Voting should be compulsory!

Permabear

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994

Frank Skinner had an article in the UK Times about how the average Britain's Got Talent voter is better informed than the average election voter. A BGT voter will watch every episode, judge the performances, discuss it with friends, rewatch it online, and even PAY to vote. An election voter will put an X next to the one who looks prettiest/cleverest/friendliest.

asdasd

Becuase it guarantees that the whole of society contribute and the true opinion of society is reflected!

Mathematically the number of people who vote is easily enough to represent a valid sample of the entire electorate. That means that the people who couldn't get to the booths statistically wold have voted the same as every one else were you to march them there.

( The sample of the total electorate is, after all much greater than an opinion poll).

Or to reverse the argument Australia would get the exact same voting pattern were it to stop compulsory voting.

So what is the point?

asdasd

An election voter will put an X next to the one who looks prettiest/cleverest/friendliest.

yep. The A's do better as well. First page. First item on page.

TheInquisitor

994 wrote: »

An election voter will put an X next to the one who looks prettiest/cleverest/friendliest.

And whats wrong with that :pac:

rugbyman

I have not read all of this thread so i may be repeating points.

for years i have listened to politicians saying voting should be compulsorory, etc but the point is that there are people,voters, who by not voting are clearly saying that they do not care who is elected, somebody will be elected and life goes on.

To deliberately not vote is to state clearly that one cares little for the outcome.

one point i would like to make is that a large % of the population do not understand how PR works, e.g. that a number 2 after a strong man/woman is virtually useless. the person for whom the no 1 was cast will neither be eliminated ,nor have a surplus worth talking about.

If you would like two particular candidates to make it, sit down with your family and decide to split your number 1 votes,

a number 2 after a week candidate, is as good as a Number 1. in the last general election I voted for two no hopers in my area as a mark of respect for their efforts. (this can backfire)

Regards, Rugbyman

Sleepy

I'm actually in favour of this... with a proviso, we do something that Student Unions around the country have done for years and introduce a RON option on all ballot forms...

If RON wins, we get rid of all candidates that have been refused by the electorate and, with any luck, get a better crop the second time around!

Oh, and second the bit about voting being at the weekend (or on a public holiday), I lost the ability to vote in the last general election because I was abroad for work...

TheInquisitor

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm actually in favour of this... with a proviso, we do something that Student Unions around the country have done for years and introduce a RON option on all ballot forms...

If RON wins, we get rid of all candidates that have been refused by the electorate and, with any luck, get a better crop the second time around!

Oh, and second the bit about voting being at the weekend (or on a public holiday), I lost the ability to vote in the last general election because I was abroad for work...

Thats actually a great idea.

Burial

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Australia force everyone over the age of 18 to vote . The same should apply over here. Even if someone wants to spoil their vote thats their right but they should be compelled to vote with fines if they don't! Would this work here?

http://www.aec.gov.au/faqs/voting_australia.htm#Is%20voting%20compulsory

No everyone shouldn't be allowed vote. Some people dont know enough to understand what they are voting for, and shouldn't vote unless they understand what and why they are voting. Take Lisbon as an example. I know loads of people who voted because they didn't know what it was about so they voted no. Imo, they shouldn't have voted at all. Not knowing what you are voting for doesn't mean you vote no or yes! It means you dont vote!

Merch

Burial wrote: »

No everyone shouldn't be allowed vote. Some people dont know enough to understand what they are voting for, and shouldn't vote unless they understand what and why they are voting. Take Lisbon as an example. I know loads of people who voted because they didn't know what it was about so they voted no. Imo, they shouldn't have voted at all. Not knowing what you are voting for doesn't mean you vote no or yes! It means you dont vote!

Yes everyone should be allowed, and should. This is a "so called democracy" we should have rights and responsibilities! I have found some of the most vocal complainants to have not voted? If there is such a wide gap in understanding about our system then something needs to be done about it.
I hate the way I have heard politicians say this is a democracy and this is who the people wanted attitude, they know well it is better to keep a greater part of the population in the situation where they will be apathetic to voting.
As for lisbon, I think its a perfect example if you want no, vote no if yes then yes but if you marked say yes and for some reason marked the no box accidentally thats a spoil,its an accidental spoil, I think an intentional spoil option should be there.

stakey

What a rediculous notion, i've voted in every referendum that has come up since i've been allowed to vote, but I don't vote in elections.

I vote in referendums because as an individual I am being asked to make a choice on a specific matter.

I don't vote in elections because not one party, independant or candidate can either a) represent my opinions politically or b) follow through on the vast majority of their election promises. None of the political parties in this state can represent my opinions. Therefore I don't vote for them.

I don't spoil my vote because it's a pointless act that only serves as a statistic on polling day. Spoiling your vote is hugely disempowering, you're not asked why you wish to spoil your vote and no research is done into this percentage in a result. It's just a statistic. Yes, not voting is also a statistic, but the political system chooses to sometimes flirt with non voters, sometimes ignore and completely marginalise spoilt votes as protest votes or whatever else they wish to describe it as in the media.

Any hey, if a party that represented me appeared, i'd vote for them!

And, i'd spoil my vote if the ballot paper had this option:

I'm spoiling my vote because:

a) The democratic process of this country is letting me down and I don't believe that any of the established candidates can respresent me or my interests.

b) None of the parties or candidates represent me.

c) I haven't researched enough or understand enough to choose a candidate

d) This is a protest vote.

Imagine if the RTE coverage of our elections had something along the lines of this on your screen:

XX% Fianna Fail
XX% Labour
XX% Fine Gael
XX% Sinn Fein
XX% Green Party
XX% Spoilt, of that:

---

XX% Believe democracy failing them

---

XX% Do not know enough about the candidates/parties

---

XX% Do not feel parties/candidates represent them

---

XX% Protest vote against government

Imagine, how many might choose my option of a-c?

If you're going to demand that people like myself should be forced into a specific statistic on polling night, then at least give me more options than wiping my arse with the ballot ticket.

Merch

stakey wrote: »

What a rediculous notion, i've voted in every referendum that has come up since i've been allowed to vote, but I don't vote in elections.

I vote in referendums because as an individual I am being asked to make a choice on a specific matter.

I don't vote in elections because not one party, independant or candidate can either a) represent my opinions politically or b) follow through on the vast majority of their election promises. None of the political parties in this state can represent my opinions. Therefore I don't vote for them.

I don't spoil my vote because it's a pointless act that only serves as a statistic on polling day. Spoiling your vote is hugely disempowering, you're not asked why you wish to spoil your vote and no research is done into this percentage in a result. It's just a statistic. Yes, not voting is also a statistic, but the political system chooses to sometimes flirt with non voters, sometimes ignore and completely marginalise spoilt votes as protest votes or whatever else they wish to describe it as in the media.

Any hey, if a party that represented me appeared, i'd vote for them!

And, i'd spoil my vote if the ballot paper had this option:

I'm spoiling my vote because:

a) The democratic process of this country is letting me down and I don't believe that any of the established candidates can respresent me or my interests.

b) None of the parties or candidates represent me.

c) I haven't researched enough or understand enough to choose a candidate

d) This is a protest vote.

Imagine if the RTE coverage of our elections had something along the lines of this on your screen:

XX% Fianna Fail
XX% Labour
XX% Fine Gael
XX% Sinn Fein
XX% Green Party
XX% Spoilt, of that:

---

XX% Believe democracy failing them

---

XX% Do not know enough about the candidates/parties

---

XX% Do not feel parties/candidates represent them

---

XX% Protest vote against government

Imagine, how many might choose my option of a-c?

If you're going to demand that people like myself should be forced into a specific statistic on polling night, then at least give me more options than wiping my arse with the ballot ticket .

As your post is directly after mine I assume you think my post is ridiculous, yet you agree with my opinion about spoiling a vote? I agree with everything you say about spoiled votes! i disagree that any opportunity to vote should be missed. Never will the election promises be all or mostly kept,never will any political party fully represent me, but it is best to have a hand in getting the best possible option to the fore. I believe there should be options re spoiled votes
Believe democracy failing them
Do not know enough about the candidates/parties
Do not feel parties/candidates represent them
Protest vote against government
I couldnt agree more
I vote yes, no or 1,2,3
If these options were available regarding spoiled votes, in some instances I would intentional spoil my vote and I think it is a valid way of showing how I feel.

stakey

Merch wrote: »

As your post is directly after mine I assume you think my post is ridiculous

Nope, sorry I was pointing out that the idea of forcing people to vote was a ridiculous idea, should've been more clear

If the powers at be want to frog march people who don't vote to the ballot box, then at least give them something a little more substantial than simply spoiling their vote which can be construed any way they wish.

Merch

stakey wrote: »

Nope, sorry I was pointing out that the idea of forcing people to vote was a ridiculous idea, should've been more clear

If the powers at be want to frog march people who don't vote to the ballot box, then at least give them something a little more substantial than simply spoiling their vote which can be construed any way they wish.

Ok I believe Australia has some form of compulsory voting?
If it were compulsory I think there should be more options on spoiling a vote, eg. I excercise my right to vote but I dont want it counted as a graphical error, I didnt do a big x through the ballot because Im stupid, its because I think the system is failing me!
I personally would like to be able to tell, if people had that option why they were doing it? and then see that problem addressed.
I don't think its a matter of politicians frog marching people to the polls, I think most politicians are quite happy with low levels of turnout and general apathy, it means a party can do what it wants and the populace will do nothing or think they can do nothing about it.

I have come across very vocal non voters?? I don't understand them
I dont want to get into the whole people died to get the vote, but if we didnt people would be queing up to die??
It seems to be a right we want to have but not excercise, whats the point of that?

TheInquisitor

Compulsory voting is enforced in the following countries

Argentina
Australia
Belgium
Brazil
Chile
Cyprus
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Ecuador
Fiji
Liechtenstein
Nauru
Peru Singapore
Switzerland
Turkey
Uruguay

The Recliner

Merch wrote: »

I have come across very vocal non voters?? I don't understand them
I dont want to get into the whole people died to get the vote, but if we didnt people would be queing up to die??
It seems to be a right we want to have but not excercise, whats the point of that?

People in this country did not die for a vote, they died for a Democracy in which people have the right to chose not to vote

Big difference and a line that is trotted out time and again incorrectly

bonkey

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Compulsory voting is enforced in the following countries

<snip>
Switzerland
<snip>

I live in Switzerland. My wife is Swiss.

There is no compulsory voting here.

TheInquisitor

bonkey wrote: »

I live in Switzerland. My wife is Swiss.

There is no compulsory voting here.

But wikipedia could NEVER be wrong . Apologies!

Mike 1972

Since nobody has answered the questions Im going to ask again.

For those who advocate compulsary voting what would you envisage being a lawful excuse for not voting.

How much police/court resources would you devote into chasing up those who didnt vote (only for it to emerge that half them were abroad or dead on polling day)

What penelty would you impose on the rest and how would you deal with those who couldnt/wouldnt pay it.

Joey the lips

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Since nobody has answered the questions Im going to ask again.

For those who advocate compulsary voting what would you envisage being a lawful excuse for not voting.

How much police/court resources would you devote into chasing up those who didnt vote (only for it to emerge that half them were abroad or dead on polling day)

What penelty would you impose on the rest and how would you deal with those who couldnt/wouldnt pay it.

lawful excuse for not voting- Mental incompacatation

No court resouces required just send an automatic fine from the list of votes not cast!

If you could not pay you should not have forgone your vote. Its a bit like saying why fine the poor for not having a TV licence!

monument

Besides a "responsibility" why should voting be compulsory? What's the advantage?

I've read the whole thread and can't see any solid reasoning why it should be mandatory or what the advantage would be. On the other hand, there seems to be a few reasons why not to have such rules.

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Well im glad anyway everyone agrees with me that the sooner voting is compulsory the better!

From reading the thread it looks like only a minority agree with you.

Morzadec wrote: »

I've said this before. A very basic test at the very least, like say a Junior Cert CSPE exam. Fail and you lose your vote.

Some people might see this as anti-democratic or even fascistic in some ways but I can only assume the reason we get poxy government after poxy government is that people are voting for certain parties based on family allegiances or some sort of other ridiculous reason.

I'd love to know how such an exam would stop people voting based on family allegiances. In any case, I know of more than a handful of people who have more sense than many people with degrees.

Joey the lips wrote: »

It could also be that your of a poor standard of education and dont realise the power of your vote!

So, only uneducated people think democracy does not work? Are you trying to be funny?

Joey the lips

monument wrote: »

So, only uneducated people think democracy does not work? Are you trying to be funny?

Ask me what I mean when you clearly dont get it. I dont mind anwering.

The Irish National Organisation(INOU) proved in there study that one of the principle reasons for people not voting is, people are afraid of the voting process, they judge themselves as being uncapable of understanding it. They found it no coincidence that this happened in areas of high unemployment and relative poverty. I can name a few if you want but it creates a stigma! They also found that voters in this area due to there status are very dienfrnchised. They commisioned a study trying to determine the difference in both in these areas. A study that Ms Ferris in kerry still carries on with them.

Now if you find this funny laugh away but me! I raised a question with them as to why this exists and what is the goverment doing about it and the answer I got is "Nothing is being done" why? cause why would the govt help itself out of office!


another reason myself I always felt voting should be enforced it would ensure that goverment cannot tell the qty of discontent amongst these people.

BUT as i said later...... read the rest of my post to get my general view on voting!

holidayhere

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Australia force everyone over the age of 18 to vote . The same should apply over here. Even if someone wants to spoil their vote thats their right but they should be compelled to vote with fines if they don't! Would this work here?

I agree.
I would also get young people interested in what is happening around them.

turgon

If people arent interested in voting they certainly wont be interested in getting informed.

Merch

Popey wrote: »

People in this country did not die for a vote, they died for a Democracy in which people have the right to chose not to vote

Big difference and a line that is trotted out time and again incorrectly

I'm inclined to disagree, people in many countries have given their lives to have the right to self determination for future generations, like I said I didn't really want to go into saying people died for the vote here, but self determination is the right to decide your way of life yourself.

If you are a non participant in society then, you are not helping those that wish to improve things, so why should you benefit from improvements but as a citizen people will say they have rights! rights and responsibilities, how hard is it to make yourself aware of current issues and vote? I would prefer more options re spoiling a vote, but mostly my experience is people dont make the time or are too lazy.
They are apathetic as they think one vote, their vote will not count, but it does, that must be the most disempowering thing to think, if people think like that then a democracy is not what is needed.
I think its shameful to have to force people to vote but it seems we may as well have no democracy (although I disagree we or many have much of a democracy anyway) It can only be eroded futher if politicians think we dont even want a vote.

monument

Joey the lips wrote: »

Ask me what I mean when you clearly dont get it. I dont mind anwering.

Just to be clear, you said: "It could also be that your of a poor standard of education and dont realise the power of your vote!"

To me, that clearly says only uneducated people think democracy does not work... if you want I can point to many highly educated people who think the very same.

Joey the lips wrote: »

The Irish National Organisation(INOU) proved in there study that one of the principle reasons for people not voting is, people are afraid of the voting process, they judge themselves as being uncapable of understanding it. They found it no coincidence that this happened in areas of high unemployment and relative poverty. I can name a few if you want but it creates a stigma! They also found that voters in this area due to there status are very dienfrnchised. They commisioned a study trying to determine the difference in both in these areas. A study that Ms Ferris in kerry still carries on with them.

I'd say being disfranchised is far, far more likely the central reason.

Joey the lips wrote: »

Now if you find this funny laugh away but me! I raised a question with them as to why this exists and what is the goverment doing about it and the answer I got is "Nothing is being done" why? cause why would the govt help itself out of office!

What you seem to be missing is that most people who are disfranchised see all the parties as the same.

Merch wrote: »

I'm inclined to disagree, people in many countries have given their lives to have the right to self determination for future generations,

Self determination includes the right not to vote.

Merch wrote: »

They are apathetic as they think one vote, their vote will not count, but it does,

Every vote counts in closer elections. Every vote, however, does not always count.

The Recliner

monument wrote: »

Just to be clear, you said: "It could also be that your of a poor standard of education and dont realise the power of your vote!"

To me, that clearly says only uneducated people think democracy does not work... if you want I can point to many highly educated people who think the very same.



I'd says being disfranchised is far, far more likely the central reason.



What you seem to be missing is that most people who are disfranchised see all the parties as the same.



Self determination includes the right not to vote.



Every vote counts in closer elections. Every vote, however, does not always count.

Pretty much what I was going to say

TheInquisitor

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Since nobody has answered the questions Im going to ask again.

For those who advocate compulsary voting what would you envisage being a lawful excuse for not voting.

How much police/court resources would you devote into chasing up those who didnt vote (only for it to emerge that half them were abroad or dead on polling day)

What penelty would you impose on the rest and how would you deal with those who couldnt/wouldnt pay it.

Lawful excuse- Doctor or Garda cert saying they couldn't vote. If your abroad , a system which should be in place right now anyway, where people could vote in front of a garda or postal vote

Fine- loosing ten per cent of your tax credits therefore no need for courts or other fines etc. there's nothing to do with paying it then. They just have a slightly worse off pay packet for lets say 6 months or a year

Pygmalion

Personally I'm glad that if someone doesn't care enough about politics to vote willingly then they can just stay at home.
When people show up and mark a random box without knowing anything about any candidates, just so they don't get fined, it's bad for the country.

monument

TheInquisitor, could you please outline the benefits of having compulsory voting?

TheInquisitor wrote: »

If your abroad , a system which should be in place right now anyway, where people could vote in front of a garda or postal vote

Besides the exceptions covered by postal voting at present, why should it be in place now?

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Fine- loosing ten per cent of your tax credits therefore no need for courts or other fines etc. there's nothing to do with paying it then. They just have a slightly worse off pay packet for lets say 6 months or a year

Do you know how much this would cost to administer?