus they seem to just blend into the mix with a popular party so they can stay in power or be noticed, but it doesnt allow them really to stimulate their minds with ideas or rally people to the proper cause that they were enticed into helping the country.
* is it a surprise most politicians are teachers or solicitors, barristors etc?? they are the only people that dont seem to mind the bickering nature of politics. Not many forward thinking business person seems to join politics, certainly the higher echelons.. is it any wonder? they have ideas, they have imagination to create and experience in running a business.. but they wouldn't want to spend their time getting no where and having to choose sides and shout back and forth everyday.. seriously, you wouldnt expect a play school to be as idiotic as a a parliament!! Teachers and solicitors have no experience in running a business, so why do we entrust in them to run a country? plus, they teachers have the cheek to claim 2 pensions (whether a loop hole in the law or not, they know its unjust and they know they are acting immorally, but they do it... how can they run our country?)
my political utopia:
Id much prefer that we had an option to overturn the entire government and subdivision of the country into sides with no proper political, social, economic or suitable continues plan to govern.
Id much prefer if we didnt have a set up that promotes arguments rather than solutions.
Id much prefer there to be proper scientists and economists within a committee type setup where people sat together and discussed how its best to move forward in the long term and short term, setting goals, and speaking openly with the people to show what they are looking to do.. this would give the public a chance to let their opinions be known before major decisions are made.. basically working together is better than having sides that cannot look one another in the eye..
Brian Cowen summed up our government yesterday when he said sometimes you have to listen to the people... sometimes ??? well there you have it, he basically said that he is ignoring what we want or what is best for his or his parties ideas, because they certainly dont listen to any other parties either.... how can they make the best decisions when 99.9% of the people on this island are not obliged to give any suggestions...
and as for my reason for opposing Fianna Fail, and the structure we have in place has also been impacted by the fact that a few decades ago, Ireland became a nation that that lowered its taxes for foreign companies, so they can set up here.. Chuck Feeney helped hugely in persuading the Irish government to pump money into Education as well as his own cash.. investing in Education & lower taxes for foreign investment was no doubt a great idea, it was hugely successful... but it should only have ever been part 1 of a 2 or 3 part plan... we are the only nation in the EU that trades the vast majority of our goods outside the EU (USA), so if anything was to happen the USA our economy would collapse (warning signs when Bush took over should have been noticed).
With a largely expanding economy and educated nation comes an increase in wages, so how long was our government expecting these multinational companies to stay in Ireland?
Remember only a couple of years ago Dell contributed in excess of 5-6% of the Irish national GDP..
what should have been part 2 of the plan was to attract the now experienced and educated Irish workforce into creating their own start ups that could handle their own in the world markets, I've no doubt it can still happen, but it hasn't happened much with the exception of Trintech and Elan etc.. but the potential to invest huge amounts of effort and capital into the creation of firms to my knowledge never happened..
Fianna Fail lived in the bubble that was created, never planned for the future, and If any other political party was in power here, they might probably just have done as this crowd did..
We need to abolish these political parties with their followings akin to football team supporters, and create a new structure of governance that can look at the present and forward plan, we need to have people within the government that can ensure we are looking ahead..
If the government supported projects such as "the spirit of Ireland . org" then there is a great scope for the future. According to the persons within that project, we can end our reliance on importing power, and can in fact begin to export electricity to the European Grid..
I agree that huge tax increases were needed to get us out of this recession, but if we were managed correctly to sustain a recession, and not blow all our money then we wouldn't have had to take such drastic ad hoc measures to recover a previously successful country.
lastly, with so many people losing their jobs, where is the incentive to create new jobs??
For all revenue the tax increases that have gathered, how much of it is given to the dole / people out of work etc? it in effect cancels out what we have been taxed.
I've read reports of people wanting to start companies, but there is no support from enterprise ireland and local districts etc, as they have no money to give. The banks we bailed out wont lend.. so this country will stagnate unless the clowns that are taking home 2 pensions can have the initiative to create some jobs and breath a bit of life into the economy and people..
(apologies for such a long winded one, no time to edit.. so might be a few spelling errors etc :P)0 -
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P. Breathnach wrote: »If you don't have time to edit, then I don't have time to read your unedited draft.
apologies.. ill do my best for you in future..
btw, its been read over, mostly adjusted. however not restructured into more paragraphs.. it makes perfect sense to read.0 -
having a few different parties is stupid, as they do not work with each other, but seem to only want to do the exact opposite of the other, so they conflict, argue, bicker and dont get any proper discussions.. is that how a business would be run??
Mr. Lenin and Mr. Stalin called an they want their arguments back :rolleyes:0 -
We need a Hitler.
Minus the Jew-hating, wanting to take over the world characteristics.
But really, he was a leader to unite the people. That's wht we need now more than ever. We need a charismatic, intelligent and motivated leader.
So who's up for it? Wo bist du?
your welcome tongue in cheek contribution asid , i think we need a reagan , a thatcher would be fine but while both thatcher and reagan had the same policys , reagan didnt come across as dogmatic or overly assertive , irish people cant stand assertiveness0 -
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Mr. Lenin and Mr. Stalin called an they want their arguments back :rolleyes:
ahh now, not a dictatorship,
but if people ran as independant politicians, not affiliated to a party that is going to be always elected and so on... if there were teams of scientists, economists, business leaders and so forth that supported them.. you can have some proper dialogue by people that are really in the know, to be able to sit together and work with each other to choose the best course of action.
if they were to approach running the country like a boardroom would run a business, there are tough decisions to be made, but with the right people sitting at the table generating ideas, and working on them..
there could be a chair of the "board" that could keep topics on agenda and make sure long term projects are not sidetracked.. he could basically be a time keeper or whatnot..
anyway, you get the jist.. we need people to discuss, not bicker.
and we need to not have tribal parties0 -
still better than the 2009 fine gael celebrity spin machine. things aren't that bad, reasonable tax rates and the best welfare in europe for jos seekers.
the current upset with the gov is for the most part caused by over-lending by the banks.
this is where people get the corrupt bankers and gov mixed up. cowen and lenihan are doing just about everyting they can rite now.0 -
Did anybody read Ivan Yates in the Examiner today? Good article, but smacks a little too favourably to his old party perhaps? I do think Labour need to be kicked from Belfast to Cork and back if they think the country can afford them to go into the next election without preagreements on policy with FG. I don't think the nation can afford 6-12 months of bickering and power-mongering while the economy continues to sink after the mass destruction of FF policy. If Labour realistically see themselves in power they need to get talking fast, with whoever they feel they can best do business with. They are not going to reach government on their own. The current policy is both unsustainable and potentially very damaging.0
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I must say I was pleasantly surprised by the election results. The number of independents elected and the number of incumbents defeated shows that we are capable of changing our political stripes. The Party cream skimming machines have now got some sand in their gears. FF is wounded but not mortally and FG has some bruises and contusions. The Green derriere lickers and the Libertas misguided have been wiped out which indicates that the next round of elections will be a three way contest. There is still hope for Ireland.0
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Did anybody read Ivan Yates in the Examiner today? Good article, but smacks a little too favourably to his old party perhaps? I do think Labour need to be kicked from Belfast to Cork and back if they think the country can afford them to go into the next election without preagreements on policy with FG. I don't think the nation can afford 6-12 months of bickering and power-mongering while the economy continues to sink after the mass destruction of FF policy. If Labour realistically see themselves in power they need to get talking fast, with whoever they feel they can best do business with. They are not going to reach government on their own. The current policy is both unsustainable and potentially very damaging.
I think the way our system works best is if partys do not align before an election. Pat Rabitte made this mistake last time out and took himself from the spot light and made it a 2 horse race. The system usually punishes those who try to meddle with it (its a smarter system than we give it credit for).0 -
It's a thought, as someone else posted here. What would happen if political parties or groupings were banned by the Constitution? The people would elect
independent TDs to represent them. The TDs would then elect a government from among themselves, and would then scrutinise that government. We still retain elections every five years so that the Dáil is regularly renewed. The only problem is how would we ever get a group of independant TDs to agree about anything in the time available?
An alternative might be the Channel Islands system, where there is an elected government and a scrutiny panel, but no opposition parties.0 -
It's a thought, as someone else posted here. What would happen if political parties or groupings were banned by the Constitution? The people would elect
independent TDs to represent them. The TDs would then elect a government from among themselves, and would then scrutinise that government. We still retain elections every five years so that the Dáil is regularly renewed. The only problem is how would we ever get a group of independant TDs to agree about anything in the time available?
An alternative might be the Channel Islands system, where there is an elected government and a scrutiny panel, but no opposition parties.
Art you crazy M'er F'er do you realise what your suggesting?
Its called democracy!
Thats right the original greek form of democracy was as you just discribed. All independents who had ideas and then voted them through. Everything since then has been a dilution of this great ideal.
There is no way I would discribe the american or UK systems as Democracies.
They are democratic in nature but very poor relations of an actual democracy.
Its interesting to note that Gareth Fitzgerald has been making noises about moving to an essentially less democratic system of governance by removing Preportional rep. The big parties have tried this twice before in the history of the state. Thankfully they have lost both referendums/dai/whatever0 -
It would be better to have a true republican system with a President who could be voted in directly every four years. The Presidential candidates would then have to clearly state their policies and go through a thorough debate process and the regular voter would have the final say in who is our top leader.0
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EnigmasWhisper wrote: »Isn’t it time the Irish people took back their country from these liars and gangsters in Dail Eireann. They have consistently failed the Irish people and in my view are enemies of us all. Why are we tolerating this, what has happened to the people we once were? There is an anger today that I have not seen in a very long time on this island, but anger is not enough. What this country needs is a new Political party, a new voice, an honesty and a movement of people that will reclaim our country from these Bas**ards. Our health system is in shambles, our Legal system is an outdated joke, our economy is in tatters, and our educational system is crumbling. We tolerate this while these bas*tards treat us like FOOLS !!!!!!! Its time for a change, I’m as angry as hell and I know I’m not alone in wanting change. Change wont come from FG, Labour or any of the other pretenders . . . we must change it ourselves, demand it, it’s our right !!!!! HOW LONG MORE SHALL WE ACCEPT IT ??????
If you want to change the Government then you have your chance every five years, in what's called a General Election.
You are ignoring the fact that the current TDs in Dáil Eireann were elected by THE PEOPLE only two years ago, and have a mandate for a further three years.
If you do want change, then stand for election and see if the people support your rants.
You may also want to reflect on the fact that you live in an open, democratic society that allows you post your views without fear.0
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