Immigration.

Affable · 04-06-2009 9:29pm

af_thefragile wrote: »

I started thread after i ended up having a little discussion with a couple of BNP supporters who were going on about how immigration has ruined britain. It has increased the crime rater and ruined the economy. They said many stupid racist things like correlation between how **** a country is and how many "non-whites" are in it,

??

Well not that I'd ever condone the BNP, there is an element of truth on that. Have you seen the book 'IQ and the wealth of nations'?.
Yes immigration does enliven a country and ideas from other places and an open mind towards them can be better than an insularity, and a country it can be stuck in cultural stagnancy without it, but also a certain degree of cultural stability and a population that is not too transient is healthy.
The arguments for the benefits to the economy are unconvincign and are put by leftists who are scared of the racists. Yes immigrants are willing to do the essential menial jobs more than 'original' westeners but besides that the positivity of their influence on the economy is questionable at best.

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 9:40pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I can think of quite a few peoples who might have something to say about that.
The rule being that “non-skilled” people are economically worthless?

Not worthless no, no human being is, they are classified as unskilled labour, as they are just that. Unskilled. They generally take up menial work.

Yes, I do. Based on the available evidence, I think it’s quite a reasonable conclusion. You don’t think that there are a large number of British people living in Ireland?

Yes of course I do, we are neighbours after all. I dont believe for one second there are more brits than poles in Ireland. Even the Minister Of Intergration admitted the CSO figures are way off. Truth is nobody has a clue how many are in the country at present.

The title of that article rids the publication of any credibility. Seriously – you think that’s a more reliable source than the CSO?

The Polish Embassy claimed there were 170,000 poles here. That was two years ago. Conor Lenihan claims there are 200,000. Truth is nobody has a clue.

I’ll say the same thing to you that I said to O’Morris above regarding PPS numbers.
Is that a ‘no’?

PPS numbers do remain active when somebody leaves the country. Although, this does not take into account immigrants dependants arriving in Ireland, children etc etc. Again nobody has any clue. Its pure "guestimation". Not good enough, how can the government plan ahead and run the country when they do not know how many people reside in it?

...

esharknz · 04-06-2009 9:42pm

PaulieD wrote: »

When the Irish emigrated they went to the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The people that lived in these places were for the most part all descended from the same group of people who originated from the same part of the world. A part of the World that includes Ireland The Irish, are genetically and culturally, very similar, almost identical to the people in the countries they emigrated to.

We are a sovereign nation and can act in our own interests.

I've been the victim of several anti-immigrant remarks and I'm a (of Irish descent) New Zealander. I have a post-graduate degree and am gainfully employed in an area on the green card list.

Why am I treated like such dirt? Why is it OK for an Irish person to migrate to MY country, yet seemingly such offense is taken if a New Zealander moves here?

esharknz · 04-06-2009 9:45pm

Sizzler wrote: »

LOB tbh. If in doubt use the aul Irish piling into America line :rolleyes: The fact is that when the Irish left in their droves (esp. USA) they didnt go to swell the welfare system nor was there one there to support them even if they did, they went to work. The sad indictment of immigration in Ireland is the people that came to work did and the ones that didnt were bankrolled by you and me, the taxpayer.

Yeah, it really annoys me when Irish rip off the kiwi taxpayer!!!

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 9:46pm

esharknz wrote: »

I've been the victim of several anti-immigrant remarks and I'm a (of Irish descent) New Zealander. I have a post-graduate degree and am gainfully employed in an area on the green card list.

Why am I treated like such dirt? Why is it OK for an Irish person to migrate to MY country, yet seemingly such offense is taken if a New Zealander moves here?

Sorry to hear that. Maybe you should ask the person abusing you? What did they say to you? Its not ok.

Affable · 04-06-2009 9:49pm

esharknz wrote: »

I've been the victim of several anti-immigrant remarks and I'm a (of Irish descent) New Zealander. I have a post-graduate degree and am gainfully employed in an area on the green card list.

Why am I treated like such dirt? Why is it OK for an Irish person to migrate to MY country, yet seemingly such offense is taken if a New Zealander moves here?

Maybe they feel threatened. Some Europeans are not as confident/brash as 'New World' people.

esharknz · 04-06-2009 9:51pm

Sorry to say, but it's been several people!
Ah well, the charm of a certain Irishman might keep me here.

Counsel · 04-06-2009 9:51pm

esharknz wrote: »

I've been the victim of several anti-immigrant remarks and I'm a (of Irish descent) New Zealander. I have a post-graduate degree and am gainfully employed in an area on the green card list.

Why am I treated like such dirt? Why is it OK for an Irish person to migrate to MY country, yet seemingly such offense is taken if a New Zealander moves here?

Same with me. I am Latvian... I am going to College here and now doing my Junior Certificate. My parents leave here for 10 years. Obviously we all foreign people would like to thank Irish that they are doing to us, but getting such abuse from them is quiet sad. If for example Irish go to USA or somewhere else I don't think they get such abuse. I am not trying to abuse anyone and not saying that everyone is like that but loads of Irish people are quiet sad about, with their racist and etc things. Obviously they don't how we feel.... and yes I quiet hate Polish (also some Latvians) who are coming here and just getting money for nothing. My parents are living here for 10 years and always worked, always! As for me, I had no choice to stay in Latvia or come here. If I knew that I will get such abuse, I surely should have stayed in Latvia. I am really upset with all that.

P.S There is quiet good number of lads who doesnt care if you are foreigner.

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 9:55pm

Counsel wrote: »

Same with me. I am Latvian... I am going to College here and now doing my Junior Certificate. My parents leave here for 10 years. Obviously we all foreign people would like to thank Irish that they are doing to us, but getting such abuse from them is quiet sad. If for example Irish go to USA or somewhere else I don't think they get such abuse. I am not trying to abuse anyone and not saying that everyone is like that but loads of Irish people are quiet sad about, with their racist and etc things. Obviously they don't how we feel.... and yes I quiet hate Polish (also some Latvians) who are coming here and just getting money for nothing. My parents are living here for 10 years and always worked, always! As for me, I had no choice to stay in Latvia or come here. If I knew that I will get such abuse, I surely should have stayed in Latvia. I am really upset with all that.

P.S There is quiet good number of lads who doesnt care if you are foreigner.

Sorry to hear you are getting abuse. There is no excuse for it, report it to your teachers as it is bullying. Good luck in your exams and enjoy the summer.:)

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 9:57pm

esharknz wrote: »

Sorry to say, but it's been several people!
Ah well, the charm of a certain Irishman might keep me here.

The government should feel the backlash stemming from their insane immigration policies(or lack of), not the immigrants. What do they say to you? Call you Kiwi? Is it in jest?

g5fd6ow0hseima · 04-06-2009 10:00pm

PaulieD wrote: »

That is a myth. Just ask the 36,042 non nationals who applied for PPS numbers from the year starting to the end of May.

To many, Ireland is still an attractive place, even in a recession.

of that 30,000 odd there's 7000 odd polish people. Of all of them, a great deal could have been fellas working on sites here for years getting cash in hand. One cannot say that all those are new arrivals. I certainly doubt even half are.

af_thefragile · 04-06-2009 10:03pm

Affable wrote: »

Well not that I'd ever condone the BNP, there is an element of truth on that. Have you seen the book 'IQ and the wealth of nations'?.
Yes immigration does enliven a country and ideas from other places and an open mind towards them can be better than an insularity, and a country it can be stuck in cultural stagnancy without it, but also a certain degree of cultural stability and a population that is not too transient is healthy.
The arguments for the benefits to the economy are unconvincign and are put by leftists who are scared of the racists. Yes immigrants are willing to do the essential menial jobs more than 'original' westeners but besides that the positivity of their influence on the economy is questionable at best.

What has that got to do with being white or asian or whatever?

The BNP like to think whites are more culturally and economically advanced as all of the 1st world is white and you won't find any 3rd world country with whites in em...

Which i say has nothing got to do with whites being better but is the consequence of colonialism and 19-20th century eugenics movements.
Which i can get into more detail into but this is not the thread for that.

Back to immigration.
Immigration is great for both the society and the economy in a properly functioning state. It brings in skilled workforce, it brings in foreign ideas and if you're into genetics, mixing of different genes is good for the species.

In a state edging towards socialism where the market is being condensed into state owned monopolies, there aren't enough jobs for the citizens of the country itself, which makes immigration a problem.

This wouldn't be a problem in a free market state cuz there would be enough jobs for everyone that we'ld need immigrants to come fill up the excess jobs.

But, our country is becoming more and more socialist everyday, so well, immigration job problem is only a symptom of the big problem which is reduction of jobs.

af_thefragile · 04-06-2009 10:06pm

PaulieD wrote: »

I get sick of hearing about Irish emigration in the past, being used to justify unlimited immigration to Ireland in the present. It is akin to the mainland European countries constantly getting hit with their imperialist past by the rest of the world.
When the Irish emigrated they went to the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The people that lived in these places were for the most part all descended from the same group of people who originated from the same part of the world. A part of the World that includes Ireland The Irish, are genetically and culturally, very similar, almost identical to the people in the countries they emigrated to.
Past Irish emigration should not be used in arguments for immigration. The liberal PC left are constantly bring this one up and it p****s me off.

We are a sovereign nation and can act in our own interests.

Aah, you were making good sense till you typed all of this...

I can see what you mean but do you still believe we need to live by these 19-20th century principles which proved to be so destructive?? Fend for your own race, screw the others...

I bet you wouldn't have a problem if next month Australia got bust and you suddenly had thousands of Australians moving into Ireland.

djpbarry · 04-06-2009 10:07pm

PaulieD wrote: »

To many, Ireland is still an attractive place, even in a recession.

How many of these people are EU Citizens?

PaulieD wrote: »

Not worthless no, no human being is, they are classified as unskilled labour, as they are just that. Unskilled. They generally take up menial work.

And they’re stuck performing this “menial work” forever and ever and ever?

PaulieD wrote: »

Yes of course I do, we are neighbours after all.

Great. So we’ve established that there are a large number of British people living in Ireland. So why no proposals to restrict the movement of British people?

PaulieD wrote: »

The Polish Embassy claimed there were 170,000 poles here. That was two years ago. Conor Lenihan claims there are 200,000.

And what were those two figures based on? Thin air I’m guessing.

PaulieD wrote: »

...how can the government plan ahead and run the country when they do not know how many people reside in it?

Well, there does exist a procedure for systematically acquiring and recording information about the members of a given population. There’s a word for it – begins with ‘C’ I think.

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 10:08pm

Julianna Jolly Thesaurus wrote: »

of that 30,000 odd there's 7000 odd polish people. Of all of them, a great deal could have been fellas working on sites here for years getting cash in hand. One cannot say that all those are new arrivals. I certainly doubt even half are.

Surely the first thing you would do before applying for work is registering and receiving a PPS number? You cannot have two.

Sizzler · 04-06-2009 10:09pm

esharknz wrote: »

Yeah, it really annoys me when Irish rip off the kiwi taxpayer!!!

Seriously do they? Can an Irish person land in Auckland and take handouts straight off?

esharknz · 04-06-2009 10:13pm

PaulieD wrote: »

The government should feel the backlash stemming from their insane immigration policies(or lack of), not the immigrants. What do they say to you? Call you Kiwi? Is it in jest?

No, I can guarantee it's not in jest. It's malicious. Ah well, I'm above complaining of immigrants in my country.

Insane immigration policies, I agree, they can't even produce an accurate document detailing how you go about getting a green card in this country.
Had to deal with three departments and got different conflicting answers from each one.

Dumbledore · 04-06-2009 10:13pm

markopantelic wrote: »

yeah if i was a citizen of th eu and moved here, had no hopes i'd be straight down to the south of spain, no problem lol

You fail to realise, that many of the immigrants here are either native English speakers or have studied it prior to arriving. Just turning up in Seville and not speaking the language, is not a reliable route to finding employment.
Spain also has notoriously high unemployment so it is not as ideal a destination as Ireland, despite the weather.

af_thefragile · 04-06-2009 10:14pm

PaulieD wrote: »

Surely the first thing you would do before applying for work is registering and receiving a PPS number? You cannot have two.

But how many of these actually have got jobs?
Its hard enough for skilled Irish to find how.
Why would these immigrants get jobs easily when they can barely speak proper english??
Also its not like they'ld be working for cheaper cuz there's minimum wage which all businesses need to abide to...

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 10:15pm

af_thefragile wrote: »

Aah, you were making good sense till you typed all of this...

I can see what you mean but do you still believe we need to live by these 19-20th century principles which proved to be so destructive?? Fend for your own race, screw the others...

I bet you wouldn't have a problem if next month Australia got bust and you suddenly had thousands of Australians moving into Ireland.

No my point is this, Irish emigration to New Foundland has no place in a debate on current Irish immigration policies.

Its history.

esharknz · 04-06-2009 10:18pm

Sizzler wrote: »

Seriously do they? Can an Irish person land in Auckland and take handouts straight off?

In the past, I believe so, as residents (immigration policy of the/prior to the 70s). These people unfortunately are still ripping off the tax payer, and it's not just ONE, it's several. A bit harder now these days.

while taking into account that I couldn't get the dole in this country (not that I would), I don't see why this is a problem.

I'm sick of seeing comments that we are all here to take the dole!

djpbarry · 04-06-2009 10:21pm

Affable wrote: »

Well not that I'd ever condone the BNP, there is an element of truth on that. Have you seen the book 'IQ and the wealth of nations'?.

I have indeed - it's a delightful piece of nonsense.

KINGVictor · 04-06-2009 10:22pm

Sizzler wrote: »

LOB tbh. If in doubt use the aul Irish piling into America line :rolleyes: The fact is that when the Irish left in their droves (esp. USA) they didnt go to swell the welfare system nor was there one there to support them even if they did, they went to work. The sad indictment of immigration in Ireland is the people that came to work did and the ones that didnt were bankrolled by you and me, the taxpayer.

Absolutely convenient to come a forum like this and make such claims...while I agree that the Irish have contributed immensely to their host countries(and I am proud of that) and BTW that is how a lot of immigrants have had positive impacts on Ireland

..A lot of Americans,Canadians ,Australians ,New-zealanders and British would disagree with you when you say we didnt go to those countries to swell their the welfare system or that a lot of us were nuisances that vomitted and pissed on walls....We were even sterio typed as drunks and never do wells.To be honest with you,I think a lot of Irish people use Immigration as an excuse to justify the current failures of the state...

Immigrants were not in control of the economy in the boom years and the construction industry debacle...neither are they responsible for the gross abuse of children as stated in the Ryan report...95% of crimes in this country are committed by "native Irish " let us face reality and look inwardly and find solutions to the problems we created rather than seek the easy way out.....as usual.

Taxipete29 · 04-06-2009 10:30pm

There are racists in every country in the world, why would Ireland be any different??. I have been abused racially in many countries around the world. Most of this was due to the fact these people mistook me for being English, but its no excuse.

I do not see any need to accept unskilled migrants into this country when we have 400k unemployed people already here. Its obviously wrong to say they cant contribute to society because of course they can but there is no logical argument for allowing it especially in the current climate.

Immigration is still new to Ireland and it will obivously take time for people to adjust. Irish people never considered themselves racist, but this was in a time when the only black people who lived here were Doctors, Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott.

I dont believe that Irish people are at heart racists. Alot of Irish people see immigrants sticking to their own, making unfair demands on our culture and trying to force us to change to fit in with their beliefs instead of the other way around. This breeds resentment and contempt. Its a natural reaction.
Our new multi-cultural society happened very quickly and we are such a small nation alot of people are still caught in the whirlwind of it all.

Irish people will adjust and I pray we never end up like our nearest neighbours in terms of racial problems. However it is only by educating people that you will get over these problems. What we dont know or understand scares us and thus breeds hatred. Educate both irish and immigrants alike and we will have a better society in the end.

Affable · 04-06-2009 10:31pm

af_thefragile wrote: »

What has that got to do with being white or asian or whatever?

The BNP like to think whites are more culturally and economically advanced as all of the 1st world is white and you won't find any 3rd world country with whites in em...

Which i say has nothing got to do with whites being better but is the consequence of colonialism and 19-20th century eugenics movements.
Which i can get into more detail into but this is not the thread for that.

Back to immigration.
Immigration is great for both the society and the economy in a properly functioning state. It brings in skilled workforce, it brings in foreign ideas and if you're into genetics, mixing of different genes is good for the species.

In a state edging towards socialism where the market is being condensed into state owned monopolies, there aren't enough jobs for the citizens of the country itself, which makes immigration a problem.

This wouldn't be a problem in a free market state cuz there would be enough jobs for everyone that we'ld need immigrants to come fill up the excess jobs.

But, our country is becoming more and more socialist everyday, so well, immigration job problem is only a symptom of the big problem which is reduction of jobs.

Mixing of different genes is good for the species up to a point(Africa has more genetic diversity than anywhere on earth), but not to a point when all so called 'caucasian' genes in a minority are wiped out. I wouldn't really agree that it's to do with colonialism. After all although those relationships were based on self-interest of the colonizing countries, there was noble intent of a mutually beneficial strategy, ie they would get more economic benefits and stabilise more with European influence, and to be absolutely frank, they did. They've gotten worse off since they became independent.

It's got nothing to do with eugenicists because they never acted upon their beliefs and never had any power.

PaulieD · 04-06-2009 10:34pm

djpbarry wrote: »

How many of these people are EU Citizens?

You can count as well as me. Half are eastern europeans. Time to introduce work permits.

And they’re stuck performing this “menial work” forever and ever and ever?

Nope, they can go into education and find their potential, or get really lucky, get on in a job they are good at and excel.

Great. So we’ve established that there are a large number of British people living in Ireland. So why no proposals to restrict the movement of British people?

Common Travel Area. Its a reciprocal agreement. Unlike eastern european immigration, which is a shift of labour from east to west.

And what were those two figures based on? Thin air I’m guessing.
Well, there does exist a procedure for systematically acquiring and recording information about the members of a given population. There’s a word for it – begins with ‘C’ I think.

The CSO has been largely discredited. Seriously man, do you think there are only 63,000 Polish in the country? More Chinese than Germans. Ive no clue how many are in the country but it is agreed by many government ministers, agencies, and bodies that its at least three rimes that number.

.......

Affable · 04-06-2009 10:40pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I have indeed - it's a delightful piece of nonsense.

Well I see the point they are making, but IQ tests have been designed to be independent of foraml education-as for IQ is just a measure of middle classness well maybe there is cause and effect in the direction of class-formal education-IQ, but you must admit it runs in the reverse direction too to some extent, it's a web of interdependence.

And how else do you explain the quite clear divide-

West>/=Far East>India>Africa

The further removed the genetic stock of the population from Africa, the more successful that country.

It even existed between southern and northern Europe.

If the IQ tests are set to western middle class cultural norms, why does China have economic success and high average IQ when they are culturally and educationally completely different to us, and Africa doesn't? South America has western style education but look at them on the map. Why is north Africa doing better than Mid? Even in South America you can see the trend betwen Argentina and further north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IQ_by_Country.png

The people sent out to Australia were uneducated convicts but look how successful that is and the IQ levels.

KINGVictor · 04-06-2009 11:03pm

Taxipete29 wrote: »

There are racists in every country in the world, why would Ireland be any different??. I have been abused racially in many countries around the world. Most of this was due to the fact these people mistook me for being English, but its no excuse.

I do not see any need to accept unskilled migrants into this country when we have 400k unemployed people already here. Its obviously wrong to say they cant contribute to society because of course they can but there is no logical argument for allowing it especially in the current climate.

Immigration is still new to Ireland and it will obivously take time for people to adjust. Irish people never considered themselves racist, but this was in a time when the only black people who lived here were Doctors, Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott.

I dont believe that Irish people are at heart racists. Alot of Irish people see immigrants sticking to their own, making unfair demands on our culture and trying to force us to change to fit in with their beliefs instead of the other way around. This breeds resentment and contempt. Its a natural reaction.
Our new multi-cultural society happened very quickly and we are such a small nation alot of people are still caught in the whirlwind of it all.

Irish people will adjust and I pray we never end up like our nearest neighbours in terms of racial problems. However it is only by educating people that you will get over these problems. What we dont know or understand scares us and thus breeds hatred. Educate both irish and immigrants alike and we will have a better society in the end.

I do not intend to quote you out of context,but it is false to say Ireland is new to immigration...to non caucasians ..yes..but we have historically had italians,germans immigrate to Ireland and if you consider Paul McGrath an Immigrant or Black despite the fact his mother was Irish...well that explains a lot.

Let us assume that Immigration "is new to the Irish"...what are you going to say to the world...give us 60 years to get used to immigration and maybe perharps we would start treating them with some decency and fairness...this is 2009...no one has patience for such daft excuses.Immigration is new to Ireland supposedly but we have been Immigrants ourselves to a lot of countries so it is not entirely foreign to us ....we can adequately utilize our experiences to determine the best way to deal with immigration....such as tolerance,understanding,wisdom,empathy and fairness.

johnathan woss · 04-06-2009 11:07pm

The pink elephant in the room here is that the world is over-populated.
Ireland is currently not over-populated (within reason) and I would prefer it to stay that way.

One question that mass immigration proponents never give a straight answer to is this : How many immigrants and asylum seekers would you ideally let in ?

Affable · 04-06-2009 11:17pm

johnathan woss wrote: »

The pink elephant in the room here is that the world is over-populated.
Ireland is currently not over-populated (within reason) and I would prefer it to stay that way.

One question that mass immigration proponents never give a straight answer to is this : How many immigrants and asylum seekers would you ideally let in ?

England is packed and governments keep wanting to build more homes all udner the moniler of 'development'-gotta stop somewhere. Having space is precious. Though, how would you feel if it gave you bigger more exciting cities?

Immigration.

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