Immigration.

af_thefragile

PaulieD wrote: »

What percentage of our immigrant population are students? 1%? You do realise EU citizens have the right to claim grants, just as Irish citizens. You do realise a lot of these "language schools" are completely bogus and set up so non EU citizens can work here. Another loophole, my friend.

Dunno the numbers, but it looks quite a lot... Like there are loads of foreign student in my college who're paying ridiculous amounts of money in college fees.

Don't think my college could survive without em...



I do see the loopholes though. But most of the language courses are only like a year long or something... They'll have to go back once the course is over...

esharknz

PaulieD wrote: »

What percentage of our immigrant population are students? 1%? You do realise EU citizens have the right to claim grants, just as Irish citizens. You do realise a lot of these "language schools" are completely bogus and set up so non EU citizens can work here. Another loophole, my friend.

This loophole has been closed to some extent. Many language students will receive a student visa which has a "no work" condition attached.

Some students are allowed to work for up to 20 hours a week during term time, but this is pretty standard internationally. If Ireland cuts this, then countries such as Australia and New Zealand will seem all the much more appealing.

PaulieD

esharknz wrote: »

This loophole has been closed to some extent. Many language students will receive a student visa which has a "no work" condition attached.

Some students are allowed to work for up to 20 hours a week during term time, but this is pretty standard internationally. If Ireland cuts this, then countries such as Australia and New Zealand will seem all the much more appealing.

It is a hard one to police, I agree. It is no loss though if people here "studying english" leave to "study english" somewhere else in the anglosphere.

Non EU nationals atudying in recognised universities and colleges should be allowed work up to 20 hours a week. Those "studying english" in unrecognised schools should not. Problem solved.

esharknz

PaulieD wrote: »

It is a hard one to police, I agree. It is no loss though if people here "studying english" leave to "study english" somewhere else in the anglosphere.

Non EU nationals atudying in recognised universities and colleges should be allowed work up to 20 hours a week. Those "studying english" in unrecognised schools should not. Problem solved.

They aren't allowed to work if attending a language school, from my understanding, except in limited circumstances (e.g. person is married to an EU national exercising treaty rights).

Some people in the past did abuse the student visa using language schools, but I've seen some very similar cases happen in other countries too, mine included. Always one of the problems and is something that makes it harder on genuine people.

af_thefragile

PaulieD wrote: »

It is a hard one to police, I agree. It is no loss though if people here "studying english" leave to "study english" somewhere else in the anglosphere.

Non EU nationals atudying in recognised universities and colleges should be allowed work up to 20 hours a week. Those "studying english" in unrecognised schools should not. Problem solved.

I think its allowed cuz the government will grab any source of revenue it can get. When these immigrants pay to "study english" they're still spending money in the country which adds to the countries revenue.
Also they're paying for the visa and stuff. Which is again a bit of revenue for the country.

But i think, and if esharkunz says its right, these language school students can't work... which is then not a problem i guess.

Foreign students here studying medicine are paying upto 40k a year in fees. Which if you ask me is a lot of revenue for the country.

djpbarry

Dob74 wrote: »

We need to let in workers of high skills(ie doctors, engineers etc.) and stop letting in just anybody.

Just because somebody does not have any qualifications (I presume that’s what you mean by skills?), it does not mean that they cannot make a valuable economic contribution (and vice versa).

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

Just because somebody does not have any qualifications (I presume that’s what you mean by skills?), it does not mean that they cannot make a valuable economic contribution (and vice versa).

We dont need anymore non skilled workers. The dole office is full of them. Ever hear the phrase "importing poverty"? If you didnt you will in the future, as we are doing so.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

We dont need anymore non skilled workers. The dole office is full of them.

Is it? What are you basing that on?

Even if you are right, my point still stands.

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

Is it? What are you basing that on?

Even if you are right, my point still stands.

Facts my dear boy. You should try it some time. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0305/1224242304274.html

Why do we need to import more non skilled workers?

af_thefragile

But if there are no jobs, what are the non-skilled people gonna do here?

Also I don't get it why there are so many non-skilled workers (people in shops and such) who aren't Irish while all the non-skilled Irish are unemployed...?

Who is to blame here?
The immigrants who're coming here and taking all the jobs...
or
The non-skilled Irish who're living off dole money and so not trying hard enough...

PaulieD

af_thefragile wrote: »

But if there are no jobs, what are the non-skilled people gonna do here?

Also I don't get it why there are so many non-skilled workers (people in shops and such) who aren't Irish while all the non-skilled Irish are unemployed...?

Who is to blame here?
The immigrants who're coming here and taking all the jobs...
or
The non-skilled Irish who're living off dole money and so not trying hard enough...

That is a rather simplified explanation. There are a number of factors to take into account. We need to come up with some sort of long term plan with regards to welfare and immigration.

The fact is in the last few years we have had mass immigration with no real government policy. We need a more transparent system to put the myths and rumours to bed. We also need an immigration policy that reflects our current economic situation.

I welcome the new changes to Non EU citizens, but believe those already here should be exempt.

I also believe all those given leave to remain unless they become an economic burden and never worked a day here should be repatriated.

We also seriously have to look at eastern european immigration to Ireland. Work permits should be put in place. Those with existing PPS numbers should again be exempt. Germany has done this, europes largest economy. While in Ireland, a bankrupt small island has had a free for all. Time to end this madness.

Asylum is a shambles. Needs serious reform, the processing times are a joke.

Social welfare for non nationals, work here on minimum wage for two years and lose your job. Get 204 euro a week and all the benfits that come with it. Lunacy on stilts. Refund all PRSI payments to the immigrant and sin e. In Poland a foreigner needs to work there for ten years before they are entitled to anything.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

af_thefragile

PaulieD wrote: »

That is a rather simplified explanation. There are a number of factors to take into account. We need to come up with some sort of long term plan with regards to welfare and immigration.

The fact is in the last few years we have had mass immigration with no real government policy. We need a more transparent system to put the myths and rumours to bed. We also need an immigration policy that reflects our current economic situation.

I welcome the new changes to Non EU citizens, but believe those already here should be exempt.

I also believe all those given leave to remain unless they become an economic burden and never worked a day here should be repatriated.

We also seriously have to look at eastern european immigration to Ireland. Work permits should be put in place. Those with existing PPS numbers should again be exempt. Germany has done this, europes largest economy. While in Ireland, a bankrupt small island has had a free for all. Time to end this madness.

Asylum is a shambles. Needs serious reform, the processing times are a joke.

Social welfare for non nationals, work here on minimum wage for two years and lose your job. Get 204 euro a week and all the benfits that come with it. Lunacy on stilts. Refund all PRSI payments to the immigrant and sin e. In Poland a foreigner needs to work there for ten years before they are entitled to anything.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

You see, i do think these reforms would temporarily solve the job and economic crisis in the country.
But by doing this we're only fighting the symptoms while doing nothing to solve the core problem which is the lack of jobs in the country.

Also i wouldn't mind the government increasing fences around its borders but that is taking steps towards socialism.

If we keep increasing regulation, stopping more and more immigrants from coming in, increasing taxes to pay for inefficient services like health and education and the dole, what we'll be eventually left with is something along the lines of Nazi Germany. Where no one from outside can step in, no one from inside can step out and the government baby sitting the population.

Instead, if we cut the dole, it'll make the Irish work harder to find jobs and it'll send all the welfare scamming immigrants back home, so then there will be less immigrants and more jobs, Irish won't have to work as hard to find a job.
If we reduce taxes, it'll attract more foreign businesses bringing in more jobs, it'll leave the Irish residents with more money in their pockets, Irish businesses can grow more freely, creating further more jobs and soon we'ld need immigrants in this country to come and fill in for the amount of jobs available.


P.S. btw, can you tell me what these new changes are for Non EU people?? I don't think i have been aware of this...

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Facts my dear boy. You should try it some time. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0305/1224242304274.html

I’m looking through that article for “facts” to back up your assertion that dole offices are “full” of “non-skilled” workers and I’m not seeing any.

PaulieD wrote: »

Why do we need to import more non skilled workers?

How about you first of all define what a “non-skilled worker” is?

PaulieD wrote: »

We also seriously have to look at eastern european immigration to Ireland. Work permits should be put in place.

Would that not be a contravention of EU law? And why should we focus on immigration from Eastern Europe?

PaulieD wrote: »

Germany has done this, europes largest economy. While in Ireland, a bankrupt small island has had a free for all.

Germany opted to impose restrictions prior to enlargement in 2004. Ireland didn’t. Time to move on.

PaulieD wrote: »

Social welfare for non nationals, work here on minimum wage for two years and lose your job. Get 204 euro a week and all the benfits that come with it. Lunacy on stilts. Refund all PRSI payments to the immigrant and sin e.

I think you need to look up the meaning of the term “insurance”.

PaulieD wrote: »

In Poland a foreigner needs to work there for ten years before they are entitled to anything.

Source?

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m looking through that article for “facts” to back up your assertion that dole offices are “full” of “non-skilled” workers and I’m not seeing any.
How about you first of all define what a “non-skilled worker” is?

Someone who left school early or has no qualifications or trade.

Would that not be a contravention of EU law? And why should we focus on immigration from Eastern Europe?

As they are the largest group arriving here. Harney said, prior to them joining, we could restrict immigration from the accession states if it caused untold and unforeseen problems and revert back to the work permit scheme.

Germany opted to impose restrictions prior to enlargement in 2004. Ireland didn’t. Time to move on.
They are still arriving. 8,000 poles alone from Jan 1st to May31st.

I think you need to look up the meaning of the term “insurance”.
Source?

Problem is, social welfare for non nationals seems to be the insurance that never stops paying. When do we say enough is enough?

Nodin

PaulieD wrote: »

Problem is, social welfare for non nationals seems to be the insurance that never stops paying.

It does stop paying, so what are you on about?

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

It does stop paying, so what are you on about?

How long do payments last for?

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

The EU average of intra-EU migration of EU nationals is (by definition) zero. In other words, it’s meaningless.

No, djpbarry, no. We're not all one big country now that we're in the EU. And even if we were all in one big country that would still not be a good enough reason for us to ignore the problem. If half the population of Dublin decided they wanted to move to Louth don't you think the people of Louth would be justified in raising an objection?

djpbarry wrote:

How many people are we taking in?

According to this site, around 36,000 non-Irish people applied for PPS numbers in the first 5 months of the year. That's an average of 7,000 a month or 220 a day. If it continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see over 80,000 foreigners applying for PPS numbers this year. That would be equivalent to Britain taking in 800 thousand in one year. That's a massive number for a country with so few jobs and so many people out of work. We can't go at this level for much longer. Something needs to be done about it soon.

deadhead13 wrote:

140,000 PPS numbers were issued to foreign nationals last year, which is 50,000 less than 2007. 100,000 left the country. That is a net of 40,000 (admittly this does not include dependents) which is nowhere near 14 per 1000.

If you look at the article you linked to, you'll see that the figure of 140,000 PPS numbers just covered the first ten months of last year. If you divide 140,000 by ten you'll get 14,000 people a month. If people were coming here at a rate of 14,000 people a month for the first ten months, and assuming it continued at the same rate for the last two months, that would have meant an extra 28,000 added to the total. Add 28,000 to 40,000 and you get 68,000 which is over 1.5% of the total population. Multiple that by ten and it works out at 15 immigrants per 1000 people in the population.

PaulieD wrote:

Harney said, prior to them joining, we could restrict immigration from the accession states if it caused untold and unforeseen problems and revert back to the work permit scheme.

Dick Roche, the minister for Europe, made the same point during an exchange with Anthony Coughlan on a radio programme prior to the Nice Treaty referendum.

This article contains a transcript of the interview
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/08/18/story187011628.asp

Dick Roche wrote:

that letter -- that we didn't see the necessity to introduce derogations on free movement. That doesn't mean that we cannot. . . in any way stop from using the legal mechanisms that exists . . .

Dick Roche wrote:

This is part of the existing community basic law. If this disruption occurs, we can actually use this . . .

Dick Roche wrote:

The Commission will monitor it and see how it develops. We, as a member state, can go to the Commission and ask it to take special measures. Those special measures exist under existing law, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the Nice Treaty . . .

KINGVictor

PaulieD wrote: »

Problem is, social welfare for non nationals seems to be the insurance that never stops paying. When do we say enough is enough?

When The undocumented(illegal ) Irish in the US,Canada,Australia etc are given the exact treatment as the ones been proposed by you and when the strong able bodied men and women stop claiming the dole in the UK.

Unlike most members of the OECD,Ireland has very little moral justification to moan about immigrants.

PaulieD

KINGVictor wrote: »

When The undocumented(illegal ) Irish in the US,Canada,Australia etc are given the exact treatment as the ones been proposed by you and when the strong able bodied men and women stop claiming the dole in the UK.

Unlike most members of the OECD,Ireland has very little moral justification to moan about immigrants.

I get sick of hearing about Irish emigration in the past, being used to justify unlimited immigration to Ireland in the present. It is akin to the mainland European countries constantly getting hit with their imperialist past by the rest of the world.
When the Irish emigrated they went to the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The people that lived in these places were for the most part all descended from the same group of people who originated from the same part of the world. A part of the World that includes Ireland The Irish, are genetically and culturally, very similar, almost identical to the people in the countries they emigrated to.
Past Irish emigration should not be used in arguments for immigration. The liberal PC left are constantly bring this one up and it p****s me off.

We are a sovereign nation and can act in our own interests.

fly_agaric

KINGVictor wrote: »

Unlike most members of the OECD,Ireland has very little moral justification to moan about immigrants.

Could you explain why other OECD members have more right to complain/("moan") than us?

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Someone who left school early or has no qualifications or trade.

I see. So someone like Bill Gates? He has no qualifications (that I’m aware of). Lawrence Ellison? Ingvar Kamprad? Dermot Desmond? None of these men have any trades or third-level qualifications (that I’m aware of).

PaulieD wrote: »

As they are the largest group arriving here.

Well, yeah, if you group all “Easter European” states together :rolleyes:. But if we’re talking about individual states, then Britain tops the list, but that fact is usually ignored in discussions on immigration.

PaulieD wrote: »

They are still arriving. 8,000 poles alone from Jan 1st to May31st.

I don’t recall stating that “they” were not “still arriving”. What’s your source for the 8,000 figure?

PaulieD wrote: »

Problem is, social welfare for non nationals seems to be the insurance that never stops paying.

Really? So foreigners get all the welfare they need for as long as they need it, eh?

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

I see. So someone like Bill Gates? He has no qualifications (that I’m aware of). Lawrence Ellison? Ingvar Kamprad? Dermot Desmond? None of these men have any trades or third-level qualifications (that I’m aware of).

Always an exception to the rule.

Well, yeah, if you group all “Easter European” states together :rolleyes:. But if we’re talking about individual states, then Britain tops the list, but that fact is usually ignored in discussions on immigration.

I will refer to them as the accession states. Better? Do you honestly believe their are more British nationals here than poles? Or more Germans than Chinese? The CSO has been debunked. It was way off. The Polish Association in Ireland claimed there could be up to 500,000 poles here. Granted this was two years ago.
http://www.krakowpost.com/article/665

I don’t recall stating that “they” were not “still arriving”. What’s your source for the 8,000 figure?
PPS numbers issued from January 1st to May 27st, 7342.
See here ;http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx


Really? So foreigners get all the welfare they need for as long as they need it, eh?

None are starving thats for sure, not in to much of a rush to leave the place either,mind.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

No, djpbarry, no. We're not all one big country now that we're in the EU.

I think you need to re-read what I wrote.

Tell you what; why don’t you go and find out what the net migration of EU citizens is between Ireland and the other EU member states. Then find out what the respective figures are for all the other EU states. Take the average of all of those figures and let me know what you end up with (I’ll give you a clue – the answer is in this thread).

O'Morris wrote: »

According to this site, around 36,000 non-Irish people applied for PPS numbers in the first 5 months of the year.

Super. Now all you have to do is demonstrate that those 36,000 non-Irish people are all new arrivals. Seeing as how you’ve failed to do that on every other thread that you’ve mentioned PPS numbers (how many is it now? 5? 6?), I’m pretty sure you’ll fail to do it again here.

O'Morris wrote: »

Dick Roche, the minister for Europe, made the same point during an exchange with Anthony Coughlan on a radio programme prior to the Nice Treaty referendum.

This article contains a transcript of the interview
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/08/18/story187011628.asp

Perhaps you could outline the mechanisms that are in place which Ireland could use to restrict the freedom of movement of other EU nationals? Maybe Dick could explain them to you?

KINGVictor

PaulieD wrote: »

I get sick of hearing about Irish emigration in the past, being used to justify unlimited immigration to Ireland in the present. It is akin to the mainland European countries constantly getting hit with their imperialist past by the rest of the world.
When the Irish emigrated they went to the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The people that lived in these places were for the most part all descended from the same group of people who originated from the same part of the world. A part of the World that includes Ireland The Irish, are genetically and culturally, very similar, almost identical to the people in the countries they emigrated to.
Past Irish emigration should not be used in arguments for immigration. The liberal PC left are constantly bring this one up and it p****s me off.

We are a sovereign nation and can act in our own interests.

Are you suggesting that because the Irish are "genetically and culturally" similar to the US,we should be treated differently than other human beings .That would be totally stupid.

KINGVictor

fly_agaric wrote: »

Could you explain why other OECD members have more right to complain/("moan") than us?

Because none of the others are asking another member country to grant asylum to its citizens...I dont need to explain any further.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

When the Irish emigrated they went to the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The people that lived in these places were for the most part all descended from the same group of people who originated from the same part of the world.

I can think of quite a few peoples who might have something to say about that.

PaulieD wrote: »

Always an exception to the rule.

The rule being that “non-skilled” people are economically worthless?

PaulieD wrote: »

Do you honestly believe their are more British nationals here than poles?

Yes, I do. Based on the available evidence, I think it’s quite a reasonable conclusion. You don’t think that there are a large number of British people living in Ireland?

PaulieD wrote: »

The CSO has been debunked. It was way off. The Polish Association in Ireland claimed there could be up to 500,000 poles here. Granted this was two years ago.
http://www.krakowpost.com/article/665

The title of that article rids the publication of any credibility. Seriously – you think that’s a more reliable source than the CSO?

PaulieD wrote: »

PPS numbers issued from January 1st to May 27st, 7342.
See here ;http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN...l_month09.aspx

I’ll say the same thing to you that I said to O’Morris above regarding PPS numbers.

PaulieD wrote: »

None are starving thats for sure, not in to much of a rush to leave the place either,mind.

Is that a ‘no’?

g5fd6ow0hseima

I feel that immigrants will come to Ireland as long as the country has something to offer to them. The reality that it takes two years working before social benefit can be obtained means that Stanislav or Ahmed wont look upon this country as a haven for free money. Currently, this country is on its last legs in an economic sense, so its only natural that prospecting migrants will look elsewhere as their destination.

Why would immigrants come to a country with nothing to offer? That simply wont happen. As long as we have something to offer, they will come and manage okay, but right now, theres no significant pull factors for anyone.

Affable

KINGVictor wrote: »

Are you suggesting that because the Irish are "genetically and culturally" similar to the US,we should be treated differently than other human beings .That would be totally stupid.

I wouldn't say the Europeans were(although they are more now) anything like the Americans culturally.

Sizzler

KINGVictor wrote: »

When The undocumented(illegal ) Irish in the US,Canada,Australia etc are given the exact treatment as the ones been proposed by you and when the strong able bodied men and women stop claiming the dole in the UK.

Unlike most members of the OECD,Ireland has very little moral justification to moan about immigrants.

LOB tbh. If in doubt use the aul Irish piling into America line :rolleyes: The fact is that when the Irish left in their droves (esp. USA) they didnt go to swell the welfare system nor was there one there to support them even if they did, they went to work. The sad indictment of immigration in Ireland is the people that came to work did and the ones that didnt were bankrolled by you and me, the taxpayer.

PaulieD

Julianna Jolly Thesaurus wrote: »

I feel that immigrants will come to Ireland as long as the country has something to offer to them. The reality that it takes two years working before social benefit can be obtained means that Stanislav or Ahmed wont look upon this country as a haven for free money. Currently, this country is on its last legs in an economic sense, so its only natural that prospecting migrants will look elsewhere as their destination.

Why would immigrants come to a country with nothing to offer? That simply wont happen. As long as we have something to offer, they will come and manage okay, but right now, theres no significant pull factors for anyone.

That is a myth. Just ask the 36,042 non nationals who applied for PPS numbers from the year starting to the end of May.

To many, Ireland is still an attractive place, even in a recession.