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Immigration.
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af_thefragile wrote: »Clean water, yes, there is an infinite supply.
Potassium and phosphorous are recycled. Where do you think they go? Just disappear into the thin air when you add them to the soil?
Scientific advances have produced many highly efficient ways of producing crops which can feed everyone on the planet. Only problem, it takes time and money. And as i mentioned, no one wants to spend the money.
Yup, earth is a finite system. Nothing usually leaves it, nothing usually adds to it. Hence everything in the planet is recycled material.
People grow crops, they eat crops, they **** out the crops, the poo acts as a fertilizer to grow crops again and the cycle continues. As long as the population is growing, more and more people are dying too. When they die, their body assimilates with the ground and the cycle continues. Its a closed system. It only depends on how we make use of it.
No. Its not the population that is destroying bio-diversity, its deforestation.
Now i can go on forever about deforestation. But to just give a short idea. Deforestation is the cause of all of earth's ecological problems.
Here's how things work.
Population grows. People use more fuel and so more CO2 in the air.
Now plants use CO2 as fuel/food for photosynthesis. As the CO2 in the air grows, the growth rate of plants grows too, reducing back the CO2 levels, maintaining a balance in the amount of CO2 in the air. Here no global warming or anything. Earth just heats up and cools in periodic cycles due to the wobble in the earths rotation.
Now here's what we're doing.
We want wood cuz we're too lazy to build synthetic materials and recycle what we already have. We also want more land cuz we want more cattle to graze. Rain forest countries (like Brazil) are mostly in debt, hence easier to exploit.
Now when you cut down the rainforest, you're chopping down Earth's lungs and destroying millions of animal's homes destroying earth's biodiversity as you like to call it. There aren't enough trees anymore to suck back in all the CO2 we're releasing in the air cuz although the trees are growing faster because of the excess CO2, we're chopping them down at a faster than they can act to reduce to the CO2 levels. Result, CO2 levels keep rising as there are less and less plants around. Global warming increases in a vicious cycle.
More CO2 = More heat = more evaporation from the seas = more water vapour in the air = further more heat = melting of ice caps = more water to absorb more heat and evaporate and less ice to reflect back solar radiation = further more heat... and the cycle continues.
All of this is happening because we're cutting down the trees. But you see, the government isn't gonna tell you that.
Cuz there's no money to be made there. You can't tax wood.
Its much easier to pick of fuels. Tax fossil fuels, bringing new "environmental taxes". Its all a big scheme for government to leech more money off the people and it does nothing to fight global warming.
This is what the government does. It always fights the symptoms but never targets the main cause of the problem.
Target immigration but do nothing bout the reduction in jobs. Target fossil fuels but do nothing about the cutting down of trees.
Im not trying to be a back seat mod, but I fail to see how any of this has anything to do with the immigration issue.0 -
when i say values i mean 'western' values not going down to the pub and getting pissed or playing the fiddle. immigrants can add a new dimension to irish life and i fully embrace it. no irish(well certainly not my friends in school) want to live in a drab dull conservative ireland which it appeared back in the day. now maby my opinion is different because i have obvious immigrant connections, both my grandparents were latvian jews so i don't have this illusion of 'native irish' that some seem to have.
we don't have a large muslim population here, the ones i know are liberal and open-minded, most of our immigration is from other european countries(poland and the uk the highest) which have the same 'values'. actually i wonder what our non-eu immigration rate is anyway?
btw i'm not saying a proper immigration policy that benefits everyone should not be drawn up but i disagree very much with the points based system.0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »Im not trying to be a back seat mod, but I fail to see how any of this has anything to do with the immigration issue.
Yer man wanted to know how the world could sustain so many people...
Yup, agree its got nothing to do with immigration.
Maybe he could start another thread to discuss that.0 -
af_thefragile wrote: »Clean water, yes, there is an infinite supply.
Potassium and phosphorous are recycled. Where do you think they go? Just disappear into the thin air when you add them to the soil?
Scientific advances have produced many highly efficient ways of producing crops which can feed everyone on the planet. Only problem, it takes time and money. And as i mentioned, no one wants to spend the money.
If there was a smaller population then yes we could potentially live sustainably and recycle all we needed.
But how many people that you know use their own urine and faeces as fertiliser?
The FACT is that in order to feed 7 billion people nitrogen fertiliser has to be mass produced from a finite fossil fuel, phosphorous has to be mined from finite sources, the crops have to be sprayed with vast amounts of pesticides, (mostly made from a finite fossil fuel .... ooops) which also help destroy biodiversity, and water has to be diverted from FINITE aquifers for irrigation.af_thefragile wrote: »Yup, earth is a finite system. Nothing usually leaves it, nothing usually adds to it. Hence everything in the planet is recycled material.
People grow crops, they eat crops, they **** out the crops, the poo acts as a fertilizer to grow crops again and the cycle continues. As long as the population is growing, more and more people are dying too. When they die, their body assimilates with the ground and the cycle continues. Its a closed system. It only depends on how we make use of it.
Have you ever heard of entropy ?
Fossil fuels are concentrated energy and when they are used they are gone .... they don't "recycle", at least not for millions for years.
The important minerals are usually found in concentrated areas in the earth's crust .... when they are mined and spread out across the earth it is impossible to simply recycle them and use them at the same scale because that would require so much energy.af_thefragile wrote: »No. Its not the population that is destroying bio-diversity, its deforestation.
Why are we deforesting the world so rapidly ?
Becasue 7 billion people want to use the wood as a resource and because we need the land for food and now biomass energy.
Anyway there are far more human causes of biodiversity destruction than just deforestification ..... the depletion of fish stocks, the widespread chemical pollution of rivers, land,and air, global warming, the widespread use of very powerful pesticides, etc etc etc0 -
By what definition is the planet overpopulated (and Ireland underpopulated)?johnathan woss wrote: »I haven't even mentioned the fact that human over-population is destroying the biodiversity of the planet...0 -
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Ireland could sustain a relatively high population without fossil fuel inputs IMO.
There is NO WAY the earth can sustain anything close to 7 billion people without fossil fuels.0 -
markopantelic wrote: »when i say values i mean 'western' values not going down to the pub and getting pissed or playing the fiddle. immigrants can add a new dimension to irish life and i fully embrace it. no irish(well certainly not my friends in school) want to live in a drab dull conservative ireland which it appeared back in the day. now maby my opinion is different because i have obvious immigrant connections, both my grandparents were latvian jews so i don't have this illusion of 'native irish' that some seem to have.
we don't have a large muslim population here, the ones i know are liberal and open-minded, most of our immigration is from other european countries(poland and the uk the highest) which have the same 'values'. actually i wonder what our non-eu immigration rate is anyway?
It all comes down to intergration. We are a small country and we dont have room for large groups in society who wish to distance themselves from everyone else. i am speaking mainly about African and Asian immigrants here.0 -
africans don't want to integrate? are you serious? there might be a case for the chinese community but i 100% disagree with you in relation to black people in ireland(from my experience)
they(in any sort of numbers) have been here what? 15-20 years tops, give them time please, even the chinese community, the ones who stay here eventually are the ones who like it, why would they distance themselves from the rest of population? remember ireland received immigration at a different time in a much more globalised world, many will eventually leave anyway as its not like we are like for example sweden when it comes to immigration although some seem to believe we have an open doors policy.
would you consider the irish in boston and london to have distanced themselves from rest of population?0 -
Large groups of African and Asian immigrants don't integrate? Well, as generalisations go, that's about as broad as they come.Taxipete29 wrote: »We are a small country and we dont have room for large groups in society who wish to distance themselves from everyone else. i am speaking mainly about African and Asian immigrants here.0 -
johnathan woss wrote: »If there was a smaller population then yes we could potentially live sustainably and recycle all we needed.
But how many people that you know use their own urine and faeces as fertiliser?
The FACT is that in order to feed 7 billion people nitrogen fertiliser has to be mass produced from a finite fossil fuel, phosphorous has to be mined from finite sources, the crops have to be sprayed with vast amounts of pesticides, (mostly made from a finite fossil fuel .... ooops) which also help destroy biodiversity, and water has to be diverted from FINITE aquifers for irrigation.
All that aside...
You still haven't answered me as to what solution you've got in mind for this alleged overpopulation of yours??
I really don't like it when someone comes to debate about the negatives of one subject without making any effort to come up with some sort of alternative solution to the problem.
As i mentioned from where I can see there's only two things you can do about growing population.
You can either reduce it or adjust to it.
I'ld like to see if you've got any third option... You've obviously said we can't adjust to it. So what have you got in mind about for reducing it?0 -
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also its outrageously false, i've had a few runs it with a few black peeple haha nothing serious though but without a doubt i would say they are the most likely of immigrants to be assimilated imo, i know many black people, next door neighbour is from senegal, sound chap, with an irish girl and he keeps the show on the road. from my experience most black people will stay in ireland, this means that they have a want to assimilate if your from warsaw and have already outlined when you plan on leaving i think your less likely to mix, although having said that i know a few sound polish lads.0
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markopantelic wrote: »africans don't want to integrate? are you serious? there might be a case for the chinese community but i 100% disagree with you in relation to black people in ireland(from my experience)
they have been here what? 15-20 years tops, give them time please, even the chinese community, the ones who stay here eventually are the ones who like it, why would they distance themselves from the rest of population?
would you consider the irish in boston and new york to have distanced themselves from rest of population?
I am of course only speaking from my own experience and am willing to allow time to hopefully prove me wrong. We cannot afford to make the mistakes as the UK which was to allow immigrant communities to create their own ghettos which results in massive racial tension.
TBH i dont know enough about the irish in USA to comment.0 -
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markopantelic wrote: »also its outrageously false, i've had a few runs it with a few black peeple haha nothing serious though but without a doubt i would say they are the most likely of immigrants to be assimilated imo, i know many black people, next door neighbour is from senegal, sound chap, with an irish girl and he keeps the show on the road. from my experience most black people will stay in ireland, this means that they have a want to assimilate if your from warsaw and have already outlined when you plan on leaving i think your less likely to mix, although having said that i know a few sound polish lads.
Black people will stay here as they have very little choice in where they go.
It may surprise you but I have quite a few black friends and alot of what I am saying here comes from them.0 -
i didn't think you're racist or xeneophobe or anything???0
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markopantelic wrote: »i didn't think you're racist or xeneophobe or anything???
I didnt think you did0 -
I was listening to Matt Cooper during the week and he had a few candidates in for Dublin Central. He then had some guy on the phone from The Immigration Control Party, bit of a goon in fairness and not the most articulate person to even get within an a$$ses roar of any sort of sensible discussion on immigration. I do believe him though on one count (which was underpinned on what we saw on Prime Time a few weeks ago), he said that immigration was a *real* issue on the doorsteps when he went canvassing. Cue all the other candidates go to the opposite end of the scale to state that "not one" person had raised the issue when they called and the economy benefited hugely from immigration etc etc. A few things here, first off, highly unlikely that people from the same area are telling people one set of canvassers one thing and when the next crew call, they say nothing? The candidates accentuated the positives of immigration but they dismiss the obvious darker side of the taxpayer bankrolling mass immigration, well at least aestethically in some minorities.
The most startling thing for me in Irish politics over the last 10 years (when mass immigration / asylum claims etc) kicked off that not once has any political party raised / challenged or discussed the issue in the dail, its almost a taboo subject and Ireland does not appear to have any real policy on the subject which lends itself to some of the public distain we are seeing today.0 -
I was listening to Matt Cooper during the week and he had a few candidates in for Dublin Central. He then had some guy on the phone from The Immigration Control Party, bit of a goon in fairness and not the most articulate person to even get within an a$$ses roar of any sort of sensible discussion on immigration. I do believe him though on one count (which was underpinned on what we saw on Prime Time a few weeks ago), he said that immigration was a *real* issue on the doorsteps when he went canvassing. Cue all the other candidates go to the opposite end of the scale to state that "not one" person had raised the issue when they called and the economy benefited hugely from immigration etc etc. A few things here, first off, highly unlikely that people from the same area are telling people one set of canvassers one thing and when the next crew call, they say nothing? The candidates accentuated the positives of immigration but they dismiss the obvious darker side of the taxpayer bankrolling mass immigration, well at least aestethically in some minorities.
The most startling thing for me in Irish politics over the last 10 years (when mass immigration / asylum claims etc) kicked off that not once has any political party raised / challenged or discussed the issue in the dail, its almost a taboo subject and Ireland does not appear to have any real policy on the subject which lends itself to some of the public distain we are seeing today.
The problem for politicians is that if they follow the line that alot of people would have them follow. 1, it would probably contravene alot of international law and treaties we have signed up to. 2, Would not exactly make them look good on the international stage.
If they look too favourable on immigration they risk alienating alot of their voters.
In short its a poison pill and they take the ostrich approach.0 -
The most startling thing for me in Irish politics over the last 10 years (when mass immigration / asylum claims etc) kicked off that not once has any political party raised / challenged or discussed the issue in the dail, its almost a taboo subject and Ireland does not appear to have any real policy on the subject which lends itself to some of the public distain we are seeing today.
Whatever about how big an issue it is in reality (monetary terms I suppose), it does seem to be a perceived issue for a lot of people. But you're right, it's very much a taboo subject - people are afraid to bring it up because they don't want to be branded racist.
I think that's unfortunate for a few reasons, it leads to the fringe parties taking these issues as their own, and getting votes as a result (such as the BNP in England), regardless of how extreme their opinions are. And that's a real shame, and in my opinion inflates support for these parties by a fair amount, doesn't help with integration at all.
Personally I don't think immigrants / asylum seekers are costing the country that much at all - but I'd like to see bogus claims clamped down on severely (eg the Izevbekhai case) and the money used towards integrating and streamlining the process for genuine applicants.0 -
markopantelic wrote: »... next door neighbour is from senegal, sound chap... i know a few sound polish lads.
That's where you are getting it wrong: you are regarding immigrants as individuals, some of whom might be good and some of whom might be bad. You need to lump them all into one category, have as little as possible to do with them, and than campaign to have them all sent home.0 -
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af_thefragile wrote: »All that aside...
You still haven't answered me as to what solution you've got in mind for this alleged overpopulation of yours??
I really don't like it when someone comes to debate about the negatives of one subject without making any effort to come up with some sort of alternative solution to the problem.
As i mentioned from where I can see there's only two things you can do about growing population.
You can either reduce it or adjust to it.
I'ld like to see if you've got any third option... You've obviously said we can't adjust to it. So what have you got in mind about for reducing it?
The first thing I would do is make sure that we keep Ireland's population at a stable level, and not allow it to grow too large through immigration.
I would also stop incentivising people to have too many children, by stopping all child benefits given to a woman for her third child and any child thereafter.
Once people were used to that I'd reduce the child benefit for a woman's second child.
By the way there's three things that can happen
You can reduce the population
You can adjust to it [not possible at the current level]
You can hit a brick wall and let nature take it's course. (Do you know what happens to yeast in a petri dish ?)
Which do you think is the best option ?0 -
Wait, so you're saying Ireland is overpopulated?johnathan woss wrote: »The first thing I would do is make sure that we keep Ireland's population at a stable level, and not allow it to grow too large through immigration.
I would also stop incentivising people to have too many children, by stopping all child benefits given to a woman for her third child and any child thereafter.
Once people were used to that I'd reduce the child benefit for a woman's second child.
By the way there's three things that can happen
You can reduce the population
You can adjust to it [not possible at the current level]
You can hit a brick wall and let nature take it's course. (Do you know what happens to yeast in a petri dish ?)
Which do you think is the best option ?
Do you realise that cutting immigration in Ireland is gonna make no difference to the population of the world.
And i gave you the brilliant example of Monaco where over 16,000 people are living in every square kilometer of the city. Ireland is 59 people per square kilometer.
For to give you an idea about how "overpopulated" Ireland is.
Second. Nature is not gonna allow us go to just hit a brick wall. Not right now atleast. Cuz population growth is not linear. The human population is probably gonna reach a plateau at around 10billion.
Nature is about adjusting. The country who can adjust will thrive. The country who can't will perish.
If you can't adjust your country to the population growth, you'll be facing a major problem.
Take Dublin for example with its population of little over 1million. If you now can't adjust Dublin to deal with its growing population, you do have a problem. Now there are two things you can do.
You can either kick people out of Dublin to maintain its population. Or You can change the city to make it adjust to the growing population.
Now if you wanna kick people out of Dublin, lets see what the implementation of that could be:
Dublin would reduce back to being a small city. Its population will fall and so will its GDP. And you can forget about economic growth in the city.
Now if you change the city to adjust all these people, lets see what can happen:
Dublin would become more dense with a change skyline. More high rise buildings to support more people. A more efficient transport network developed. More services and more industries. All to cope with the population rise and Dublin's GDP will rocket up bringing in major economic growth to the city.
SO you can take your pick.
Small rural ethnic Dublin.
or
Large metropolis multicultural Dublin.
Oh and i say you should watch this before you jump to reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZmXwOgNq7c
and this one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w
Its good stuff...0 -
Immigrant communities create their own ghettos? You sure about that? How exactly does that work? Could you give an example of one of these ghettos?Taxipete29 wrote: »We cannot afford to make the mistakes as the UK which was to allow immigrant communities to create their own ghettos which results in massive racial tension.
Well, that’s the key issue, isn’t it? There’s an awful lot said about “integration” without anyone actually defining what it means.Taxipete29 wrote: »So you think that in general they do intergrate themselves fully?? What do define as intergrating??
I would estimate that about half the people in the building where I live are non-Irish and most are perfectly polite people and respectable neighbours. Most of the people I work with are non-Irish and, again, I get on well with pretty much all of them. My wife is non-Irish and I (usually) get on pretty well with her too. So, from my perspective, I don’t see a big problem with “integration”. But again, it all depends on how one defines what is a pretty subjective concept.0 -
Depends on what questions are asked, doesn’t it? I mean, if a canvasser calls to someone’s door and asks “what are the main issues of concern to you?”, it’s quite likely that immigration will not be mentioned. However, if the (ICP) canvasser asks “do you think immigration is an issue in modern Ireland?”, then it’s quite likely that the response will be ‘yes’. So you’ve gone from a situation where immigration is off the agenda to a situation where it is the agenda.... highly unlikely that people from the same area are telling people one set of canvassers one thing and when the next crew call, they say nothing?
The subject of immigration comes up regularly in Dáil debates; how else would the recent changes to work permit entitlements have been made?The most startling thing for me in Irish politics over the last 10 years (when mass immigration / asylum claims etc) kicked off that not once has any political party raised / challenged or discussed the issue in the dail, its almost a taboo subject...0 -
Ah, purity of the race.I get sick of hearing about Irish emigration in the past, being used to justify unlimited immigration to Ireland in the present. It is akin to the mainland European countries constantly getting hit with their imperialist past by the rest of the world.
When the Irish emigrated they went to the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The people that lived in these places were for the most part all descended from the same group of people who originated from the same part of the world. A part of the World that includes Ireland The Irish, are genetically and culturally, very similar, almost identical to the people in the countries they emigrated to.
Past Irish emigration should not be used in arguments for immigration. The liberal PC left are constantly bring this one up and it p****s me off.
We are a sovereign nation and can act in our own interests.0 -
af_thefragile wrote: »Wait, so you're saying Ireland is overpopulated?
Do you realise that cutting immigration in Ireland is gonna make no difference to the population of the world.
And i gave you the brilliant example of Monaco where over 16,000 people are living in every square kilometer of the city. Ireland is 59 people per square kilometer.
For to give you an idea about how "overpopulated" Ireland is.
I'm not sure what Monaco is a brilliant example of ?
If you were to isolate Monaco and not let any food or energy imports into it then those 16000 people per square kilometre would be cannibalising each other within a few weeks.af_thefragile wrote: »Second. Nature is not gonna allow us go to just hit a brick wall. Not right now atleast. Cuz population growth is not linear. The human population is probably gonna reach a plateau at around 10billion.
Nature is about adjusting. The country who can adjust will thrive. The country who can't will perish.
Why is nature going to stop us?
What does yeast do in a petri dish ?af_thefragile wrote: »If you can't adjust your country to the population growth, you'll be facing a major problem.
Take Dublin for example with its population of little over 1million. If you now can't adjust Dublin to deal with its growing population, you do have a problem. Now there are two things you can do.
You can either kick people out of Dublin to maintain its population. Or You can change the city to make it adjust to the growing population.
Now if you wanna kick people out of Dublin, lets see what the implementation of that could be:
Dublin would reduce back to being a small city. Its population will fall and so will its GDP. And you can forget about economic growth in the city.
Now if you change the city to adjust all these people, lets see what can happen:
Dublin would become more dense with a change skyline. More high rise buildings to support more people. A more efficient transport network developed. More services and more industries. All to cope with the population rise and Dublin's GDP will rocket up bringing in major economic growth to the city.
SO you can take your pick.
Small rural ethnic Dublin.
or
Large metropolis multicultural Dublin.
Oh and i say you should watch this before you jump to reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZmXwOgNq7c
and this one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w
Its good stuff...
Could you make your point about Dublin clearer as i don't see how it fits into what I'm saying .... i.e. the world cannot support 7 billion people for much longer, let alone 10 billion.
There are some technological advances going on and I'm interested in them but technology WILL NOT solve the problem of feeding 7 billion people when we run out of oil, gas, water and phosphorous.
Edit : by "run out" I mean we will have less available year on year0 -
johnathan woss wrote: »Unfortunately back here on planet earth we have finite supplies.
If you're talking the birds and the bees and the nitrogen and water cycles and that nearby nuclear furance then it's all limitless and free until the sun goes out.0 -
Immigrant communities create their own ghettos? You sure about that? How exactly does that work? Could you give an example of one of these ghettos?
Immigrants typically settle in areas with people of their own ethnic and cultural background. In the USA alot of this settlement was forced but this is not the case in the UK. The term Ghetto while generally a slang term refers to any area which is mainly populated by a minority group.
Brixton is probably one of the best known examples of such an area and has been the scene of many high profile racial incidents over the years including several riots.
Allowing an over concentration of minority groups to settle in areas will ineveitably lead to racial tension and conflict. These are facts which can be seen globally.
You seem to be under the illusion I have an issue with immigrants which I dont. What I do have an issue with is parts of the city I was born, grew up in and live in becoming no go areas for ANY members of our society.
You do realise that racial tension can exist between minority groups and not all racist incidents are between Blacks and Whites?????
While Ireland is obviously not at this stage yet, there are warning signs out there for anyone looking for them. Our increased economic problems will only serve to heighten these issues. These problems can be solved but only in the early stages, which is where we are now. Left unchecked we will experience the same problems our neighbours in the UK have.0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »It all comes down to intergration. We are a small country and we dont have room for large groups in society who wish to distance themselves from everyone else. i am speaking mainly about African and Asian immigrants here.
This convenient generalism aside from being wholly incorrect is just insulting. How the f**k is anyone to "integrate" with people who subscribe to the myth that immigrants create their own ghettos? :rolleyes:
And then you come out with the "some of my best friends are black" parp?? lol
Disgraceful and embarrassing.0 -
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Well, that’s the key issue, isn’t it? There’s an awful lot said about “integration” without anyone actually defining what it means.
I would estimate that about half the people in the building where I live are non-Irish and most are perfectly polite people and respectable neighbours. Most of the people I work with are non-Irish and, again, I get on well with pretty much all of them. My wife is non-Irish and I (usually) get on pretty well with her too. So, from my perspective, I don’t see a big problem with “integration”. But again, it all depends on how one defines what is a pretty subjective concept.
Just because you dont see a problem doesnt mean it doesnt exist.0
This discussion has been closed.
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