Should Ireland Abandon Its Neutrality???

mega man

Please state your reasons.

O'Coonassa

We're waving guns at people in several far flung places. Hardly neutral, just hypocritical.

taram

If we abandon it completly, we'll just end up with an even bigger drain on our finances, unless ofc we manage to successfully take over a massive oil producing country without much expense or bloodshed. :P

jimmycrackcorm

O'Coonassa wrote: »

We're waving guns at people in several far flung places. Hardly neutral, just hypocritical.

He's talking about Ireland not the usa.

O'Coonassa

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

He's talking about Ireland not the usa.

Ah you're not paying attention at all.

nesf

mega man wrote: »

Please state your reasons.

Please state your own opinion and back it up. It's not sufficient to merely ask a question on this forum.

Also, moved to the main Politics forum.

marko91

yes now let our puney little country get squashed like bugs buy bigger countrys...were neutral cos we cant defend ourselves:p

heyjude

Ireland isn't neutral and its debatable whether it ever has been, it is non-alligned in that we aren't members of any military alliance such as NATO.

You can't abandon something that you've never had/been.

mal1

Yes, because no nation will notice or care.

Manic Moran

Ireland abandoned its non-aligned policy many years ago, if it ever truly had one to begin with.

Just people don't want to face the reality of the situation, and are happy enough deluding themselves into thinking Ireland is militarily independent.

NTM

Iwasfrozen

Please state your reasons.

Why don't you take the plunge first ?

turgon

I think anyone sane will admit we do rely in UK/NATO for defence, but I think that membership of Nato or anything should not be sought. It will just cost too much, and I dont feel Irish people need to be Guardians of the World.

nesf

Manic Moran wrote: »

Ireland abandoned its non-aligned policy many years ago, if it ever truly had one to begin with.

Well in WW2 we were non-aligned but provided weather reports and other services to the Allies (Allied airmen being returned to Britain while Axis airmen were interned as POWs and whatnot).

sub-x

Ireland already abandoned her Neutrality when the government allowed rendition flights into Shannon.

Liam Byrne

With the U.S. using Shannon Airport, our neutrality was sold out years ago....

It always amuses me the way people go on about North Korea or Russia or Iraq having weapons, while they're perfectly OK with the biggest warmongering administration of the last 50 years having them.

Yes, it looks like things are changing with Obama's election, but the damage is done and it's a case of reversing it now.

So the question (in my eyes) would be "can Ireland regain it's neutrality ?"

jimmycrackcorm

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Ah you're not paying attention at all.

But i am. Waving a gun is an aggressive act but carrying one is not. Irish soldiers are not undertaking any aggressive action anywhere.

mega man

I was just thinking if we joined the coalition forces in Iraq and afghanistan would it benefit or economy. Would we benefit from the spoils of war?

FoxT

Ireland is not Neutral. Economically we are tightly bound to both the US & the EU. Culturally, we are virtually a state of the US. (I believe we have more in common culturally with the US then we do with any EU country.) There is nothing wrong with this.

Neutrality is bad. It implies that as a nation we are happy to take the 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude and walk away from the moral obligation we all share as human beings, to help shape the world into a better place.

Today, we claim to be neutral, but we are not. This political schizophrenia has led the nation on the one hand, to collude in undemocratically supported kidnappings & torture ( thats what extraordinary rendition means) , while on the other, we have been miserably gutless ( along with the entire EU) in the face of the balkans crisis.

Today we have our neutrality cake and eat it,by being passive. It is morally reprehensible.

Of course, as long as we benefit from EU free money and American Foreign Direct Investment, I see no political impetus to change things.

Why deny Americans the use of Shannon airport when 100,000+ people in the country are working for american companies?
Why should we have demanded EU intervention in the Balkans when every other EU country is scared ****less? We all stood back & let NATO ( who we all like to hate ) do the dirty work.

1 sentence summary is: Nobody in Ireland cares enough about real, active, constructive neutrality because we benefit so much economically from our de fecato dual membership of both the EU & the US.

FoxT

In Iraq? In Afghanistan? Are you on crack?

markopantelic

FoxT wrote: »

Ireland is not Neutral. Economically we are tightly bound to both the US & the EU. Culturally, we are virtually a state of the US. (I believe we have more in common culturally with the US then we do with any EU country.) There is nothing wrong with this.

Neutrality is bad. It implies that as a nation we are happy to take the 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude and walk away from the moral obligation we all share as human beings, to help shape the world into a better place.

Today, we claim to be neutral, but we are not. This political schizophrenia has led the nation on the one hand, to collude in undemocratically supported kidnappings & torture ( thats what extraordinary rendition means) , while on the other, we have been miserably gutless ( along with the entire EU) in the face of the balkans crisis.

Today we have our neutrality cake and eat it,by being passive. It is morally reprehensible.

Of course, as long as we benefit from EU free money and American Foreign Direct Investment, I see no political impetus to change things.

Why deny Americans the use of Shannon airport when 100,000+ people in the country are working for american companies?
Why should we have demanded EU intervention in the Balkans when every other EU country is scared ****less? We all stood back & let NATO ( who we all like to hate ) do the dirty work.

1 sentence summary is: Nobody in Ireland cares enough about real, active, constructive neutrality because we benefit so much economically from our de fecato dual membership of both the EU & the US.

You have got to be kidding me. Watching CSI Miami makes us no more culturally alligned with the USA than a Swede for instance. You know Swedish have that same opinion? They think they are 'close' to Americans because they consume all of its culture.

Anyway due to history we have most in common with the UK, another EU country so you point is void.

mega man

FoxT wrote: »

In Iraq? In Afghanistan? Are you on crack?

then why are the us and uk in iraq and afghanistan? have they a moral obligation to be in that country?
No they are there for the oil hence the money.

sink

FoxT wrote: »

to collude in undemocratically supported kidnappings & torture ( thats what extraordinary rendition means) ,

As if democratically supported kidnappings & torture are all fine and dandy.

I agree with the overall arch of your post put just wanted to point the superfluousness of including the word "undemocratically".

Sand

Neutrality was a short term policy to avoid getting bombed by the Luftwaffe when we had no air force, no air defence and no particular will to align with the United Kingdom.

Its been elevated to some holy cow as an excuse not to bother taking national defence seriously ( or funding it). For example: 70 years on we still have no air force and no air defence.

Instead, we allow China to dictate when and where we can act as peacekeepers. So we're forced to withdraw from UN peacekeeping missions when China wants to punish someone for diplomatically recognising Taiwan.

KerranJast

Ireland's neutrality has been gone for years, possibly was never there. Right now we are at war with the Taliban in Afghanistan and in a state of uneasy truce with North Korea. The mission in Iraq is also being carried out with our approval.

Terrontress

If both Ireland and Switzerland were to be invaded in the morning by a hostile force, we'd see what neutrality means. In Switzerland, every male is obliged to keep a firearm in case of such an occurrence. In Ireland it would be "Please help us UK".

D-Boy

Have to agree with a Sand i feel the 'neitrality' is a nice excuse not to bother with military funding in particular an air force and as recent history has shown air supremacy is THE most important thing.
No air force means the army is pointless lets not forget we relied on the RAF to interdict any potential rogue planes after 9/11

FoxT

Sink - Arrghh - you are spot on. I read the post before I submitted it & somehow the 'undemocratically' word slipped through.

markopantelic - I think that you are oversimplifying. We share a common language with the US. We consume US TV programmes, movies, music, etc., and we have some kind of grasp of US history.
How many of us enjoy (French/German/Spanish/Portuguese + Eastern EU coutries ) movies/poetry/novels etc?

I agree that we may be culturally closer to the UK than the US - But the UK is only about 10% of the EU population. The point I was trying to make was that we arent that close culturally to the EU as a whole.

Terrontress

D-Boy wrote: »

Have to agree with a Sand i feel the 'neitrality' is a nice excuse not to bother with military funding in particular an air force and as recent history has shown air supremacy is THE most important thing.
No air force means the army is pointless lets not forget we relied on the RAF to interdict any potential rogue planes after 9/11

Thing is with an Irish Air Force, by the time you'd have a jet scrambled, an enemy plane could be from east to west three times. Anti aircraft weapons would be a much better solution to an aerial threat than spending a few billion on tomcats.

FoxT

This is more to do with military tactics than neutrality - but Air superiority is certainly not sufficient to win a war. ( Vietnam? Iraq? American war of independence? World War 1? Franco Prussion war? Korean War? ). To gain and hold territory you must have superior force on the ground AND the support of the natives. Ireland didnt win the war of independence through air superiority - it won it because native support made it too expensive for the brits to hold on to. Thats how the US won their independence as well, though of course the long supply line helped. War is complex & there is no guaranteed 1 size fits all solution.

Swiss model: If every Irish citizen was issued a firearm ( or permitted to buy one) what would happen in Limerick? Or Darndale?

True Neutrality is about exerting moral (primarily) force to try & achieve good. We are a small country & so dont exert much force globally. The problem is that we dont even attempt to. The reason is - how many US multinational jobs would Ireland be prepared to lose or forego as a price for no kidnappings via Shannon? That's a hard question that nobody in Ireland has had the guts to find an answer to.

Terrontress

FoxT wrote: »

Swiss model: If every Irish citizen was issued a firearm ( or permitted to buy one) what would happen in Limerick? Or Darndale?

There are those who argue that the accompanying compulsory military training and discipline would negate a lot of the problems in many Irish neighbourhoods.

sink

Terrontress wrote: »

There are those who argue that the accompanying compulsory military training and discipline would negate a lot of the problems in many Irish neighbourhoods.

I'm not sure training angry disaffected youths to shoot with greater accuracy is a good idea.