Back to Work Plan

Niall Keane

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jobless-to-keep-dole-in-new-backtowork-plan-1650779.html

What do people think of this? Another Kneejerk political reaction?

Personally I cannot see it not being abused, leaving more people “unofficially” on the dole costing us more and reducing the amount of possible jobs out there. But official unemployment figures would go down so the government would look good.

E.g. Company A needs say an AutoCAD draftsman, do they hire someone for €30K a year, or get someone for free for 6 months, then after 3 months do so again, and so on, so although a “spike” in workload every 6 months would allow them to offer a position to someone on the dole, similar drop offs in demand every alternate 6 months would allow them to discontinue employment of such persons. So in effect they get a permanent placement of a low cost public employee to do monkey work, (real skill and career advancement would never take place, monkey work is always required) and neither would they have to actually hire someone and pay a wage?

If one company does this, it will allow them to cut costs and therefore fees, and so force other companies to follow suit. Legitimate excuses could be found to let older more experienced staff go and replace them with such employees. This would of course make Ireland “more competitive”.

Also no one would be employed straight out of college; all would have to go through the 3-6 month “unemployment qualification”.

Isn’t this why France was “shut down” when their government made a similar suggestion? I can understand the small business owners advocating this, after all their concern is in making a profit, but I would have to wonder at the naivety regarding business savvy of a general member of the public not to foresee the consequences of this?

P. Breathnach

As described by John Walshe, it looks like a recipe for disaster. Such a scheme could be easily abused.

Then think of this situation, which would not even involve abuse of the scheme.

I recently invited builders to quote for a renovation job, and selected one. The contractor I engaged employs three full-time people, and uses sub-contractors, some of whom also have employees. In pricing the job, labour costs had to be a key component (my guess is that materials and consumables amount to about half the costs of fulfilling the contract).

Construction is an area where lots of skilled people are on the dole. How might quotes for my job have shaped up if this scheme was in operation? Could a contractor have based his price on subsidised labour and beaten out contractors who have been managing to hold on to their staff?

drunkmonkey

Something needs to be done, I know it's cruel but as someone who's always worked for a living since 16 years of age I'd like to see the dole decemated, I'm talking give them no more than €70pw. (now suddenly a lot of people on the dole have an incentive to work)
Drop the minimum wage or make it scalable, i.e If your under 21 there is no minimum wage, you take what your offered and are happy with the experience..

as for the artice, i'm some way in favour of the plan, just don't see how they'll implement it...

P. Breathnach

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Something needs to be done, I know it's cruel but as someone who's always worked for a living since 16 years of age I'd like to see the dole decemated, I'm talking give them no more than €70pw. (now suddenly a lot of people on the dole have an incentive to work)...

There is little point in giving people an incentive to work if there are no jobs for them.

Hunger is an incentive to eat, but hunger does not put food on the table.

Niall Keane

Could a contractor have based his price on subsidised labour and beaten out contractors who have been managing to hold on to their staff? – P.Breathnach

v. Good point, exactly what would happen.

Something needs to be done, I know it's cruel but as someone who's always worked for a living since 16 years of age I'd like to see the dole decimated - drunkmonkey

My point is that the dole wouldn’t be actually reduced, just called a back to work scheme, it would cost just as much or perhaps more if incentivised, and in any case less people would be properly employed so less tax would be received by the state to pay for this, making us borrow more.

If you’re under 21 there is no minimum wage, you take what you’re offered and are happy with the experience.. - drunkmonkey

So I guess in low paid work once you turn 21 you’re unemployable? That would indeed be a joyful experience!

But back to the topic which is related to your 21 year old comment I guess, do you think a sense of civic duty would keep business owners focused on people not profit. Maybe they’ll risk being uncompetitive and business failure and their own family’s futures to play fair and “keep on” the no longer subsidized staff?

drunkmonkey

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is little point in giving people an incentive to work if there are no jobs for them.

Hunger is an incentive to eat, but hunger does not put food on the table.

There are loads of jobs that need to be done, whether employers are willing to pay over the odds for tasks your average donkey could do is another question, If I could get 3 lads for €200pw (same as dole) i'd employ them in the morning.

Dravokivich

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There are loads of jobs that need to be done, whether employers are willing to pay over the odds for tasks your average donkey could do is another question, If I could get 3 lads for €200pw (same as dole) i'd employ them in the morning.

€200 per week... that's only €800 ish a month... that's not a fair and sustainable wage.

- Drav

drunkmonkey

Dravokivich wrote: »

€200 per week... that's only €800 ish a month... that's not a fair and sustainable wage.

- Drav

18 years of age with no qualifications, I think it's resonable.
30 years of age with 12 years experience then it wouldn't be fair.

I just think some people aren't worth minimum wage starting off, it makes it to expensive to employ them when you take into account the amount of effort an employer has to put in...especially with school leavers...the minimum wage shouldn't cover everybody just those with experience or qualifications.

P. Breathnach

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There are loads of jobs that need to be done, whether employers are willing to pay over the odds for tasks your average donkey could do is another question, If I could get 3 lads for €200pw (same as dole) i'd employ them in the morning.

I suppose that you would also regard them as donkeys. You would be paying them enough for a good feed of hay with a few carrots for dessert.

I have some very odd beliefs. One of them is that somebody who does a week's work should be paid enough to manage at least a modestly comfortable life -- things like food, heat, and shelter, a pair of shoes now and again, maybe even a beer once in a while.

drunkmonkey

Pair of new shoes, €40pw
5 pints of Guinness €20pw
Rent €40pw
Food €50 pw
Transport €30pw
Bits & Bobs €20pw

Work saturday, get an extra €60pw

it's dooable, especially for most under 21's living at home...

€200 is livable on in most countries, we need to bring our cost base down, i.e rent, booze, food & clothes....essentials

The dole is way to generous, in all fairness who in there right mind would go work in this weather for Minimum wage, more like draw the dole, do a nixer or 2 and hope you don't get caught...

I'm not talking about qualified professionals when referring to the minimum wage.

Sleepy

Where in this country can you rent a room for €40 a week?

omahaid

Sleepy wrote: »

Where in this country can you rent a room for €40 a week?

http://www.daft.ie/3514018

Single room €190 a month

Niall Keane

Maths is your strong point then, or are you saying that you wont last a full month?

Spudmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Pair of new shoes, €40pw

Should it be a case of if you want something you should save for it? Years ago if you wanted a new pair of shoes you might have to save for a month for them. Is it a case that things are too readily available??

Should we get to the stage where what we earn covers our basic needs and not anymore unless you really want it and can save for it!