Air France Passenger Aircraft Missing

seamus

They've actually only spotted the debris from above, they've haven't got their hands on it so to speak, so it would be premature to assume anything without having the physical items.

Air crash investigation is a painfully meticulous exercise, they seem very reluctant to draw any kind of conclusions without hard proof - i.e. serial numbers and physical debris.

Darwin

There's an excellent analysis of the weather conditions at the time on this site, well worth a read.

yermandan

From my ex co-workers in Aer Lingus, they are saying the employees who were on the flight were 2 Slovakian nationals who worked in the loading section of the company

x in the city

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Very sorry to hear that. I would ask you not to go to the After Hours thread, as they all seem to think the whole thing is hilarious. Children and all likely dead, and just as it is in a different part of Boards they are given licence to laugh.

Awful story, condolences.

whaddya expect, people on ah tend to have the iq of a tulip.

very tragic that,,,....

Gazza22

Sully wrote: »

Whats to say it didn't break up before impact? Since everything is so far apart.. I know its been suggested that the pilots may have tried to turn the plane back towards land due to the location of the items found.

Yeah that is indeed a possibility considering the debris found to date was in more or less two different locations with a spread of 35 miles but we'll all have to wait a few more hours/days to see where the next piece of the wreckage is found.

Sparky

Ive been following this since it happened and my thoughts go out to all during this

Mr Benevolent

35 miles is a huge separation of two sections of debris. Not even a nuclear explosion could separate something by that distance. Seems logical that (if there really are two debris fields) there was an inflight breakup. But what could fall off the aircraft and allow it to fly on? Only things I can think of are the vertical stabiliser, one horizontal stab or a section of wing.

dfx-

AA587? Tail torn off by over compensation by the pilot?

Mr Benevolent

AA587? Tail torn off by over compensation by the pilot?

Nah, that was an A300, the A330 doesn't have that problem

More info:

It appears AF447 crossed through three key thunderstorm clusters: a small one around 0151Z, a new rapidly growing one at about 0159Z, and finally a large multicell convective system (MCS) around 0205-0216Z. Temperature trends suggested that the entire system was at peak intensity, developing rapidly around 2300-0100Z and finally dissipating around dawn. From a turbulence perspective, these cold spots would be the areas of highest concern as they signal the location of an active updraft producing new cloud material in the upper troposphere.

Compare that with:

New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence of messages could not be independently verified.

So it looks like an ADIRU issue developed during the worst part of the storm, probably due to turbulence. The A330 and 340 ADIRUs have had problems before, with one fault causing a 40 degree pitchup. Combine that amount of pitchup with severe turbulence and there's a structural problem in the making. Related was the 'Bus going into ALT law and dropping the AP, which would've made the aircraft marginally more difficult to handle. Finally, the ISIS is the Integrated Standby Instrument System, powering and displaying the standby flight displays (AH, ALT and HSI). If they went when an ADIRU popped they'd have had a whole heap of trouble.

The whole thing would've been a complete nightmare.

homerjay2005

terrible tragedy. nice to see that in here theres proper talk and everybody realises the nature of the tragedy, not like elsewhere

my heart goes out to anybody who knew or is related to the people involved. its a terrible thing to happen. i just hope above all hope that there have been some survivors.


very baffling evets so far, the investigation into this is going to be huge and will take years. will take ages before they find all the parts and may never find all the passengers

FlutterinBantam

Confab wrote: »

Nah, that was an A300, the A330 doesn't have that problem

More info:



Compare that with:



So it looks like an ADIRU issue developed during the worst part of the storm, probably due to turbulence. The A330 and 340 ADIRUs have had problems before, with one fault causing a 40 degree pitchup. Combine that amount of pitchup with severe turbulence and there's a structural problem in the making. Related was the 'Bus going into ALT law and dropping the AP, which would've made the aircraft marginally more difficult to handle. Finally, the ISIS is the Integrated Standby Instrument System, powering and displaying the standby flight displays (AH, ALT and HSI). If they went when an ADIRU popped they'd have had a whole heap of trouble.

The whole thing would've been a complete nightmare.

Indeed, would have been very difficult to maintain control with those vital situation indicators malfunctioning in a severe turbulence occurrence
Very worrying situation and no doubt will occupy the best brains of Airbus Industrie for a few weeks.

Latchy

Very strange and tragic event .Seems like the passengers and crew didn't have much of a chance, if any at all of .We might never know what happened .

Thoughts and condolences to all concerened and their families .

Trotter

My thoughts are with all of the families who are dealing with this. 3 young doctors.. people who no doubt made their families so proud in what they were doing with their lives. It is a raw, bizarre, confused tragedy.

My thoughts are also with finding the reason for this accident as soon as possible. Im wondering out loud if we have a situation where a global weather change has lead to types of high altitude storms that are new to us and that our aircraft aren't built to withstand. I hope not.. I'm due to travel to Capetown on a 747-400 in a month, and its unnerving.

Jayob10

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Very sorry to hear that. I would ask you not to go to the After Hours thread, as they all seem to think the whole thing is hilarious. Children and all likely dead, and just as it is in a different part of Boards they are given licence to laugh.

Awful story, condolences.

I spotted that too. I think it is disgraceful. I voiced my opinion on what I thought of people laughing about it in there (one of the girls was a friend of our family) and I used a few choice words.
I was banned for asking moderators to remove the topic also.

I think its a disgrace

Grim.

Jayob10 wrote: »

I spotted that too. I think it is disgraceful. I voiced my opinion on what I thought of people laughing about it in there (one of the girls was a friend of our family) and I used a few choice words.
I was banned for asking moderators to remove the topic also.

I think its a disgrace

ah thats boards.ie all over

its a ****in disgrace tbh i know its after hours but ffs youd think theyd have some cop on

JupiterKid

It is a terrible tragedy indeed.:( I think that airlines and aircraft manufacturers really need to start taking the dangers of turbulence - too often dismissed by them as a "mere discomfort" to nervous passengers - much more seriously.

Here is a link to an excellent blog by avionics expert Miles O'Brien. In his blog, he speculates what might have happened to flight AF447:

http://trueslant.com/milesobrien/2009/06/01/a-dark-stormy-night-over-the-atlantic/


My heart also goes out to the families of the three young Irish women and indeed to the families of all the victims.:(

aidan24326

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Wow, what a tragedy!

I think they will eventually find the plane - losing a massive white airplane is a real problem (and embarassment) to modern society today. As for survivors, who knows?

If the plane is at the bottom of the sea and it is found, will the black box still be intact and will they make attempts to get it or would it be too difficult if it is a deep ocean?

Hard to know. If it's gone down in deep ocean and with the debris scattered over a wide area, it will be very difficult. The black box recorders continue to emit a locator beacon for some time after impact but even if they find the location it's not easy to pull a small box out of the deep ocean. But yes they would make every possible effort to recover the flight data and voice recorders as they are crucial to establishing what happened.

mandysmithers wrote: »

Also, I would presume that if there was some sort of explosion and depressurisation (is that the correct word??), that most of the passengers would die fairly quickly (from what, I don't know - I don't know much about this sort of thing), and wouldn't have been conscious of the plane plummeting...

Not necessarily. If the plane came down intact the passengers would likely have been conscious of it. If it break up suddenly in mid-air (as seems very possible in this case) it would depend on the nature of the breakup and what caused it. But even with a midair breakup of the plane it's possible (unfortunately) that at least some of the passengers may have been conscious on impact with the water. Not enough is known about the crash right now though, so without further info it's impossible to say. If bodies are recovered post-mortems will reveal more.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It depends on what way it hit the sea, chances of an intact hull would be very slim, it could be in more than 1000 pieces scattered over a large area, I think the Black boxes must also must be located within a certain time frame before the batteries in the transmitting beacon fade out.

Not sure of the time limit for the boxes, but you're right in saying that there is one.

Wibbs wrote: »

IHorrible chain of events as you say. I have noticed that on those programmes about air crashes. Unless it's a bomb it's always an A B C D E sequence, where B or C or A or even a collection of issues wouldn't bring the plane down.

It's almost always a sequence or some combination of events that brings a plane down. I suppose modern aircraft are designed so well that one small fault alone isn't usually enough. In this accident though, the lack of communication or emergency calls from the pilots suggests that whatever went wrong it happened pretty quickly, but there would likely be several factors that caused it.

These aircraft are incredibly well made and the crews that man them and service them and those that design them and those that control them in the air are to be commended. And those same people that were involved in that particular aircraft are I'm sure feeling the loss in their own way too.

Considering how many planes take off and land around the world each day, and how technically complex they are, the safety record of modern aircraft is remarkable. You're certainly far far safer stepping onto a passenger jet than getting into a car. I guess it's the feeling of helplessness that makes people fear planes so much more, the fact that if the plane does get into trouble there's absolutely nothing you can do about it only hope your number's not up. And the knowing that if it does come down you're almost certainly going to die.

Wibbs

Confab wrote: »

So it looks like an ADIRU issue developed during the worst part of the storm, probably due to turbulence. The A330 and 340 ADIRUs have had problems before, with one fault causing a 40 degree pitchup. Combine that amount of pitchup with severe turbulence and there's a structural problem in the making. Related was the 'Bus going into ALT law and dropping the AP, which would've made the aircraft marginally more difficult to handle. Finally, the ISIS is the Integrated Standby Instrument System, powering and displaying the standby flight displays (AH, ALT and HSI). If they went when an ADIRU popped they'd have had a whole heap of trouble.

The whole thing would've been a complete nightmare.

Jesus. So basically you would be flying blind in the dark, in severe turbulence with a possible 40 degree pitchup with little idea which way was up or down, right and left? Bloody hell. I can see how you would get into an unrecoverable situation. I remember having a convo with my uncle(pilot in last war) about just the simple thing of knowing which way was up or down and he told me without instruments in cloud(or dark) you pretty much couldn't. Your inner ear would play tricks on you. You could go into say a cloud and if you weren't on top of things could come out of the cloud at a jaunty angle. He reckoned "seat of the pants" flying was a crock. Your only guide was eyeball and instruments.

If what you reckon was a large part of it it's easy to see how deceptively easily an unlucky sequence can bring down an aircraft.

mental07

Just watching the main evening news on one of the French tv channels now, they're doing a good job of bringing home the extent of the human tragedy; they mentioned 2 young kids orphaned, amongst others.

Sully

Jayob10 wrote: »

I spotted that too. I think it is disgraceful. I voiced my opinion on what I thought of people laughing about it in there (one of the girls was a friend of our family) and I used a few choice words.
I was banned for asking moderators to remove the topic also.

I think its a disgrace

After Hours is that type of forum. If you want a serious discussion, take it elsewhere. Certainly not After Hours which is designed for more pub idiotic chat. Plus, questioning moderators results in a ban anywhere as its considered bringing it further off topic. Thats to say, if you have any issues, take it to PM with the mod or report the posts. Anyway, this isnt the right place for this discussion so lets move on..

A bit from the BBC Article;

Brazilian air force spokesman Col Jorge Amaral said a Brazilian plane had picked up radar signals indicating "floating metallic and non-metallic materials" at 0100 Brazilian time (0400 GMT) on Tuesday.

At about 0530 Brazilian time, a plane spotted debris in two locations approximately 60km apart.

"In this area, they saw an orange buoy, an airplane seat, small white pieces, an airplane turbine as well as oil and kerosene," Col Amaral told reporters in Rio.

What signas come from material floating?

Mr Benevolent

What signas come from material floating?

It depends. Metal will obviously give the best return, but largish pieces of composite will work as well, with the vertical stab being one of them (and it often floats), as do some wing sections. The radar is on an aircraft and can 'see' a lot more.

It's not possible for a jet turbine fan to float, not sure where they got that.

Our man in Havana

The discussion on AH is disgraceful. But then again it is full of tards.

partyatmygaff

Im surprised nothing has been found yet.... Surely the area is being searched by spy planes etc?

I can't imagine what might of happened if the debris is really 60km apart, sure ocean currents might of moved it a bit but that must of meant a mid-air incident.
People could of fell out of the plane at 40,000 ft and fell down to their deaths.

Horrible

PCros

Bond-007 wrote: »

The discussion on AH is disgraceful. But then again it is full of tards.

True, I actually can't believe its still an active thread and when people have posted saying that it is a disgrace they get slagged off with the usual AH cynicism.

228 people died like!

Mr Benevolent

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Im surprised nothing has been found yet.... Surely the area is being searched by spy planes etc?

No, it's not searched by spy planes. Visual spotting of wreckage is very difficult. Besides, wreckage has been found, but 99.99% of it is at the bottom of the South Atlantic.

Wibbs

It's been closed now thankfully.

Wibbs

Confab wrote: »

It depends. Metal will obviously give the best return, but largish pieces of composite will work as well, with the vertical stab being one of them (and it often floats), as do some wing sections. The radar is on an aircraft and can 'see' a lot more.

It's not possible for a jet turbine fan to float, not sure where they got that.

Yes it seems like a lot of speculation, naturally enough. I would say eyeballing the debris is more likely than picking it up on radar. Bouncing radar off the ocean is going to throw up a huge return, the ocean itself. A small piece of metal is not going to show up. Composite even less so, hence stealth aircraft make much use of it and not just for structural reasons. It has a very narrow radar cross section. I suppose it would depend on the bonding agent though.

Captain Slow IRL

Is there any chance of finding the black-box, expecially if it's in the ocean? It doesn't transmit a "homing signal" or anything??

mirwillbeback

Bond-007 wrote: »

The discussion on AH is disgraceful. But then again it is full of tards.

Full of tards. But one thing I have to ask is if I make light of the crash saying something along the lines of " hilarious, those dirty brazilians won't be missed " I get an instant ban for racism, though if you generalise the tragedy and make comments along the lines of " sure they are in the series of lost " we are all supposed to accept it.

At least Lolocaust is a procected forum and you know what to expect, but there are relations on here and they deserve better than to stumble across a thread called Air France disaster full of smart remarks.

b28

Unusual for this young 330 to crash, anyone got any ideas into how this could have come about?

electrics apparently failed and so did cabin p. its wierd and has freaked me out

DOCARCH

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

Is there any chance of finding the black-box, expecially if it's in the ocean? It doesn't transmit a "homing signal" or anything??

Apparantly they do transmit a signal and can last under water for about a week but in this case the depth of water may be an issue - to pick up the signal you would have to be pretty much on top of it.

partyatmygaff

b28 wrote: »

Unusual for this young 330 to crash, anyone got any ideas into how this could have come about?

electrics apparently failed and so did cabin p. its wierd and has freaked me out

Either human error which I doubt or some very strange weather. Extreme turbulence, some strange weather feature that is still unknown to meteorologists.

Unlikely its lightning though. Any survivors(Provided the plane actually ditched and did not just fall apart mid-air) would by now have died of hypothermia or have been eaten alive.


RIP

homerjay2005

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Full of tards. But one thing I have to ask is if I make light of the crash saying something along the lines of " hilarious, those dirty brazilians won't be missed " I get an instant ban for racism, though if you generalise the tragedy and make comments along the lines of " sure they are in the series of lost " we are all supposed to accept it.

At least Lolocaust is a procected forum and you know what to expect, but there are relations on here and they deserve better than to stumble across a thread called Air France disaster full of smart remarks.

that thread has really p*ssed me off. i can only imagine how people who know those involved feel. if theres ever a reason to review and change the point of after hours, then this is it. im embarrassed to be part of this website when i see some of those posts. the sheer ignorence on there is shocking.

anyway, i wonder have any bodies been recovered? surely if there are seats showing up, bodies would be strapped in or am i wrong ?

as regards the black box, surely if its emmiting a signal, they could have found some wreakage quicker? data has 30 days to be found i think.

pclancy

Ok lets forget about the other thread...keep this one as its going folks, no airline/aircraft manufacturer bashing, on topic, with sensible debate and discussion about what we know with respect to the feelings of friends/families of anyone involved.

Remember what you post will be read by a lot of people on and off Boards so lets keep the wild speculation to a minimum.

Thanks

BoardsRanger

Was reading on Skynews that the united states has agreed to assist in locating the wreckage using satellite data- Just out of curiosity, would that data be of the gps type or perhaps recorded images stored on a database?

Overheal

Bond-007 wrote: »

The discussion on AH is disgraceful. But then again it is full of tards.

Normally as one such tard I'd object but I too found some of those comments went too far.

As for the wreckage its been found.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/6/3/worldupdates/2009-06-03T015508Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-400518-1&sec=Worldupdates

RIO DE JANEIRO (Reuters) - Wreckage spotted in the Atlantic Ocean is "without a doubt" from the Air France jet that disappeared en route to Paris from Rio de Janeiro with 228 people on board, Brazil's defense minister said on Tuesday.

A Brazilian Hercules plane on a search mission for the missing passenger jet saw a band of wreckage along a 5-km strip, Nelson Jobim told a news conference.

"It confirms that the plane fell in this area," he said.

No survivors reported, and at this point are not expected.

Trotter

Overheal wrote: »

that puts it on some island out in the Mid Atlantic, scattered along the shoreline.

The hope there would be that because its near an island, it may not lie in the deepest water in the Atlantic. It might make salvage slightly more possible.

Overheal

Trotter wrote: »

The hope there would be that because its near an island, it may not lie in the deepest water in the Atlantic. It might make salvage slightly more possible.

I saw some image on CNN that I think may have been the wreckage along a shoreline. Give me some time to confirm that before I say for sure thats where the wreckage is showing up. CNNs doing its 530 edition at the moment, ill see if i dont see the footage againn.

irlrobins

Even if the recorders are at a huge depth, there still exists robot subs that could retrieve. Of course it's more tricky and expensive, but I imagine France will pay the bill without a quibble as it was an Airbus that went down. Huge home industry for them so it's in their interest to find out if was mechanical or natural cause. Which will be good for the families involved. Not like the irish government who hummed and hawed over raising those fishing trawlers here.

partyatmygaff

Here is an example of a nosediving plane catastrophe for those who posted on AH thinking its funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odRCEHBmLfU

Kind of eerie hearing all those shouts as they watch themselves about to die all while the warning alarms are going off and an automated voice telling them to pull up.


RIP flight 123 and for now RIP of the flight we have here.

b28

in fairness this disaster was a tradgedy.

there are 2 many retards using this site and the AH thread should have been closed as soon as a retarded post started or some other forms of moderation. Not telling you mods how to do you job, just I would respect an aircrash as much as a car crash!
isn't an aircrash more tradgic than a car crash? why isn't there more threads relating to car crashes with the same banter? how ironic!

May they find the aircaft, not let this happen again, and the best wishes go to the families.
what interests me mostly is what the hell happened!!

Owen

No more discussion about the AH thread, or the posters involved in childish comments. Keep this thread civil, and on topic and it will remain open.

happytime

bloody nanny state nerds what is this soviet russia; am i being "monitored" jesus get a real job

Owen

Happytime banned for a week.

This is not afterhours people, please behave and conduct your debate impartially, and civilly. Last warning before I lock the thread.

JupiterKid

I think the airplane suffered a catastrophic disintegration in mid air. Could it have been a bomb? Not a bomb planted by a terrorist organisation/suicide bomber type operation - they surely would have claimed responsinbility and anyhow Brazil and France are hardly top terrorist targets, are they?

But what if it was a South American illagal drugs operation who wanted someone or some people assassinated who were on this flight? That makes a bomb more plausible.

Or what if the airplane was struck by a meteorite? Again, very very unlikely but not impossible.

My sympathies are with the families of the 228 victims.:( I hope the black box is salvaged and that the cuase of the disaster come to light.

Sully

I'm a little confused. Is it only pieces of debris or has the complete wreckage (pretty much) been discovered? No signs of life - does that mean there was body's or they didn't see anybody at all?

Overheal; I dont see the picture on the CNN website..

DUBLINHITMAN

i worked with the 2 fella's from aerlingus that were on this flight ,
still sick thinking about it ,

R.I.P
ARNIE & MAX

Mr Benevolent

Sully wrote: »

I'm a little confused. Is it only pieces of debris or has the complete wreckage (pretty much) been discovered? No signs of life - does that mean there was body's or they didn't see anybody at all?

No wreckage has been found, only minor debris. It's impossible for wreckage to remain on the surface for more than 30 seconds or so, especially if it's fragmented. No bodies have been found and the search continues.

Sully

Confab wrote: »

No wreckage has been found, only minor debris. It's impossible for wreckage to remain on the surface for more than 30 seconds or so, especially if it's fragmented. No bodies have been found and the search continues.

Okay, I thought as much. Some articles seemed to suggest otherwise, so it was a little confusing.

andy_g

everyone keeps asking and mentioning the pingers on the black boxes the bingers have a 30day battery life and will have a higher pitch on the ping at deeper depths when submerged.