Marks & Spencers renews bid for Waterford

Sully

Ill get the full article later, but its in today's News & Star. M&S are planning on opening two new units in Waterford - one in the City Center (a food store) and one in the ORR by the Airport. A shuttle bus will connect the two. M&S are committed to opening here and see the potential according to the paper.

Junior

Isn't there an M&S opening/opened in Clonmel ?

gscully

A decent store to create footfall and jobs in Waterford City??

Not having any of this. Link forwarded to bmcc@nimby.ie

Sully

M&S renews bid for Waterford
-50,000sq ft store on Outer Ring Road -2,275 job potential - shuttle to city centre food store

Marks & Spencer, the British fashion, household and supermarket giant, is renewing its bid for a foothold in Waterford with plans for a 50,000 sq ft store on the ORR and the potential to create more then 2,000 jobs.

The company also reaffirmed, in recent days, that it wants to open a "Simply Food Store" in the city centre.

To ensure that the retail heat of the city is retained a commitment has also been given to provide a shopping shuttle and park and ride from its proposed outlet on the outter ring road to the city center.

It is unclear if a new supermarket will be built or if the company will target vacant units already available in the city center.

In recent days the multi-national company has given a massive vote of confidence to the city stating publicly that it thinks, "Waterford is the city with the greatest potential going forward". Now company chiefs want to meet various interests to discuss employment potential and the skills base they want to draw from. The two-store plan hinges, however, on planning permission being approved for a major retail/leisure development on the Airport Road, off the outter ring road. Galway based Edward Holdings, which owns the site, has €200m already in place to fund the building of retail space, offices, leisure, and sport facilities and a cinema. The development with Marks & Spencer as the anchor tenant has the potential to create 2,275 jobs.

Part of their site is already zoned for mixed use development but to facilitate Marks and Spencer a change will be needed to the city development plan to allow for a store selling other then just "bulky white" goods.

The current City Council has rejected that proposal and as the locally elected representatives and challengers face the electorate, on Friday, a change of heart is being sought.

Over the past week John Nolan of Edward Holdings, Micheal Parker of Insight Communications and Former Waterford Chamber Chief Executive, Monica Leech, who heads up Outside Thinking Strategic Communications, have been meeting all candidates standing in Fridays local elections.

They outlined their plans in the hope of winning the new candidates support for a new planning application to be submitted to the City Council in the coming weeks. The principals have also met the City Manager, Micheal Walsh, to discuss their new plans.

He told the Waterford News & Star that the vibrancy of the city center must be protected and potential investors must be part of the solution to the current problems in the city center.

He stated that he had received commitments that Marks & Spencers would not only open a store in the city center but that smaller units of the other high fashion retailers that inevitably follow Marks & Spencers star would also open.

Ms. Leech expects that a new planning application will be submitted by the end of June and at the same time representatives from Marks & Spencers will be coming to the city to discuss job creation. The company, she said, "Wants to make it clear that while they are opening shortly in Clonmel they are not lost to Waterford."

She said the company believes Waterford has potential going forward and that is why it wants the support of the new council.

Meanwhile, Mr. Wyse, who owns a business in the city, said he would be supporting the application by Edward Holdings for shopping on the Airport road.

"The city center continues to deteriorate. Waterford needs a comprehensive well thought out retail solution. We cannot continue with the present ostrich position of stick your head in the sand, ignore the facts, ignore the issues and pray that something will happen some day," he said.

Research conducted two years ago revealed that Waterford was loosing €19.2m in retail spend and the position would be deteriorated further since then. The same survey revealed that 84% of people wanted M&S in Waterford".

Source: News & Star, June 2nd 09. Typed manually (forgive any mistakes :P)

mike65

Regarding exisiting empty retail space, whats the story with the centre at the Six Cross Roads roundabout? Could that be used?

Sully

mike65 wrote: »

Regarding exisiting empty retail space, whats the story with the centre at the Six Cross Roads roundabout? Could that be used?

Unlikely, plus thats not where they want to be. The empty space is refering to the city center, they have a space in the ORR. The Six Cross Roads is a load of small units

mike65

Cheers (anything happening with that place at all?).

Sully

mike65 wrote: »

Cheers (anything happening with that place at all?).

Doesn't look like it and I pass it daily.

wellbutty

If you want to validate Sullys efforts!

http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/story/?trs=mhauqleyid&cat=news

abouttobebanned

haha fair play to ya sully! There's dedication.

Sully

wellbutty wrote: »

If you want to validate Sullys efforts!

http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/story/?trs=mhauqleyid&cat=news

The feckers! I didn't think they would have the article up till later on in the week! :mad:

mike65

LOL! Still the effort is appriciated.

foxylad

was talking to the manager of Pennys -
they are turning more money in Railway Square than the ever did in John Roberts Sq
would be ideal for M&S - FOOD AND CLOTHING ---
and would benefit city centre --good parking --revive tesco ---

it would help everyone

and the rent is CHEAP!!!!!!!

Dum_Dum

The City must insist that such developments are restricted to the City Centre - if that's what the 'people' want. I believe it is possible to dictate terms.Waterford is underdeveloped by any metric and this fact does not go unnoticed by international capital who are constantly seeking unsaturated markets.

mike65

The people will go where the shops are provided not too much is put in their way. Marks 'n Sparks are also a name that will attract others in - they better not scare them off again.

sunnysoutheast

Dum_Dum wrote: »

The City must insist that such developments are restricted to the City Centre - if that's what the 'people' want. I believe it is possible to dictate terms.Waterford is underdeveloped by any metric and this fact does not go unnoticed by international capital who are constantly seeking unsaturated markets.

Generally I believe one does not "dictate terms" to Marks and Spencer due to their ability to draw other high value tenants to a development in which they are a major tenant. If anything it is the other way round.

If M&S put a decently-sized store in the City Centre then that can only be a good thing. A park-and-ride could also work well, as that would remove the unacessibility of out-of-town shopping to those without cars.

SSE

ziedth

Great news for the city centre,

I await the inevitable objections or permit problems.

On a side note I can see M&S doing serious damage to shops like Superquinn and Ardkeen superstores. Still, Free trade and all that.

mike65

Ardkeen are impervious it seems to me, they have Lidl next door, Tesco round the corner and are as busy as they ever were as far as I can tell.

BBM77

What’s to stop M&S closing the city centre shop in a couple of years after they get the Outer Ring Road shop they want up and running? Personally I think that M&S should be in the city centre or nothing. Their bullying to get in the Outer Ring Road should not be tolerated. M&S are not the holy grail of retailing that some would have you believe. If they open on the Outer Ring Road the novelty will wear off in a couple of months and Waterford will be left with the trouble it will cause of decades. I hope people will see beyond the Marks & Spencer brand – hype when they are considering their proposal.

mike65

Arrant nonsense tbh, M&S are not exactly fly by nights, they do not go out of fashion either.

ziedth

mike65 wrote: »

Ardkeen are impervious it seems to me, they have Lidl next door, Tesco round the corner and are as busy as they ever were as far as I can tell.

There is a simply enough reason for that Mike IMO and its target markets. IE SQ and Ardkeen both sell very high quality fresh food at a relitively high price now Lidl and tesco even though are much cheaper cannot compete with the quality of both their products aswell as customer service (well in SQ anyway)

Now M&S IIRC have the same high quality of product and what is more they are going to be branded so cheaper.

Not to mention that but look at the classic waterford if its new & shiney its popular theory of retailing. Much like TKMAXX.

AdMMM

I can't see this going ahead at all. Goes entirely against the development plan for the City and would be final nail in the coffin for the city centre.

Sully

AdMMM wrote: »

I can't see this going ahead at all. Goes entirely against the development plan for the City and would be final nail in the coffin for the city centre.

Even though they are building a retail unit in the City Center and are giving a bus service between the two?

nkay1985

Sully wrote: »

Even though they are building a retail unit in the City Center and are giving a bus service between the two?

Exactly Sully. If people want to hear death knells leave them hear them. I personally see this as a huge boost. The amount of people I know who live in Kilmeaden/Portlaw etc that regullarly travel to Cork specifically to go to Marks & Spencer is mad. So the big development will draw them in, along with many, many others.

And people have been giving out about perking charges in town, shouting for a park 'n' ride facility and here's a company who's going to do it for us!

2,000 jobs sounds very good to me.

fricatus

Wait now... hasn't the KRM development (Newgate Centre) already got the go-ahead, and won't it provide exactly the sort of unit that M&S would need in Waterford?

The planning application for this one hasn't been submitted yet. God knows how many hoops it will have to jump through with the City Council, the usual objectors, and ABP, before it gets final approval. It could be that the Newgate Centre is half built before ths one even gets the nod.

Why then would M&S want to go with the Airport Road proposal? Surely they'd want to open as soon as possible in a suitable location?

Something about this story just doesn't add up. M&S are bound to be in negotiations with KRM on being one of the anchor tenants there (I mean who else would be likely anchor tenants? BT is the only other one I can think of). If that's the case, are M&S putting this out there as a negotiating tactic?

I'm not given to conspiracy theories, but I just can't see any alternative explanantion that makes sense (Occam's Razor and all that...)

fricatus

nkay1985 wrote: »

Exactly Sully. If people want to hear death knells leave them hear them. I personally see this as a huge boost. The amount of people I know who live in Kilmeaden/Portlaw etc that regullarly travel to Cork specifically to go to Marks & Spencer is mad. So the big development will draw them in, along with many, many others.

I agree that M&S is a huge draw - I constantly hear of people in work going to Newbridge, of all places, because there is an M&S there. However, they should be actively encouraged into the Newgate Centre (now that it has planning permission and all...)

nkay1985 wrote: »

And people have been giving out about perking charges in town, shouting for a park 'n' ride facility and here's a company who's going to do it for us!

The lack of provision of park & ride facilities is a massive failing of the city council. It's not good enough to have P&R provided by a private company as a bargaining chip in a planning application. The temporary P&R set up for the Tall Ships race was a massive success. Why wasn't that momentum acted upon?

Anyway, the idea of P&R is that people drive to a site and take a bus to the shops in the centre from there. It's not P&R if the shops are out there in the suburbs, remember that. Who's going to go to the city centre then?

nkay1985 wrote: »

2,000 jobs sounds very good to me.

And it sounds like an exaggeration to me. There are about 25,400 people employed in Waterford (see report here). Are they seriously suggesting that one development is going to lead to an 8% increase in the city's employment numbers?

I'm against this development. It's bad enough that Waterford County Council have allowed TK Maxx to set up a suburban store. It's bad enough that Kilkenny County Council have allowed a massive (bigger than City Square) development right on the boundary of our city. However if our own City Council allows this development, it will ruin the city centre.

The corrollary of that, and the challenge facing the City Council, is that they need to aggressively provide retail space in the city centre, and sort out access and parking, including the provision of P&R. Unfortunately they seem to be completely incapable of doing this!

BBM77

mike65 wrote: »

Arrant nonsense tbh, M&S are not exactly fly by nights, they do not go out of fashion either.

The city centre has been struggling for a sense of purpose for years now and we are thinking about putting a huge M&S on the outskirts, that is the nonsense.

I never said M&S were fly by nights; after being in many of them I just don’t see the big deal about them. Their clothes are bland and their food is just jazzed up versions of what you would get in any supermarket.

gscully

fricatus wrote: »

Wait now... hasn't the KRM development (Newgate Centre) already got the go-ahead, and won't it provide exactly the sort of unit that M&S would need in Waterford?

The planning application for this one hasn't been submitted yet. God knows how many hoops it will have to jump through with the City Council, the usual objectors, and ABP, before it gets final approval. It could be that the Newgate Centre is half built before ths one even gets the nod.

Why then would M&S want to go with the Airport Road proposal? Surely they'd want to open as soon as possible in a suitable location?

Something about this story just doesn't add up. M&S are bound to be in negotiations with KRM on being one of the anchor tenants there (I mean who else would be likely anchor tenants? BT is the only other one I can think of). If that's the case, are M&S putting this out there as a negotiating tactic?

I'm not given to conspiracy theories, but I just can't see any alternative explanantion that makes sense (Occam's Razor and all that...)

Going by the thread on the Newgate Centre, although planning permission is granted, funding has not been. I imagine M&S would have no problem getting funding for the developments they're talking about and may have decided not to bother waiting around for the banks to loosen up.

fricatus

gscully wrote: »

Going by the thread on the Newgate Centre, although planning permission is granted, funding has not been. I imagine M&S would have no problem getting funding for the developments they're talking about and may have decided not to bother waiting around for the banks to loosen up.

I'm certainly open to correction on this, but in neither case would M&S be the developer. The Newgate Centre is being developed by a consortium called KRM, and the Airport Road development is being done by Edward Holdings. Either shopping centre would probably then probably be sold into some sort of property portfolio (owned by an investment fund usually), and managed on behalf of the owners by a management company. I presume the management company would negotiate with M&S, setting the terms of the lease, etc.

Edward Holdings appear from the article to have €200 million in funding, but no planning permission. KRM have planning permission, but some here have speculated that funding is an issue.

It's not clear why funding would be more forthcoming for Edward Holdings than for KRM. The latter have a city-centre site and planning permission. I doubt that Edward Holdings have €200 million sitting in the bank; rather they probably have that amount approved pending planning permission, which is why they're so eager to talk to our prospective councillors.

merlante

Waterford is of course the location with the best potential 'going forward'. Why? Because it's by far the biggest centre of population without a number of major stores and with an undersupply of city centre retail space.

M&S are only the first to come nosing around. When the economy recovers, nothing will be built anywhere for years, with the exception of Waterford city. (And plenty of centres will close.)

Now M&S want to build on the ORR despite planning being refused the last time. Now they are talking about a shuttle bus. This is all a load of rubbish, and the sort of thing that can be silently discontinued a year after the store opens. It could never be more than a promise made in good faith anyhow and completely unenforceable.

Whether M&S go on the ORR or into the city centre will be the making or breaking of the city centre for years, and the city as a whole. Centralised shopping gives the best comparison shopping experience and puts the least strain on the urban infrastructure. KRM must go ahead and M&S must go in there.

It is worth living without M&S and their jobs for another few years in order for the right thing to be done. KRM should be helped by any means possible. M&S should be told that they have one choice. That way KRM will do well, the city centre will increase footfall drastically, more shoppers will come to the city centre, more money will be generated, more businesses will open and so on.

If they go out to the ORR, the city centre will die, Waterford will be seen as a mixed shopping experience with units scattered all over the suburbs, with a dead centre. And because of the dying infrastructure, cafes, pubs, etc. will disappear or fail to appear. You are never going to have cafes and pubs next to TKMaxx or an M&S on the ORR, except maybe the odd one like the place beside Superquinn. But the city centre is the most fertile ground for all sorts of small businesses to thrive, providing there is footfall. KRM, bolstered by M&S will provide this footfall. They have to be told.

KRM without M&S is a risk. The council must stand firm. M&S are only teasing with jobs at a very vulnerable time.

mike65

I'm glad you are so sure you know what M&S are thinking and what they'll do.