Ireland a disgrace in animal welfare

Paul91

Discodog wrote: »

The ISPCA & local SPCA's are registered charities not businesses.

the CSPCA is not a registered charity - the ISPCA is CHY 5619

Paul91

Discodog wrote: »

I had heard something like this. So does this reduce or affect the powers that the CSPCA have ?. No wonder people won't support SPCA's when this is going on.

you need to read my other posts to understand why the ISPCA wants nothing to do with the CSPCA -

Slugs

Paul91 wrote: »

you need to read my other posts to understand why the ISPCA wants nothing to do with the CSPCA -

Maybe they don't want anything to do with the ISPCA?

Paul91

Slugs wrote: »

Maybe they don't want anything to do with the ISPCA?

you ever been in the CSPCA in Mahon?

Slugs

Ages ago, found them to be helpful enough. Haven't been in over 4 years though. Might have changed in that space of time. I can only go on what I know. From what I heard, they were unwilling to be associated with the ISPCA as they felt it was too much of a business.
u kno
I suppose it depends on who you are dealing with

annefitzy

Slugs wrote: »

Aye, for the reason, they found the ISPCA was run too much like a business, and wasn't it the CSPCA broke contact with the ISPCA? didn't realise it was the other way around :S

Slugs I think you need to get your information correct before you post, this was in the papers yrs ago please read up on it before you post

Slugs

Why look it up when you can be corrected while posting

Paul91

Slugs wrote: »

Ages ago, found them to be helpful enough. Haven't been in over 4 years though. Might have changed in that space of time. I can only go on what I know. From what I heard, they were unwilling to be associated with the ISPCA as they felt it was too much of a business.
u kno
I suppose it depends on who you are dealing with

so where did you hear they didn't want to be associated with the ISPCA - was that by the CSPCA?

that would be the old place near the bus station then - not the purpose built place in Mahon - that opens from 9am till 4pm Monday to Friday and closes for lunch for an hour - not the most helpful times for people looking for their pets or families looking to rehome

Slugs

aye, it was the place by the bus station. We went there for a CSPE project. And from what I can recall, it came up in conversation about their affiliation with the ISPCA and one person (who isn't a reliable source, reinforced by your comments) made the point that the CSPCA didn't want to deal with the ISPCA.

Hellrazer

Crafty-Chel wrote: »

people who can drown puppies and cats are disgusting and should have been drown at birth themselves.

That there is a clear breach of the rules ie advocating violence to anyone or anything.

With regards to the rest of this thread myself,the other mods and the admins are watching it carefully.
Any more libelous posts and there will be permanent bans issued without warnings given

Our man in Havana

Discodog wrote: »

The ISPCA & local SPCA's are registered charities not businesses.

Registered charities are businesses. Their accounts are on public view at the companies office.

Discodog wrote: »

So does this reduce or affect the powers that the CSPCA have ?.

What powers? SPCAs do not have any legal powers exceeding that of a private citizen.

Paul91 wrote: »

the CSPCA is not a registered charity - the ISPCA is CHY 5619

SPCA is not a protected term. I can setup a SPCA in the morning. If I pay the companies office my €30 I can use the name.

I do not like where this thread is headed. Anyone posting libellous posts will be permanently banned.

Slugs

In light of the entry of the Mods, might be in the best interest of the thread to return to the original topic, the failure of the Irish system to properly address Animal Cruelty

Discodog

Bond-007 wrote: »

Registered charities are businesses. Their accounts are on public view at the companies office.

Yes but by it's very nature a charity is a not for profit organisation. One of the main reasons for establishing charity status & registering for a number is the PR value of being perceived as genuine.

All of this just supports my view that the situation is not conducive to reducing animal cruelty.

Slugs

Discodog wrote: »

Yes but by it's very nature a charity is a not for profit organisation. One of the main reasons for establishing charity status & registering for a number is the PR value of being perceived as genuine.

All of this just supports my view that the situation is not conducive to reducing animal cruelty.

Just wanted to highlight that, not saying Any SPCA's aren't genuine, but a lot of charities are there for the purpose of money.

And to be honest, I haven't seen any Major campaign by the ISPCA in the last number of years (I don't watch Tv, so I could be wrong :P). So something does need to be changed.

Paul91

i think (returning to OT) the first step is to change the legislation - which i understand is in the pipeline - so it's up to us foks to make sure it goes through

WalkingDude

By "Rescues" I mean private individuals & organisations that rescue & rehome animals such as PAWs & EGAR. SPCA's I assume are affiliated to the ISPCA but I do not know how they differ in real terms but I will be finding out.

You seem to think me constantly critical of SPCA's but if you read some of my posts you will see that I have often supported them against criticism.

Discodog - I merely addressed incorrect comments made by a number of people, one of which was yours. As Bond 007 has already advised I could set up "WalkingDude Loves Animals Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals", AKA WLASPCA. SPCA is often used simply as a suffix. All SPCAs are independent organisations in their own right.

A self-proclaimed "rescue" was prosecuted for cruelty last year - Would it be right for me to tar all rescues with the same brush? I think not.

Similarly, it isn't right to make statements about SPCAs in general when people will adopt attitudes like this:

Why look it up when you can be corrected while posting

Discodog

As someone who has spent a lot of time with AWB submissions I agree but all it will do is reduce the level at which an act is deemed to be cruel. It will not grant any new powers & by the time the like of Matty McGrath has finished there will not be much left of it. Already hare coursing & probably puppy farming have gone & that's before the Bill is even published.

In reality it is unlikely to get through before an election & then we have a huge problem in that the Greens are the only party backing it & they may disappear from government. In the long term the biggest change would come about if we could get basic animal welfare on the school curriculum. When I was a child we had school pets & everyone learnt the importance of animal care. Now thanks to health & safety etc much of that has gone.

WalkingDude

As someone who has spent a lot of time with AWB submissions I agree but all it will do is reduce the level at which an act is deemed to be cruel. It will not grant any new powers & by the time the like of Matty McGrath has finished there will not be much left of it. Already hare coursing & probably puppy farming have gone & that's before the Bill is even published.

In reality it is unlikely to get through before an election & then we have a huge problem in that the Greens are the only party backing it & they may disappear from government. In the long term the biggest change would come about if we could get basic animal welfare on the school curriculum. When I was a child we had school pets & everyone learnt the importance of animal care. Now thanks to health & safety etc much of that has gone.

Quite right Discodog ... but you're starting to sound dangerously like an SPCA ... LOL

The SPCA's policy is to educate

My whole point of getting involved here was to make sure people could read accurate information.

If Paul hadn't been here to correct Slugs, readers could have come away from this thread quoting his versions of events to others ... and so the whispers spread!!

Laterz

Discodog

It is becoming abundantly clear to me that the best answer could be to dissolve the ISPCA & all the SPCA's & start over again. I know a few dedicated individuals who, based on what they have achieved to date, could do a very good job. There has to be one ISPCA with regional branches but each one is still the ISPCA as they do with the RSPCA in England. The public perception is that each local SPCA uses that term as it is affiliated to the ISPCA ie a local branch. This gives them public credibility. For example my local paper give free space to the local SPCA but not to other rescues. The ISPCA then need some powers. I recently witnessed a fiasco where a dog had been left in hot car. The local SPCA inspector arrived & could do nothing until the guards arrived. Even then it was the returning owner that probably saved the dogs life as the Guards were not keen to break in. In the UK most RSPCA inspectors would of just smashed a window knowing full well that the Police would back them up.

Yes rescues can be guilty of cruelty. I once witnessed conditions at an SPCA rescue that would of warranted prosecution in the UK. Having said that many of the existing rescues keep their animals in far from perfect conditions but it is better than the alternative & many rehome quickly.

I agree that in theory any of us can become self appointed inspectors but would the Guards help us in the way that they help SPCA's & would a Judge value our evidence as highly ?.

But as Bond has pointed out the accounts are available for all to see. Could this be as revealing as TD's expenses ?. As there are no such thing as registered charities, except for their tax status, anything is possible. There is no formal monitoring of registered charities like the Charity Commission in the UK. But the government give grants to SPCA's & rescues that they deem appropriate.

Beware WalkingDude of what you accept as accurate information. Some of that published regarding animal welfare has proved to be very inaccurate. The "Boss" got it right: "Trust none of what you hear & less of what you see ".

As for whispers the truth may be more ridiculous than any whisper could dream up.

WalkingDude

I'm going to bed now but ......................

It is becoming abundantly clear to me that the best answer could be to dissolve the ISPCA & all the SPCA's & start over again. I know a few dedicated individuals who, based on what they have achieved to date, could do a very good job. There has to be one ISPCA with regional branches but each one is still the ISPCA as they do with the RSPCA in England.

We can't turn the clock back

I agree that in theory any of us can become self appointed inspectors but would the Guards help us in the way that they help SPCA's & would a Judge value our evidence as highly ?.

Probably not, depends on where you are.

But as Bond has pointed out the accounts are available for all to see. Could this be as revealing as TD's expenses ?.

Dunno, have a look.

Beware WalkingDude of what you accept as accurate information. Some of that published regarding animal welfare has proved to be very inaccurate. The "Boss" got it right: "Trust none of what you hear & less of what you see ".

As for whispers the truth may be more ridiculous than any whisper could dream up.

I never speak of what I don't know.

Discodog

Ireland is turning the clock back in many respects - wait for the budget. If you NEVER speak of what you don't know then you are blessed as a total genius or stay pretty quiet.

Hopefully more people will start supporting the animal charities & rescues that we all know & trust to use our money wisely. It would be interesting to know how much donations to the ISPCA are have increased over time. To me if a rescue can rehome over a thousand dogs with virtually no money or support then how well could they do with some of the grant money currently being allocated to SPCA's ?.

It does seem a bit wrong that because a rescue is known as the SPCA it gets far more in donations than other rescues. I have recently been sending out fundraising info & I often get the reply that "we donate to the local SPCA". At least I can guarantee that with the dedicated rescues every single cent goes on the animals. There are no new vans, offices, & salaries to use up the cash.

We could end up with a them & us, a bit like they have in Scotland with everyone wrongly assuming that if they donate to the RSPCA the money will go to Scotland. The SSPCA are not happy bunnies & have even put up big posters telling people not to donate to the RSPCA.

Paul91

It would be good if the ISPCA governed whom could use the SPCA accronym and only grant it to those groups worthy, as an addition to the posts I discovered after my run in with the CSPCA that they are an agent of the Council, and have a funding from Cork County Council - and the council's meeting minutes make interesting reading

http://www.corkcorp.ie/ourservices/corporateaffairs/minutesofordinarymeetings/minutes2007/120207.pdf

MINUTES OF ORDINARY MEETING OF CORK CITY COUNCIL

HELD ON MONDAY, 12th FEBRUARY 2007

The Control of Dogs Acts 1986 and 1992 provide for the licensing and control of
dogs, together with various regulations brought in since then. The Control of
Dogs Regulations 1998 cover leashing and muzzling of 10 named dog types such
as the American Pit Bull Terrier, German Shepherds, Rottweilers etc. These dogs
are not permitted to be in a public place unless securely muzzled and being led by

a sufficiently strong chain or leash.

The CSPCA acts as an agent for the City Council in carrying out its functions
under the Control of Dogs Acts. A full time mobile Dog Warden is employed who
responds on a daily basis to complaints from the public in relation to dogs and
who also seizes stray or dangerous dogs regularly. On average, over 250 stray
dogs are seized each year with a further 300 surrendered or collected by the
Warden.

All dogs entering the Animals Home are now micro chipped to assist with future
identification. Since recent incidents highlighted in the media the Animals Home
have observed an increase in the number of people surrendering dogs to them
which have been classified under the 1998 Regulations. All such dogs surrendered

are not re homed, nor is any such seized dog since January.

interesting then that they gave me a pregnant German Shepherd without micro chipping - and yes i have reported this to Cork Council and apart from a reply to my email i have heard nothing

boomerang

Any group can attach the suffix "SPCA" to their name. It does not mean they are a sub-division of the ISPCA. They may not even be affiliated to the ISPCA.

My understanding is that before they built the National Animal Centre in Longford, the ISPCA distributed a lot of their funds to smaller rescue groups in the form of grants. This is why a lot of small rescues around the country affiliated to the ISPCA. I suppose it also made sense to have all the rescues represented and coming under the umbrella of a national body that could advocate for better animal welfare standards in this country.

There is no clear distinction between "rescues" on the one hand and "SPCAs" on the other. Some of the SPCAs are run on a shoestring and do fantastic work, both in investigating cruelty and in rehoming unwanted/abandoned animals.

That said, many of the SPCAs do get flak because some of the regional SPCAs are contracted to operate the local authority dog pounds. It's felt in some cases that these SPCAs don't have a genuine interest in animal welfare.


I don't think it's fair to criticise regional groups for not investigating more cruelty cases - there are many barriers in the way and it is so disheartening. You need a guard on your side who has a love of animals and is willing to intervene. Most guards would put animal welfare well down their list of priorities and I can understand that given the pressures they work under. If you report an instance of abuse or neglect it can be pot-luck. Get one guard on the phone and they'll do their best to help, get another guard on the phone and they'll just fob you off because they're not interested. In my experience, there isn't great awareness amongst the gardai of the animal welfare legislation, or what their obligations are.

Then, if a case is taken to court, the penalties are so light, it is totally dispiriting. Especially given the costs involved to the rescue in taking the case.

The active rescues are flat-out answering the phones, going here there and everywhere to pick up animals, minding the animals in their care, fundraising... There's never enough time to do it all.

Edited to add: Bear in mind that rescue groups themselves have no authority to intervene directly in cases or cruelty or neglect. All they can do is follow up on reports, investigate quietly (with no right of access to private property where these animals are being kept) and monitor the situation. If the owner of the animal(s) is breaking the law, the rescue group can notify the gardai, who may or may not investigate the complaint. With the current legislation offering such flimsy protection to animals, in most cases the owner of the animal(s) is acting within their rights, even if by your or my standards they are not giving their animals proper care and attention.

Our man in Havana

The problem is the lack of regulation.

The ISPCA is not a statutory body. It has no powers other that that of a private citizen. Their "inspectors" have no right of entry onto private property. The same goes for any animal rescue whether they use the SPCA suffix or not.

Bear in mind that rescue groups themselves have no authority to intervene directly in cases or cruelty or neglect.

Not even the ISPCA have that authority.

The government should establish a statutory body (not necessarily the ISPCA) with statutory powers to investigate cruelty cases. But in the current climate I doubt the will exists to take on such a venture.

WalkingDude

If you NEVER speak of what you don't know then you are blessed as a total genius or stay pretty quiet.

I do know alot but, if I don't know the facts on something, I do my research before I open my mouth.

For example:

To me if a rescue can rehome over a thousand dogs with virtually no money or support then how well could they do with some of the grant money currently being allocated to SPCA's ?.

Below is a link to a list of the animal welfare organisations that received grants from the Department of Agriculture in 2008, 33 0f which are SPCAs. A total of 110 bodies received grants in 2009. This would suggest that approx 70% of the groups receiving grants do not use the SPCA suffix.

http://www.anvilireland.ie/fulcrum.html?ep=62

Apart from the obvious exceptions of the ISPCA and DSPCA there does not appear to be any major discrepancies between the amounts received by what you would differentiate as SPCAs and rescues. The amount received reflects the quality of the application made to the Department.

Our man in Havana

Some of those are not registered charities.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/authorised-charities.html

GinaH

I have often thought of changing our name to PAWS SPCA but as we are a dog Sanctuary, the letters 'SPCA' covers all animals and that would be a problem as we dont have the facilities. Although, over the years, we have rescued Swans, A horse & A fox to mention a few.

To be an SPCA is financially lucrative there is no doubt about it.

<snip>

PS: To my knowledge, the CSPCA is disaffiliated from the ISPCA

doctor evil

Discodog wrote: »

RSPCA in England.

I hope we don't end up with anything like the above! No charity should be politicised. It unnerves when they make their uniform very similar to the police force, they are trying to trick people into thinking they have powers that they don't have. I'm on a few UK based forums and the general consensus is that they will go for easy targets, you certainly won't see them trying to get a prosecution against the likes of travellers.
<Snip>

WalkingDude

I hope we don't end up with anything like the above! No charity should be politicised. It unnerves when they make their uniform very similar to the police force, they are trying to trick people into thinking they have powers that they don't have. I'm on a few UK based forums and the general consensus is that they will go for easy targets, you certainly won't see them trying to get a prosecution against the likes of travellers.

The RSPCA uniformed Inspectorate was formed prior to the establishment of the first UK police force (the Met I think). So, if anything, the police copied the RSPCA. Most UK police forces now wear black and white uniforms while the RSPCA stuck with navy so they are easier to distinguish now.

Certainly, the purpose of the uniform is to lend an air of authority to the wearer in order to maximise the chance of the person to whom the Inspector has called complying with any instructions are issued.

If the result is improved animal welfare, what's the problem with that? Some Irish SPCAs wear uniforms similar to the Gardai for the same reasons.

And the RSPCA do not pick on easy targets. They regularly prosecute travellers, and have taken prosecutions against dangerous criminals involved in dog fighting, prominent dog breeders and policemen.

Discodog

So what would stop a rescue using the letters SPCA in a town that already had an SPCA ?.

I know of a rescue who wanted to call themselves The (name of town) Animal Rescue. The local SPCA threatened them with legal action & they had to change the name.

WD (I nearly added 40 !) As someone who has an involvement with ANVIL I have all their reports & the latest grant figures & pound stats. The question I posed was say for example I (as grant supremo) gave an SPCA's grant to PAWS ( here's hoping Gina !) would they achieve more with that money ?.

The quality of the application should not be the only factor. You can hardly expect Mrs Catlady who has a house full & rehomes hundreds each year to submit as good an application as a SPCA. Yet she may use grant money very efficiently. She definitely wont go out & buy a new van, rent an office or pay herself a salary.