Support for the Lisbon Treaty increases to 54%

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

It's possible that the percentage has increased during that time...

It's also possible that it has decreased; or that it has remained static.

If you think the current figure is closer to 80% than 30% - and if this is a matter of concern to you - do the research. The methodology has been explained.

Hitman Actual

O'Morris wrote: »

The 30% figure does not represent the percentage of our laws that are being made by the EU. It represents the total that have been made over the past 15 or 16 years. It's possible that the percentage has increased during that time and so to get an idea of how many of our laws are currently being made by the EU we would need to analyse the most recently available data i.e. for only the last 4 or 5 years.

The fact that the people who calculated this 30% figure didn't do this, even though it would have meant less work for them, is an indication that the more recent data probably shows a higher percentage of our laws originating outside our national parliament.

Given that the biggest potential increase in legislative power from the EU was the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, and Amsterdam and Nice were only reform treaties of same, I think it's fair to assume that things haven't changed radically in the last 15 years.

Although, with Maastricht, we had opt-outs in JHA, and defence issues are not subject to legislation from the Commission, so even Maastricht may not have changed things all that much. But, like oscarBravo says, do the research yourself. I personally would be interested to see the trend as well.

Edit to add: Actually, it was Schengen we had opt-outs from.

O'Morris

P. Breathnach wrote:

It matters not a bit to me that some proportion of our laws and regulations comes from the EU (which, let us remember, is ourselves in a wider context, not a foreign power). And I don't care whether it is 30% or 80%

It matters a lot to me. I want Ireland to be an independent country and I want laws affecting the Irish people to be made in an Irish parliament elected by and accountable to the Irish people.

oscarBravo wrote:

It's also possible that it has decreased; or that it has remained static.

If it has decreased then that's all the more reason for the people who came up with the 30% figure to focus on only the last few years. It would give a much more accurate and more up-to-date picture of the current set-up.

P. Breathnach

O'Morris wrote: »

It matters a lot to me. I want Ireland to be an independent country ...

No surprise: it's all foreigners out there.

Hitman Actual

Well, if the average over 15 years is 25%, there isn't much scope there mathematically for the number to have changed radically in any given year. For example, if it was, say 15% for the first 10 years, you would need >50% each year over the last 5 to bring the number up to 25%. Such a jump would be very unlikely, statistically-speaking.

PopeBuckfastXVI

O'Morris wrote: »

It matters a lot to me. I want Ireland to be an independent country and I want laws affecting the Irish people to be made in an Irish parliament elected by and accountable to the Irish people.

Here's the thing though, the Irish parliament have approved Irelands membership of the EU, after being elected, and continually accountable to the Irish people. One of the rules of membership of the EU is to accept that laws made jointly with other member states of that Union are applicable to every member state.

If a law were to be made by Ireland and her partners at EU level, which was outrageous to the Dáil or the Irish people, we are not really bound by it. We have the option to not enact it, this would involve leaving the EU, and there is nothing to stop us doing that. If you don't want to abide by the rules of the club then you may attempt to negotiate those rules or leave. Nobody will force membership of the EU, and the obligations entailed, upon you.

So in actuallity all laws which come from the EU (which consists of Ireland and her partners) have the approval of the Government, the Dáil, and, in election after election, the Irish people.

Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

The 30% figure does not represent the percentage of our laws that are being made by the EU. It represents the total that have been made over the past 15 or 16 years. It's possible that the percentage has increased during that time and so to get an idea of how many of our laws are currently being made by the EU we would need to analyse the most recently available data i.e. for only the last 4 or 5 years.

The fact that the people who calculated this 30% figure didn't do this, even though it would have meant less work for them, is an indication that the more recent data probably shows a higher percentage of our laws originating outside our national parliament.

In fact, they appear to have done so, according to this graph:



2003-2009 (post-Nice) is higher - an average of about 35%, it looks like to me.

cordially,
Scofflaw

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

I want Ireland to be an independent country...

Good news: it is.

...and I want laws affecting the Irish people to be made in an Irish parliament elected by and accountable to the Irish people.

Good news: they are.

molloyjh

O'Morris wrote: »

It matters a lot to me. I want Ireland to be an independent country and I want laws affecting the Irish people to be made in an Irish parliament elected by and accountable to the Irish people.

I'm just thankful that in this wonderful democracy of ours what O'Morris wants on this issue doesn't really matter given that he is by far and a way in the minority. It is, of course, his right to want out of the EU. But I'd be very interested to know what his circumstances would be had we never joined.

Scofflaw

oscarBravo wrote: »

Good news: it is. Good news: they are.

Assuming, that is, that people actually use the levers they have in their hands.

cordially,
Scofflaw

USE

Fianna Fail
Fine Gael
The Labour Party
Progressive Democrats
IBEC
Irish Farmers Association
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
ICMSA
Alliance for Europe
Concern
Barnado's
Trocaire
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
American Chamber of Commerce
Construction Industry Federation (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce
Cork City Business Association
Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Dublin City Business Association
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland
Galway City Business Association
ICT Ireland
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers
Irish Banking Federation
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (IEA)
Irish Franchise Association
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association
Irish Hotels Federation (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (IMDA)
Irish Software Association (ISA)
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (ITAA)
Limerick Chamber of Commerce
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Pharmachemical Ireland
Retail Ireland
Small Firms Association (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber
Telecoms and Internet Federation (TIF)
Waterford Chamber of Commerce
Concern (NGO)

They all say YES! to the Treaty of Lisbon.

---

Reasons for voting No in the previous referendum.

1. I don't know what I'm voting for.

Education will be enough to solve the problem.

Everyone can find full text of the Treaty of Lisbon here (reading it is highly recommendable; there will be no place for the phobias left then). You will find the FAQ about the Treaty of Lisbon here. The Treaty of Lisbon explained.

Also there is Consolidated Reader-Friendly Edition of the Treaty on European Union (TEU) and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon.


2. To keep Ireland's power and identity.

Ireland has no power out of EU, sorry to tell that. Ireland can choose to have a voice through EU or not to have one at all.

EU is not aimed against Ireland's or any other country's identity. Both the casted-off Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon acknowledges the identity and dinstinctions of every of its member states:

The Treaty <...> brings the local and regional dimension into the EU legal framework and states that the Union must respect the national identities of Member States <...>

3. To safeguard Ireland's neutrality.

The Treaty will have a protocol dedicated for Ireland. The protocol will consist of guarantees made exceptionally for Ireland regarding 3 areas:

one saying Ireland’s neutrality will not be affected;
one saying that the Lisbon Treaty does not change tax policy;
and one saying the Irish Constitution in the areas of the right to life, family and education will not be affected by either the Charter of Fundamental Rights or the new justice and home affairs articles in the treaty.

This is another reason why there is the 2nd referendum - there will be voting for the new conditions of the Treaty.


4. Don't like being told what to do.

Understand that. That's why I'm not saying how somebody should vote, I'm saying that I support the "Yes" position and I'm giving the facts. I also add that the conclusions are for everyone to make on their own. But if "Yes" campaign says how to vote, the "No" one does the same.


5. EE/bigger countries will have too much power.

The "power" is adequate to the size of the country (economical, population size, etc). This can't be different. Small countries can acknowledge that and participate (and therefore have their say) or isolate themselves and don't have a voice at all. Of course, nationalists think their c**k is the largest no matter what and logics are not necessary for them. The same goes for all of the countries, including EE. By the way, smaller countries have more power per capital than the big ones, you can calculate that by yourself taking into account the population and the number of European Parliament seats for example. In other EU institutions small countries have 1 diplomat just like the big ones, so it is even more small countries friendly if we will check the ratio. For example, Malta's and Germany's ratio regarding population is 410,290:82,060,000 or ~1:200 if we will reducate it, but in many of the EU institutions the ratio is 1:1, in the European Parliament it is 5:99 (~1:20) - ten times in favour of Malta regarding population.


6. To help Irish farmers.

Irish Farmers Association, Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association, ICMSA - they support the Yes! campaign.


7. To prevent too much immigration to Ireland.

Immigration policy of EU should be developed further, but the way lie campaigners give it is totally wrong. EU is developing its immigration policy and that is why the Blue Card (an analogue of the USA Green Card) will come into force in about two years period. Rejecting the Treaty of Lisbon won't reduce/prevent the immigration from the rest part of EU in no way, it's like healing flu with medicine for diabetes. The "No" campaigners are giving all the negative statements no matter if they are related with the concrete referendum object or not. They are simply manipulating people.


8. EU is too big already.

I would also like to see EU integrating more vertically than horizontally at the moment. But I'm not against Iceland or Croatia entry because those countries are small and won't have big effect on EU (but EU will have big and good effect on them). Also Iceland is well developed and Croatia meets the minimal necessary conditions easily.


9. To safeguard Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

The Treaty will have a protocol dedicated for Ireland. The protocol will consist of guarantees made exceptionally for Ireland regarding 3 areas:

one saying Ireland’s neutrality will not be affected;
one saying that the Lisbon Treaty does not change tax policy;
and one saying the Irish Constitution in the areas of the right to life, family and education will not be affected by either the Charter of Fundamental Rights or the new justice and home affairs articles in the treaty.


10. To protest against the government.

Very wrong. This referendum will affect half a billion of EU citizens. It's not the place to protest against inner Irish problems.