Left 4 Dead... 2.

giggsy664

TBH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQe4tlsfRbY

NB: Contains Hitler, Possibly NSFW

Maximilian

Kirby wrote: »

You have missed the logic. L4D is only out about a year before we see L4D2. Left for dead 2 runs on the exact same engine.

Counter-strike was around for several years. It was updated to 1.3, and then again to 1.5 with patching throughout the years. Then, they released 1.6. For FREE.

CS 1.6 was a brand NEW engine. They rebuilt the game. And gave it out for free if you had bought the original CS years back.

By the time CS:Source was released, another new engine, about 5 years had passed since the original purchase. See what I'm saying?

Obviously, times have changed and we live in an era of consumer gouging DLC. But this isnt even DLC. They are passing off an add-on pack as a full retail game.

They are more than welcome to try and it will probably sell decently. But just like the Horse armour, the street fighter 4 Costumes, and the resident evil 5 multiplayer code..... If you try and treat me like an idiot I am going spend my money elsewhere.

I'm baffled by your argument. I really am. So its a case of time and the choice of engine? So if they released L4d2 say 6 months later, say, a year - that would be ok? If it was a different engine, that would be fine? God, I wonder how many sequels of games have been released over the years using the same engine as their predecessor. How do you even know it will be exactly the same engine here in any event? The AI is already modified for example. Perhaps the graphics too.

Comparing this to DLC or even an add-on is utter nonsense. From what we know already, this is is a bigger game than the original. More weapons, more maps, more infected than the first game. Yeah, right. It's horse armour. Of course it is.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Kirby

Maximilian wrote: »

I'm baffled by your argument. I really am. So its a case of time and the choice of engine? So if they released L4d2 say 6 months later, say, a year - that would be ok?

Comparing this to DLC or even an add-on is utter nonsense. From what we know already, this is is a bigger game than the original. More weapons, more maps, more infected than the first game. Yeah, right. It's horse armour. Of course it is.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Maybe I should use a bigger font or something.....

You're still not getting it. They started work on this the moment L4D went gold. This content was planned to be the free updates.... ala TF2. They promised this ad naseum prior to release. But now, the bean counters decided to charge full whack for it instead and turn it into a sequel.... instead of releasing each campaign every few months, they release nothing and combine it all together.

Take fallout3 for example. Bethesda relased Anchorage after launch, then the Pit, and then Broken Steel. All spaced a few months apart for a price. Instead of doing this, Imaging if they released none of it, and combined the 3 DLC pakcs into a new full release title. See where I'm going? As Valve were making this stuff, they held it back. They couldve released new chapters since release and didnt so they could combine it all for the "new" game. They ball-faced-lied.

Now, obviously Fallout 3 wasnt free DLC but thats not really the issue. Valve promised new content. They arent keeping it.

I likened it the the Horse Armour, SF4 costumes, and RE5 Multiplayer as other examples where companies attempt to screw their customers. It's not a DLC per se, just recent examples of companies telling porkies.

Listen, for me its not a big deal. I just wont buy it. And its not like our good friends at Valve are alone in this practice. But you cannot parade around the games industry with this persona of "Loving your fanbase" and then pull this crap. It wont fly.

They can do what they like, its just bizarre that some people defend this stuff.

thebman

I think people are underestimating the size of the update. People who keep saying that it could have been done as an expansion probably aren't considering where Valve seem to be going with the AI Director.

Ultimately the goal is to have a game that changes considerably from play to play even on the same campaigns. This starts with L4D and you play it and they fix whatever is wrong with health placements etc... and then introduce some new modes and will try to fix anything that is wrong with them.

Then they'll release the second one with all of those things and the new AI features and probably things like dynamic weather and changing time of day games are based and other things and introduce new enemies. Some of these things will probably be considerable improvements that deserve a new release at least in Valve's eyes.

Personally I think TF2 is exceptional and I couldn't ask Valve to support all their games like that or they wouldn't be in business for very long IMO.

I'd probably be a lot more p*ssed off if I had paid for L4D but I got it for free. I can see why people are pissed off but I'll how many additions Valve make before I call rip off.

5uspect

Kirby wrote: »

Take fallout3 for example. Bethesda relased Anchorage after launch, then the Pit, and then Broken Steel. All spaced a few months apart for a price. Instead of doing this, Imaging if they released none of it, and combined the 3 DLC pakcs into a new full release title. See where I'm going? As Valve were making this stuff, they held it back. They couldve released new chapters since release and didnt so they could combine it all for the "new" game. They ball-faced-lied.

Now, obviously Fallout 3 wasnt free DLC but thats not really the issue. Valve promised new content. They arent keeping it.

I likened it the the Horse Armour, SF4 costumes, and RE5 Multiplayer as other examples where companies attempt to screw their customers. It's not a DLC per se, just recent examples of companies telling porkies.

Listen, for me its not a big deal. I just wont buy it. And its not like our good friends at Valve are alone in this practice. But you cannot parade around the games industry with this persona of "Loving your fanbase" and then pull this crap. It wont fly.

They can do what they like, its just bizarre that some people defend this stuff.

So Operation Anchorage, The Pitt and Broken Steel combined are bigger than Fallout3? I see where you're coming from but you're clutching at straws.

Maximilian

Reading everything I have both here and on the Steam forums, my conclusion is that people are just spoiled. They've become so used to getting "free" stuff from Valve, that now they feel a sense of betrayal that Valve have the temerity to release a quick sequel and charge money for it.

Sure of course we'd all love to get it as free content but I have to laugh at the naivety of those who feel not just that they should get it for free but that they're actually entitled to it for free. The same people who will argue their case (as per internet norms) until everyone gets bored, walks away and then tell themselves they were in the right all along. Debate on the internet is so pointless.

Kirby

5uspect wrote: »

So Operation Anchorage, The Pitt and Broken Steel combined are bigger than Fallout3? I see where you're coming from but you're clutching at straws.

Yes because "examples" is clearly just another word for "exact same as!" :rolleyes: Sometimes I wonder if people actually read a post before replying.

Maximilian wrote: »

Reading everything I have both here and on the Steam forums, my conclusion is that people are just spoiled. They've become so used to getting "free" stuff from Valve, that now they feel a sense of betrayal that Valve have the temerity to release a quick sequel and charge money for it.

Sure of course we'd all love to get it as free content but I have to laugh at the naivety of those who feel not just that they should get it for free but that they're actually entitled to it for free.

You may have a point with this. Also, would anyobdy be shocked if EA or Activision pulled this? probably not. Sometimes your good reputation goes against you.

I think what bugs people the most is being lied to. I'm sure everyone who bought L4D loved it. and more left for dead is great surely. Its just the manner in which is has all come about. Shame really. Im sure the new content will be an improvement.

thebman

I'd say the reality is people weren't lied to but circumstances changed.

It could well be that Valve can't afford to give the content away for free given the financial crisis. I'm sure they have investors they have to answer to.

If they said, well we are working on a massive update to L4D that is even bigger than the original game and said they were giving it away for free and profits are down 50% then I'm sure they'd get a few odd looks.

Kirby

Fair point about the financial crisis. Some businesses have to adapt. But there is a perception about the "huge update" that is just wrong. Its only huge because they decided to make it so. They couldve added one of the new infected as an update...... a new chapter as one update......new weather effects as an update.

Yes, added althogether it seems alot but incremental updates were possible like with TF2. They havent really released a whole lot since launch.

Now, obviously the new and improved AI director couldnt just be wedged in. but the rest of it is just skins and textures. How do you think they have churned out 4 new campaigns so fast?

Maximilian

I think people are just plain wrong about Valve. They seem to think that they are some kind of benevolent charitable organisation. Don't get me wrong, I think they are just utterly brilliant but I have no doubt whatsoever they do what they do as much for the money as the pursuance of their art.

I always wondered why they released so much stuff for TF2 for free, until I read that they sold bucketloads every time they did so. Its a win-win scenario that I'd love to see continue and indeed emulated by others but don't think Valve aren't trying their damndest to get your hard earned money.

That's all fine by me. They deserve my money and I'm happy to support them, so they can make more games. I shudder to think how many hours I spent playing L4D1 and how many more I'll spend on its sequel. You just cannot complain when you get value for money in spades. I think that's what irks me the most about the people up-in-arms about this. I've played an awful lot of games over the years that I bought and finished in a weekend (Dead Space being the last one). I think Terminator Salvation can be finished in just a few hours.

..and for the record, I predict in a year's time there will be a ton of new stuff for L4D1, from both Valve and from modders.

Atlas_IRL

Last point makes sense, l4d was 30-50 euro for people. Thats a cheap night out. Ive played it most nights for months and when you into the friends only games the game rocks.

The value for money is very good.

Kirby

Maximilian wrote: »

I predict in a year's time there will be a ton of new stuff for L4D1, from both Valve and from modders.

I think what they will do, is make the first content for L4D2, usable for both. So that the levels will work with both versions of the game. Seems the most efficient way to me. Everybody wins.

5uspect

Kirby wrote: »

Yes because "examples" is clearly just another word for "exact same as!" :rolleyes: Sometimes I wonder if people actually read a post before replying.

No, it's just a really bad example. :pac:

Ciaran500

Kirby wrote: »

You're still not getting it. They started work on this the moment L4D went gold. This content was planned to be the free updates....

Did they ever say it would be free? I remember hearing mentions of DLC but not specifically free.

5uspect

Valve have always said in the past that once you've bought the game, updates will be free.

Atlas_IRL

and they have been. L4D2 is an entirely new game, albeit brought out a bit quickly which is enraging the community.

conzy

Didnt read the whole thread but was there any indication that this is a new engine? Or is it just an another source engine overhaul?

OK-Cancel-Apply

L4D gets reeeeally repetitive... I welcome a whole new game.

Overheal

thebman wrote: »

It could well be that Valve can't afford to give the content away for free given the financial crisis. I'm sure they have investors they have to answer to.

If they said, well we are working on a massive update to L4D that is even bigger than the original game and said they were giving it away for free and profits are down 50% then I'm sure they'd get a few odd looks.

No I agree with you. Their revenue stream has got to be way down as a consequence of the recent recession.

But I should also point out they don't have investors: they aren't publicly traded. Its just Gabe and Robin's show really. Its not like EA which legally has to turn a profit, or answer to shareholders, or release X number of products every quarter.

Still, their good reputation is acting against them. Yes, the players expect too much, and maybe valve gave too much, but thats the precedent they set, and promised. If they had to back away from that agreement, they could have told [us] first, before a surprise E3 announcement.

conzymaher wrote: »

Didnt read the whole thread but was there any indication that this is a new engine? Or is it just an another source engine overhaul?

I dont hear any mention of a source engine overhaul. The AI Director is almost an engine in itself though, really. It now not only handles zombies, difficulty, pacing and each player's own music track, but now also incorporates random pathing (presumably, random pathing, we have yet to see how simple or complex the feature really is) and weather effects.

I dont expect the pathing thing to be as innovative as it sounds on paper, or it wouldnt be accessible to the mod community. Rather I am sticking to my hypothesis that the AI will select from a set of pretermined prefabs for certain parts of a level, based on the player's performance. If it were entirely Procedural, it would be a great deal more complicated and difficult to implement, especially on user-made maps.

There is a lot of new stuff in there. I dont think it could be called a complete L4D 2.0, rather a 1.5 though.

Probably if the recession hadn't happened (the reality of which only sunk in after Valve made these promises) they would have released it as DLC. But what theyre trying to do it seems, is trying poorly to save face while at the same time get their players to pay more. All it really would have taken was a simple "The recession hurt us, so look, we have to do something here..." and I think, you would have seen a much more positive reaction from their fans. Instead, they pulled a fast one on the community, and they got called on it.

Kirby

Yup, agree totally with that. As I said earlier, it's not so much what they are doing, it's how they went about it. People feel a bit betrayed.

Still, hopefully they will make big improvements. If its a marked improvement, most of this will be forgotten by launch. They need "smarter" zombies in my opinion. Ofcourse, the mainstay is the slow sauntering zombies, and then the 28 days later like swarms....but a bit more variety is needed. Maybe a Zombie Brain! :P

Gunmonkey

I just find the "Original content in L4D is getting dull, it wasnt enough, needs more variety".

Wow, the game lasted you about half a year before it got old. So if Valve released all the stuff in L4D2 now as free DLC, by Christmas you would be bitching and complaining about the DLC stuff being "dull, it wasnt enough, needed more variety" and complaining to Valve for more free scenarios, weapons, special infected you would get bored of in about 6 months.


You want to win over my vote, show me how much is copied from L4D1 to L4D2.....

Kirby

Gunmonkey wrote: »

You want to win over my vote, show me how much is copied from L4D1 to L4D2.....

What is this, Valve Idol? .

Overheal

Maximilian

Kirby wrote: »

What is this, Valve Idol? .

Hmm if that were the case then I reckon your good self and Mr. Overheal would Simon Cowell. :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcc8RD4OJ4w

Overheal

Once youve seen this, you have higher standards for celebrity parodies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6dsmx8YmPs

Maximilian

No. Peter Serafinowicz is a genius. look him up on you tube and come back to me

Overheal

Ugh. The last thing I need to be doing today is getting lost on youtube.

On the valve side of things Im not sure I believe their top sellers list, which shows L4D in the #1 slot this week. Hmmm.

http://store.steampowered.com/feeds/weeklytopsellers.xml

Overheal

Valve's E3 announcement that Left 4 Dead 2 would hit this year, almost one year to the day after the original, has seen mixed response. Nearly 25,000 fans of the original have pledged not to purchase the sequel. Why?

As outlined in the Left 4 Dead 2 boycott group's manifesto, that group of fans believe that the "stand-alone sequel will split the communities and decrease the quality of multiplayer gaming." Miffed fans believe that the content so far revealed "does not warrant a stand-alone, full-priced sequel and should instead become updates (free or otherwise)" for the original Left 4 Dead.

We asked Valve for a response to those claims.

"Doing a sequel in one year is new for Valve. But providing ongoing support for our titles after the initial launch isn't - it has been part of our philosophy since Half-Life was released ten and half years ago," said Valve president Gabe Newell in a statement to Kotaku. "We see no reason to change that and will continue to support the over three million customers in the L4D community."

"E3 is a trade event where developers and publishers come to announce new games for the coming year. L4D2 — like any new product — requires an appearance at the show," Newell said.

Valve says, it will continue to support the original with continued updates.

"Some in the community are concerned that the announcement of L4D2 implied a change in our plans for L4D1. We aren't changing our plans for L4D1."

Whether that will allay fears that Left 4 Dead will be left behind by some community members remains to be seen, but Valve notes that it hasn't abandoned the original.

"In addition to the recently released Survival Pack, we are releasing authoring tools for Mod makers, community matchmaking, 4x4 matchmaking, and more new content during the coming months for L4D1," Newell says. "We also agree with our customers that there needs to be an interoperability plan for players of L4D1 and L4D2, as multiplayer games are driven by the cohesiveness of their community."

When we first went hands-on with the Steam version of Left 4 Dead 2 at E3, we felt that the title felt awfully similar to the original. Some of that may simply be due to incremental updates already revealed. As Valve's Chet Faliszek told us at the time, there are still plenty of details left to be doled out, including information on new weapons, two new Special Infected types and more.

Faliszek said at E3 that he very much understood the "gut reaction" to the uncharacteristically Valve move to launch such a quick follow-up. But, he said, as people learn more about the game over the next few months, they'll see why "none of the additions [in Left 4 Dead 2] are trivial."

http://kotaku.com/5286185/valve-responds-to-left-4-dead-2-boycott-vows-support-for-original

I do sincerely hope that means there will be The New Adventures of Zoey and Co. featuring pills: collect them all!

5uspect

Has anyone posted this:
http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/696431/Opening-The-Valve-The-Gabe-Newell-Interview.html
Came across it on the L4D forum.

Sierra Oscar

5uspect wrote: »

How does L4D2 coming out prevent Valve releasing new Campaigns/weapons for L4D?

The thing is, it simply doesn't.:)