Political Accountability for the Irish Gulag

Hillel

Hillel wrote: »

It is difficult for most of us to acknowledge the full extent of the cruelty and corruption and the very heart of Irish political and church life. To do so, forces all of us to accept that we too played our part in the gulag.

The Raven. wrote: »

Once again the indiscriminate use of the term ‘we’ raises its dubious head to point an indomitable finger of blame at the whole of Irish society. Once more the blame gets shifted from the guilty to the innocent.

Yes, I do believe that Irish Society as a whole was to blame for the worst excesses of the past. It has taken this enquiry to get any public acceptance of the scale and intent of what went on. It is simply too easy to blame the religious orders as if they operated in a different society to ours. We did not know the detail, but we certainly knew that there were grounds for substantial concern. Then, when details did start to emerge, there was little public outcry or support for the victims.

The Raven. wrote: »

Those who have suffered do not forget that suffering. They are extremely unlikely to have to engage in ‘stripping away years of self-denial of the abuse’. That suffering leaves an indelible mark, which is always close to the forefront of their minds, constantly resurfacing throughout their lives.

I agree with you and unreservedly withdraw that comment. (It was guided by the increase in counselling requests, following the publication of the abuse report.)

The Raven. wrote: »

The only thing that is unacceptable here is the relentless scourge of religious tyranny. I use the term ‘we’ here to describe my own experience, and that of my peers, of religious physical and mental torture in Catholic day schools. It is highly disturbing and grossly offensive to be accused of unacceptable ‘inaction’ against this regime of cruelty and humiliation, in light of the fact that we were innocent children at the mercy of an all-powerful repressive force, totally beyond our control. We complained, we cried, we shouted, we screamed!! We were silenced. What more do you want? BLOOD ???

Yes, it was religious tyranny, but also state tyranny. People of power and influence, at best, turned their backs and walked away.
Of course children were at the mercy of a sadistic regime. I carry my own demons from my years of hell in Catholic schools. Sadism was rife, and it was not just the clergy and religious orders. But, as an adult I should have demanded action and insisted that the conditions that fostered such a cesspool were addressed. There are many reasons why I didn't, but I cannot claim I didn't know.
But it still goes on, and we can no longer blame the Catholic Church. Hundreds of children have gone missing from HSE facilities in the 2000's. Many are never found and are widely believed to have been trafficked into the sex trade. Where's the public outcry? Where's the demands that heads roll and proper care be provided?

DadaKopf

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not so sure about that. It probably has more to do with the lack of concrete information about them. It wasn't until the 1960s when the true extent of the Gulags began to leak out into the Western mainstream and it shocked even the left. What brought the awful Gulag system to popular prominence were Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's novels, particularly One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. A fantastic novel in how it crafts the gulag as a microcosm of wider Stalinist Russia of the time. But the information about the Gulag system has really only begun emerging since the 1980s.

But this thread is about the Irish case.

rant_and_rave

Deleted User wrote: »

The Catholic Church until the mid 80's held tremendous power in the Republic.

If the population of Eire up to the mid 1980s had been 90% Mormon then I am sure that polygamy would have been legal. The Mormon Church abolished polygamy in 1890 but is still practiced. It was not until 2003 that the Utah Legislature approved a tougher criminal sanction for men who take young girls as their polygamist wives.

The USA has had separation of Church and State and a secular constitution since it's foundation but this does not disbar Religious groups with large amounts of popular support from shaping the law to reflect the values of their own Churches. Twenty six states have voted to ban gay marriage. These states have high numbers of conservative evangelical Christian voters. Conservative societies elect conservative governments who enact conservative laws. The electorate approved the use of corporal punishment in Irish Schools because they believed in the efficacy of corporal punishment. Irish society had Victorian attitudes to sex outside marriage. Sexual imagery was banned. Single mothers were stigmatized and their children were placed in orphanages and industrial schools where many were abused by members of religious orders. The cover up by the Religious who have subsequently proved to be secretive and unaccountable is a separate issue. If the Industrial schools had been run by the State then there may have been minimal or no sex abuse and less corporal punishment but they would still have been very harsh environments.

This is quote is taken from a piece about polygamy in Utah and how the authorities are struggling to deal with it. Maybe we can learn some lessons.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy69.html

Allen adds: "We are in a faith-based environment that holds ancestors in high esteem. To deal with polygamy properly, we have to say that what our ancestors created has led to pretty horrific crimes for us now. How do you resolve that?"

rant_and_rave

The Raven. wrote: »

The only thing that is unacceptable here is the relentless scourge of religious tyranny. I use the term ‘we’ here to describe my own experience, and that of my peers, of religious physical and mental torture in Catholic day schools. It is highly disturbing and grossly offensive to be accused of unacceptable ‘inaction’ against this regime of cruelty and humiliation, in light of the fact that we were innocent children at the mercy of an all-powerful repressive force, totally beyond our control. We complained, we cried, we shouted, we screamed!! We were silenced. What more do you want? BLOOD :rolleyes:???

Raven.... there are thousands of middle aged ex public school boys in Britain who still have physical scars from the thrashings they received from sadistic house masters. Their parents paid thousands for the privilege of having their children beaten. Different times. Different values.

Mr.Micro

donegalfella wrote: »

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I read that book in stages interspersed with lighter reading as it was so grim and in comparison what happened in Ireland was not not even close. Having said that it in no way condones or lessens the grotesque treatment of children by sadistic perverted so called religious brutes who had so much power over these unfortunate children.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Hillel

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I read that book in stages interspersed with lighter reading as it was so grim and in comparison what happened in Ireland was not not even close.

The title of the thread was “Political Accountability for the Irish Gulag”. Why the ongoing attempts to downplay what happened? Anyway, back on topic.....

Assigning political accountability is not a matter of raking over the coals, political point scoring, or plain old fashioned vengence. Rather it is necessary to ensure that politicians never again neglect their responsibilities in so cavalier a fashion.

The Executive Summary to the The Commission Report, states

3. The deferential and submissive attitude of the Department of Education towards the Congregations compromised its ability to carry out its statutory duty of inspection and monitoring of the schools. The Reformatory and Industrial Schools Section of the Department was accorded a low status within the Department and generally saw itself as facilitating the Congregations and the Resident Managers.
6. The system of inspection by the Department of Education was fundamentally flawed and incapable of being effective.

The above would be of concern, were it only a picture from a long past age. Instead, the ongoing failure of the government to protect the vulnerable in society is well documented. Children going missing from care is only one such example. Politicians and public officials have to know that they will be held accountable, including the rigour of the law, where they demonstrably fail to fulfil their duty.

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

rant_and_rave

Hillel wrote: »

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

No. I and most others would agree with this. We can start by putting the abusers on trial. The Courts can request documents from the relevant Government departments which will prove or disprove a cover up by the State.

Mr.Micro

Hillel wrote: »

The title of the thread was “Political Accountability for the Irish Gulag”. Why the ongoing attempts to downplay what happened? Anyway, back on topic.....

you forgot to quote the rest of my post which puts my whole post in context

Having said that it in no way condones or lessens the grotesque treatment of children by sadistic perverted so called religious brutes who had so much power over these unfortunate children.

Hillel wrote: »

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

Like that is going to happen overnight in Ireland? Not weeks ago abuse of mentally ill people in terrible conditions and Leas cross a few years ago. I wont hold my breath for accountability in Ireland.

Hillel

Hillel wrote: »

I don't really give a monkeys whether neglect on this scale is due to plain old politicking, laziness, or an entirely improper “deferential and submissive attitude” towards clergy and religious orders. I want the message to go out, loud and clear, that accountability is expected and, where necessary, will be enforced. Am I alone in Boards with this view??

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Like that is going to happen overnight in Ireland? Not weeks ago abuse of mentally ill people in terrible conditions and Leas cross a few years ago. I wont hold my breath for accountability in Ireland.

Leas Cross, is just another example of the state failing its citizens. I have family experiences, equally traumatic. Accountability will only happen if there is a groundswell of public opinion to make it happen. So far most of the emphasis has been on the perpetuators, nursing home owners, Catholic Church, lay teachers, whatever. The state was/is responsibile for creating the conditions where abuse could fester with relative impunity. One, or more, ministers in the dock would concentrate minds wonderfully.

Mr.Micro

Hillel wrote: »

Leas Cross, is just another example of the state failing its citizens. I have family experiences, equally traumatic. Accountability will only happen if there is a groundswell of public opinion to make it happen. So far most of the emphasis has been on the perpetuators, nursing home owners, Catholic Church, lay teachers, whatever. The state was/is responsibile for creating the conditions where abuse could fester with relative impunity. One, or more, ministers in the dock would concentrate minds wonderfully.

I agree. There has been some legislation at least to protect old people in homes and more inspections and some laid down care standards. Any legislation is only effective if it is policed and enforced and breaches prosecuted properly.

Acacia

donegalfella wrote: »

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I will certainly have a look for that book you recommended. I suppose because the Holocaust has received so much media attention over the past fifty years, people associate it with the highest forms of cruelty and inhumanity and not many people would be as familiar with gulags. In school, for example, we were not told much more than they were forced labor camps (which is where the association with the industrial schools comes in, in my mind anyway).

Fluffybums

The Findings of the Ryan Commission are truely horrifying in what was supposed to be a civilised christian country. The ISPCC, Government and Guards all allowed it to go on. However the results were hardly that surprising - I read the God Squad at least 10 years ago and that detailed the experiences of one inmate. I find it difficult to believe that both parties involved in the compensation deal did not know what had happened, the government guy may not have known the full scale but the CORI representatives almost certainly did (the executive summary indicates that there had been several reports over the years). The report did not cover the Magdelane Laudries, is there one due on that or has that already been done?

What I find amazing is that Louise O'Keefe lost her case because the department of education is NOT responsible for what goes on in schools. Does anyone else find this disturbing?
Who is responsible for what goes on in schools (90% of which are still under the patronage of the church of Rome)?
As parents need insurance for each child attending school - no one acts in loco parentis, dose that mean that while the children are at school the parents are responsible for what happens despite their absence? In which case, can a school object if a parent takes that responsibility seriously and insists on staying with the child during the school day? After all, it is illegal to leave a child under 14(?) alone in the house in the absence of a responsible adult.

Hillel

Fluffybums wrote: »

What I find amazing is that Louise O'Keefe lost her case because the department of education is NOT responsible for what goes on in schools. Does anyone else find this disturbing?
Who is responsible for what goes on in schools

I find it shameful and disturbing.

The government has devolved responsibility for schools to local Boards of Management. However, many members of these boards are enthusiastic amateurs with limited management or educational experience. In my opinion, the main function of BOM's, as currently constituted, is to act as a buffer between the Dept of Education and parents/teachers/pupils. They have full legal responsibility, but limited real power. Teachers pay and conditions are centrally negotiated while education standards are the responsibility of the Dept of Ed.

Fluffybums

Hillel, thanks for the information I assume that the boards of management are largely composed of members of the public trying to do the right thing. If so Louise O'Keefe probably didn't sue them as they would end up loosing their homes for meerly being consciencious members of the public.

All seems a little like amateur night to me.

Hillel

Fluffybums wrote: »

Hillel, thanks for the information I assume that the boards of management are largely composed of members of the public trying to do the right thing. If so Louise O'Keefe probably didn't sue them as they would end up loosing their homes for meerly being consciencious members of the public.

All seems a little like amateur night to me.

The typical composition of the board of management, for schools with more than one teacher, is

• Two direct nominees of the patron
• Two parents of children enrolled in the school (one mother and one father) elected by the parents
• The principal
• One other teacher elected by the teaching staff.
• Two extra members agreed by the representatives of the patron, teachers and parents.Further Information:
  http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/boards-of-management
  and http://www.into.ie/ROI/SchoolAdministration/BoardsOfManagement/
  and http://www.cspa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:boards-of-management&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

My point was that the composition of BOM's is more to do with having the various stakeholders represented, rather than ensuring that the board has the necessary mix of competencies to ensure that the various legal, ethical, and organisational issues that arise can be adequately dealt with. Teachers rarely have such a background, parents likewise, other than by sheer chance. Patron nominees tend to be focused primarily on the ethos of the school and are often from the educational or religious sector.
The two "extra members" are often selected for their professional experience. However, because all positions are voluntary, there is no guarantee that any member will have appropriate background, qualifications, or experience.

The BOM has responsibility for child protection. From an INTO document...

(d) Child Protection Guidelines
Boards of Management have a particularly important role in providing their pupils with high
standards of care in order to promote their well-being and protect them from harm. School
personnel are especially well placed to observe changes in behaviour or outward signs of
difficulties which could cause concern in relation to child protection.

The Board of Management would be sued as an entity.