What's the law regarding swapping price tags?

Dublindude69 · 01-06-2009 4:17pm #1

I was in a shop today and I noticed some boys, probably about 13 or 14, swapping price tags on things then going up to the counter. The person serving refused to sell it at marked price, I'm sure he knew, or suspected the boys had changed the prices but didn't out and out accuse them.
The worst part was the boys stood there for a good long while hurling about at the guy saying he had to sell at marked price.
What is the law about selling at marked price? Also can something be done if someone is caught swapping stickers around?

aidan_walsh · 01-06-2009 4:19pm

Google Invitation to Treat.

Victor · 01-06-2009 4:21pm

Having something on a shelf is an "invitation to treat", not an offer for sale.

A shopkeeper does not need to sell at an erroneous price, especially one the customer knows about or created themselves.

In this case, the customers were attempting to commit fraud.

wobzilla · 01-06-2009 4:22pm

if the price is marked wrong, the person in the shop just has to tell you the real price and you can either take it or leave it.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 01-06-2009 4:43pm

If the swapping was captured on CCTV or witnessed by a member of staff ( which will normally from the companies point of view need to be security or management ) the Gardai would be called and if possible the persons involved would be detained hopefully voluntarily.

Normally when you invite the persons involved to hang on and discuss with the guards the price difference they decide to leave. You then have the option to make a citizens arrest if you really want to. Some stores would, most wouldn't.

Cabaal · 01-06-2009 5:12pm

Dublindude69 wrote: »

The worst part was the boys stood there for a good long while hurling about at the guy saying he had to sell at marked price.
d?

The boys were idiots and hadn't a clue what they are talking about.
In addition if they were caught on CCTV they should have been reported to the Gardai

Trampas · 01-06-2009 5:19pm

Just point it out that every other idea is marked a different price and it is amazing that you have got yours for cheaper :cool:

But I have seen dvd's over my time in HMV marked for different prices in different parts of the shop but they always had the name of the film on the DVD.

Photojoe · 01-06-2009 5:25pm

It is theft and dealt with by the police as such.

calex71 · 01-06-2009 5:42pm

Gamesnash.ie (Pat) wrote: »

Some stores would, most wouldn't.

What are the laws regards these people being detained by the shop against their will? Citizens arrest or not?

I'm sure if you had shop lifted the Judge would hardly side with a thief on unlawful detention but stranger things happen ?

I'm curious about that one now

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 01-06-2009 5:57pm

calex71 wrote: »

What are the laws regards these people being detained by the shop against their will? Citizens arrest or not?

I'm sure if you had shop lifted the Judge would hardly side with a thief on unlawful detention but stranger things happen ?

I'm curious about that one now

It's a tricky one ...

In summary you are entitled to legally perform a citizens arrest if the offence that you are arresting the person for is an arrestable offence punishable by more than 5 years in prison. ( The max for shoplifting is 10 years although it's never used but shoplifting falls under the remit ) You must hand the person over to the gardai as quickly as possible too. You can't make a citizens arrest and detain someone in your office for an hour before ringing the gardai. You have to contact them immediately.

You have to be very sure that you can prove the offence because if you have arrested somebody and you were wrong about their alledged crime you can be charged with false imprisonment and kdnappping etc never mind being sued for the emotional distress and embarrassment caused.

That's why a lot of stores will stay clear of it and prefer to write down registraion plates etc to give to gardai rather than hang onto someone who does not stay voluntarily.

BaconZombie · 01-06-2009 6:25pm

If the price is on PLU or sign yes but if the price is physically on the product then they legally have to sell it at that price.

wobzilla wrote: »

if the price is marked wrong, the person in the shop just has to tell you the real price and you can either take it or leave it.

There is no such thing as "citizens arrest" in Ireland. And 99.99% of security guards and professional shoplifter know this.
They have to catch the person in the act and even then they can't lay a hand on the "person" or they can be done for assault.

calex71 wrote: »

What are the laws regards these people being detained by the shop against their will? Citizens arrest or not?

I'm sure if you had shop lifted the Judge would hardly side with a thief on unlawful detention but stranger things happen ?

I'm curious about that one now

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 01-06-2009 6:45pm

BOFH_139 wrote: »

If the price is on PLU or sign yes but if the price is physically on the product then they legally have to sell it at that price.

There is no such thing as "citizens arrest" in Ireland. And 99.99% of security guards and professional shoplifter know this.
They have to catch the person in the act and even then they can't lay a hand on the "person" or they can be done for assault.

No they don't have to sell it to you at the price displayed. As posted in the second post of this thread google "invitation to treat" to see the difference between a price displayed and the price quoted at a till. You may be confused with retailers subscribing to the scanning code of practice - a voluntary undertaking to charge the displayed price. This is not however a legal obligation.

As for the no such thing as a citizens arrest ...

Criminal Law Act, 1997
4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.

Unless this has been updated recently

darc · 01-06-2009 7:17pm

BOFH_139 wrote: »

If the price is on PLU or sign yes but if the price is physically on the product then they legally have to sell it at that price.

Total utter rubbish - its mis-informed comments like this that cause half the problems in retail.

Any store any where does NOT have to sell to anyone even if the customer is paying full price.

darc · 01-06-2009 7:20pm

BOFH_139 wrote: »

They have to catch the person in the act and even then they can't lay a hand on the "person" or they can be done for assault.

More false claims - you can use "reasonable force" to detain a person suspected of an offence whilst waiting for gardai to arrive.

holidayhere · 01-06-2009 7:20pm

wobzilla wrote: »

if the price is marked wrong, the person in the shop just has to tell you the real price and you can either take it or leave it.

I think there is more to it than that.
The young lads were probably caught on camera if the truth be known.....

krudler · 01-06-2009 8:31pm

As someone who used to work in HMV I got this a few times a week, people are just chancers when it comes to this stuff, they dont seem to think someone like me would have put the price on the item themselves and you pretty much know how much everything costs after a certain amount of time working there, the prices dont change that much

Most people back down as soon as you say its not the correct price and the tag has clearly been put on from another dvd (all HMV price tags go in the top right hand corner, sale stuff on the back barcode, yet people used to shove a stick in the middle of a dvd cover and expect to get away with it

wmpdd3 · 01-06-2009 9:07pm

Had this years ago with a lady that came out of the fitting room with a tag for a sale top and a tag for a sale trousers on the wrong items. I knew I couldn't accuse her of doing anything as I had no proof but I refused to sell the items to her.

She blew her top, I used the bar code numbers attached to the care label on the clothes to show her the real price and basically said she could take it or leave it. She complained me to anybody she could find.

About 2 days later I got a call from Citizens Information asking what do we do if items are wrongly priced! I said nothing but just said I could only remember one instance where I removed the item from sale. Various letters were sent to head office but she got nowhere.

Shelflife · 02-06-2009 9:35am

Open to correction here, but technically i believe the boys did nothing wrong, the shop prices the goods -invitation to treat- the boys made a counter offer -switching the tags , the counter offer was refused.

Morally they were chancers, but to hold them and call the guards would put you on thin ice.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 02-06-2009 9:51am

Shelflife wrote: »

Open to correction here, but technically i believe the boys did nothing wrong, the shop prices the goods -invitation to treat- the boys made a counter offer -switching the tags , the counter offer was refused.

Morally they were chancers, but to hold them and call the guards would put you on thin ice.

There is provision within the law that specifies tag or price swapping as being an attempt to defraud the retailler. There's a distinction made between saying at the till I won't pay "x" but will offer "y" and a deliberate attempt to pass the goods off as being "y"

If someone switches tags like that they are deemed to have taken possession of the items and modified them without the owners consent. It's an infringement on the retailers invitation to treat. The retailer is the owner and they are the only person with the right to change a price tag. By changing the price tag a person has in essence stolen that right and is deemed to have stolen / made an attempt to steal the items at that point.

rubadub · 02-06-2009 12:22pm

Yes, I have heard it is fraud too. If they were clever one guy would change the tag and leave and head home, then the other would buy it. Then if caught there is no evidence of him swapping them. Not sure what would happen to the lad who did do it if caught as he made no attempt to buy it.

If someone switches tags like that they are deemed to have taken possession of the items and modified them without the owners consent. It's an infringement on the retailers invitation to treat. The retailer is the owner and they are the only person with the right to change a price tag. By changing the price tag a person has in essence stolen that right and is deemed to have stolen / made an attempt to steal the items at that point.

From reading that it sounds like he could be done just leaving the shop empty handed.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 02-06-2009 12:34pm

rubadub wrote: »

Yes, I have heard it is fraud too. If they were clever one guy would change the tag and leave and head home, then the other would buy it. Then if caught there is no evidence of him swapping them. Not sure what would happen to the lad who did do it if caught as he made no attempt to buy it.

From reading that it sounds like he could be done just leaving the shop empty handed.

Yep - it's the same as somebody stealing the goods and then throwing them in the bin outside. Just because you have dropped the goods doesn't mean you didn't commit the offence of stealing them in the first place.

By the way for what it's worth you don't have to actually leave the store to be done for shoplifiting either - once you pass the last point of payment without paying you can be stopped. You could walk through a checkout and be heading for the door when stopped and even if you have not actually left the premises can be charged with theft.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 02-06-2009 12:36pm

rubadub wrote: »

Not sure what would happen to the lad who did do it if caught as he made no attempt to buy it.

Although he made no attempt to buy it the switching of the tags is enough for him to be charged with theft.

Fighting Irish · 02-06-2009 1:10pm

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Google Invitation to Treat.

Sure we might as well close boards then, we have google

Corruptedmorals · 02-06-2009 5:09pm

This happens frequently, particularly with red sale stickers being stuck onto something full price that you know was only delivered and you yourself put out that morning or something. You can usually tell when a price sticker has been put on by hand rather than a pricing gun, no good in accusing them though, it could have been someone else. Nobody/no manager has ever backed down and sold it at the 'wrong' price. People seem to think that we look at the price tags and 'ring them up' that way.

As for shoplifting- Dunnes policy and I'd imagine many others is waiting for the person to exit and then nabbing them. You might know well they're going to walk out the door but you're better off giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're just picking up an item at the door. If you pass by the tills with stock..you could just be going to another part of the shop. It's quite funny watching security follow someone down the aisle to the door on their radios.

krudler · 03-06-2009 8:38pm

Shelflife wrote: »

Open to correction here, but technically i believe the boys did nothing wrong, the shop prices the goods -invitation to treat- the boys made a counter offer -switching the tags , the counter offer was refused.

Morally they were chancers, but to hold them and call the guards would put you on thin ice.

What rubbish, so I can start switching the tags on everything in any shop and expect to kick up a fuss when I'm called a chancer on it?

catch88 · 05-06-2009 2:23pm

Shelflife wrote: »

Open to correction here, but technically i believe the boys did nothing wrong, the shop prices the goods -invitation to treat- the boys made a counter offer -switching the tags , the counter offer was refused.

Morally they were chancers, but to hold them and call the guards would put you on thin ice.

Defacing store property maybe?

If i had put the price on a bag and then someone comes along, rips it off and then replaces it with another ripped off label id take it as defacement of my store's property.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 05-06-2009 3:43pm

Just going to repost my earlier post on this

Your'e quite right Catch88 by amending the prices they are deemed to have taken the items and modified them without consent ......

There is provision within the law that specifies tag or price swapping as being an attempt to defraud the retailler. There's a distinction made between saying at the till I won't pay "x" but will offer "y" and a deliberate attempt to pass the goods off as being "y"

If someone switches tags like that they are deemed to have taken possession of the items and modified them without the owners consent. It's an infringement on the retailers invitation to treat. The retailer is the owner and they are the only person with the right to change a price tag. By changing the price tag a person has in essence stolen that right and is deemed to have stolen / made an attempt to steal the items at that point.

Greenmachine · 05-06-2009 7:48pm

Gamesnash.ie (Pat) wrote: »

Just going to repost my earlier post on this Your'e quite right Catch88 by amending the prices they are deemed to have taken the items and modified them without consent ......

There is provision within the law that specifies tag or price swapping as being an attempt to defraud the retailler. There's a distinction made between saying at the till I won't pay "x" but will offer "y" and a deliberate attempt to pass the goods off as being "y"

If someone switches tags like that they are deemed to have taken possession of the items and modified them without the owners consent. It's an infringement on the retailers invitation to treat. The retailer is the owner and they are the only person with the right to change a price tag. By changing the price tag a person has in essence stolen that right and is deemed to have stolen / made an attempt to steal the items at that point.

I was initially under the impression that most in this thread were talking through their h0les, but you have argued your points well. Short of qouting relevant laws. I am pretty convinced if not a little dissapointed.

From what i learned of consumer law. The prices is not set and technically it is consumer who makes the offer. The retailer then has the right to either accept or decline this offer. This caused some issue for myself because of course retailers are required to dislplay prices.

These effectively forces the consumer to not make a unique offer but merely to match the Retailers invitation to treat. By makling a provision against the changing of prices tags, it has effectively removed the consumers right to make an offer.

If legislation said the retailer sets a price which at their disretion they can reduce. It would be more clear taht changing the price was cheating the retailer. JMHO.

wmpdd3 · 06-06-2009 9:02pm

That's really well put, usually theory books make no sense in the real world.

Zillah · 06-06-2009 9:13pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

These effectively forces the consumer to not make a unique offer but merely to match the Retailers invitation to treat. By makling a provision against the changing of prices tags, it has effectively removed the consumers right to make an offer.

Do you mean to imply that swapping tags is the only means you can imagine by which to make a unique offer? They could walk up to the counter and speak an alternate offer. They most likely be told where to go, but they can still make the offer.

Greenmachine · 07-06-2009 5:39pm

Zillah wrote: »

Do you mean to imply that swapping tags is the only means you can imagine by which to make a unique offer? They could walk up to the counter and speak an alternate offer. They most likely be told where to go, but they can still make the offer.

In the circumstance described above yes you are lkimited in how you can make an offer. Now with barcodes used pretty much everywhere, you just get on with and pay whatever the retailer wants you to pay for it. Well I do anyway. Don't really have time for switching tags anymore, although I have been tempted.

What's the law regarding swapping price tags?

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