Corrib gas, the truth is out

youtheman

scientific1982 wrote: »

Thereby justifying their share of the profits made from our natural resources.

But it's only someone's natural resource once its found. So who do you expect to front up for the cost of attempting to find it ? (with the 2% chance of sucess at a cost of €50m).

People give out about Shell when they win the lottery, but no-one gives out about them for buying loads of tickets.

scientific1982

youtheman wrote: »

But it's only someone's natural resource once its found. So who do you expect to front up for the cost of attempting to find it ? (with the 2% chance of sucess at a cost of €50m).

People give out about Shell when they win the lottery, but no-one gives out about them for buying loads of tickets.

Its our territory, it used to be the property of the state. Shell will likely make hundreds of billions in return for single figure billions. I dont blame shell, they're a company, I blame our government.

MagicSean

scientific1982 wrote: »

Its our territory, it used to be the property of the state. Shell will likely make hundreds of billions in return for single figure billions. I dont blame shell, they're a company, I blame our government.

We will get 25% of their profit. As opposed to 100% of nothing.

scientific1982

k_mac wrote: »

We will get 25% of their profit. As opposed to 100% of nothing.

Prior to 1992, we would have been claiming 50%, but thanks to lobbying Bertie reduced it to 25% in 1992. Back in the boom years a little forward thinking by FF could have secured our future for years to come.

K-9

scientific1982 wrote: »

Prior to 1992, we would have been claiming 50%, but thanks to lobbying Bertie reduced it to 25% in 1992. Back in the boom years a little forward thinking by FF could have secured our future for years to come.

And we probably wouldn't be talking about Shell to Sea as it wouldn't exist. Probably would have been the best thing for everybody's wrecked heads!

High energy

youtheman wrote: »

But it's only someone's natural resource once its found. So who do you expect to front up for the cost of attempting to find it ? (with the 2% chance of sucess at a cost of €50m).

People give out about Shell when they win the lottery, but no-one gives out about them for buying loads of tickets.

€50 million, or even €2.5 billion, is nothing in comparison to the €49 billion cost of bailing out the banks, or the €20 billion we borrow every year to fund our budget deficit. Especially considering the return of that €2.5 billion investment could potentially be €100 billion+.

I find it strange that the people trying to point out the corruptness and sheer stupidity of past government decisions are branded "stupid tree-huggers". It really does highlight the destructive Irish attitude that has us in this mess.

Yes we may not have the skills or resources in the past (or even now) to explore the atlantic for oil, but a good forward-thinking government would have invested in it's people and technologies to develop the skills necessary to do so. It might have taken 10 years, it might have taken 100 years, but the oil wasn't going anywhere.

Norway are doing quite well for themselves now in the middle of the worst recession in history, roughly 3% unemployment. Budget deficit?? Ha, they actually had a budget SURPLUS in 2009.

youtheman

scientific1982 wrote: »

Its our territory, it used to be the property of the state.

And its still our territory. Shell don't own the seabed.

There is loads of unexplored acreage out there and god knows how many billion of gallons of oil and cubic feet of gas are there. And there's nothing stopping anyone, either government or private, from applying for approval to drill a well. But I think it's a bit 'Irish' to blame someone who had the balls to take the risk, and the knocks, and eventually make it work.

You must come from some crazy school of economics if you think that Shell are going to take a huge financial risk and then hand over the pot of gold to someone else.

scientific1982

youtheman wrote: »

And its still our territory. Shell don't own the seabed.

There is loads of unexplored acreage out there and god knows how many billion of gallons of oil and cubic feet of gas are there. And there's nothing stopping anyone, either government or private, from applying for approval to drill a well. But I think it's a bit 'Irish' to blame someone who had the balls to take the risk, and the knocks, and eventually make it work.

You must come from some crazy school of economics if you think that Shell are going to take a huge financial risk and then hand over the pot of gold to someone else.

yeah still our territory. How do you propose we exploit it after shell have moved on. Will we get some property developers to build underwater bungalows.

Whats to stop every other enegry giant from coming in and taking advantage of our relatively low taxation rate.

In relation to "crazy school of economics", im not blaming shell, im blaming our government who didnt have the balls or foresight to exploit our gas reserves for the benefit of everyone. We could have secured our enegry needs for years to come, made back the billions we invested by exporting enegry and made Ireland extremely attractive for foreign investment by keeping fuel costs low.

Wompa1

scientific1982 wrote: »

In relation to "crazy school of economics", im not blaming shell, im blaming our government who didnt have the balls or foresight to exploit our gas reserves for the benefit of everyone. We could have secured our enegry needs for years to come, made back the billions we invested by exporting enegry and made Ireland extremely attractive for foreign investment by keeping fuel costs low.

If people want to blame anyone it's the goverment alright. I have a friend that worked on the site for nearly a year. He didn't think too highly of the protestors and echoed the fact they mostly aren't local and get bussed in.

The workers up there are renting accomodation and buying groceries and the like in the local shops. Most of the locals seem to appreciate that and welcome it.

youtheman

scientific1982 wrote: »

im not blaming shell, im blaming our government who didnt have the balls or foresight

I'm afraid you've a very simplistic view of the Oil & Gas industry. If you want to be successful in the hydrocarbon exploration business you need:

a) very deep pockets and
b) highly trained and experienced personnel

So, as a tax payer, are you saying you want some civil servants, reporting to some Jacky Healy Ray type character, authorizing a spend of €20m of public money per well with the possibility of a 2% success rate ?. It would put NAMA in the ha'penny place.

johnr1

Hi all,
Im new to this debate, and I have only read some of the thread, - most of it appears to centre on the folly/otherwise of past governments in giving drilling rights to Shell.
I live far from Mayo and know nobody concerned but I heard a rumour recently that Shell's lease/contract or whatever is fairly close to expiration and that were the protesters to drag this out for another couple of years that some/all rights revert to the Irish government.
Is this complete bull**** or may there be a nugget of truth in it ?
I again apologisde for my ignorance on the debate.
For what its worth I used to think the protesters were stupid nimbys, but Im beginning to wonder.....what if......

scientific1982

youtheman wrote: »

I'm afraid you've a very simplistic view of the Oil & Gas industry. If you want to be successful in the hydrocarbon exploration business you need:

a) very deep pockets and
b) highly trained and experienced personnel

So, as a tax payer, are you saying you want some civil servants, reporting to some Jacky Healy Ray type character, authorizing a spend of €20m of public money per well with the possibility of a 2% success rate ?. It would put NAMA in the ha'penny place.

Im afraid you havent even read any of my comments or you've some other problem that I cant help you with.

yosemite_sam

youtheman wrote: »

I'm afraid you've a very simplistic view of the Oil & Gas industry. If you want to be successful in the hydrocarbon exploration business you need:

a) very deep pockets and
b) highly trained and experienced personnel

So, as a tax payer, are you saying you want some civil servants, reporting to some Jacky Healy Ray type character, authorizing a spend of €20m of public money per well with the possibility of a 2% success rate ?. It would put NAMA in the ha'penny place.

A lot ofthe work surveying the west coast of Ireland was done back in the 1970's, the price of oil had to reach a certain level before it became viable. It has also become more viable by the removal of Irish interest in any royalties in it. This was removed by Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern and Frank Fahy. Fahy has made Shell's interest the national interest they can CPO land have the Irish navy deploy two ships to ensure they got the pipe in and draft in 400 Garda with the Army on stand by. I whitnessed all this, which begs the question why? If Ireland will make 1. 5 billion out of the 650 billion that is out there why should we be worried if Shell can start producing gas and oil in Ballinaboy to sell to the rest of Europe for their profit not ours, oh and remember that every cent spent here is offset aginst their costs so I doubt very much if Ireland will ever see a penny.

mrblack

This Shell to Sea campaign is little more than pseudo random backgroung noise.

When this gas comes ashore and our gas needs are secure for next 15-20 years then no one will be remember Shell to Sea or their pointless little campaign! People want heat when its cold and they don't particularly care where the gas comes from as long as its cheap!

MrBlack

yosemite_sam

Do you think Shell will sell you're gas to you any cheaper than they would sell Russian gas to you?

Iorras55

mrblack wrote: »

This Shell to Sea campaign is little more than pseudo random backgroung noise.

When this gas comes ashore and our gas needs are secure for next 15-20 years then no one will be remember Shell to Sea or their pointless little campaign! People want heat when its cold and they don't particularly care where the gas comes from as long as its cheap!

MrBlack

Why do you think it will be cheap? It will cost at least as much to the Irish as gas from anywhere else will and even worse, if Shell can get a higher price for it abroad, then that's where they'll sell it to. The Irish Government have given it away to them (that's if they ever get 10 kms of pipeline laid between the sea and the inland white elephant refinery) for nothing with absolutely no obligation for Shell to see the gas to Ireland. And, with my crystal ball in hand, I see a stonybroke Ireland watching them sell it to the highest bidder - and after all the corruption and skullduggery for the last many years,that's not going to be Ireland any time soon.

Bosco boy

yosemite_sam wrote: »

A lot ofthe work surveying the west coast of Ireland was done back in the 1970's, the price of oil had to reach a certain level before it became viable. It has also become more viable by the removal of Irish interest in any royalties in it. This was removed by Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern and Frank Fahy. Fahy has made Shell's interest the national interest they can CPO land have the Irish navy deploy two ships to ensure they got the pipe in and draft in 400 Garda with the Army on stand by. I whitnessed all this, which begs the question why? If Ireland will make 1. 5 billion out of the 650 billion that is out there why should we be worried if Shell can start producing gas and oil in Ballinaboy to sell to the rest of Europe for their profit not ours, oh and remember that every cent spent here is offset aginst their costs so I doubt very much if Ireland will ever see a penny.

Its a pity shell to sea have failed to engage the public with their arguement which is some parts was a good one, they are completely discredited with their association with eirigi and their rent a crowd tree huggers from the uK. There was a time whem Dr Mark Garavan was the spokesman and he was credible but then the die hards took over the campaign and everyone else outside erris switched off. The first arguement was the pipeline and there was no mention of the quantity of resources, when the pipeline issues were being addressed they changed the arguement to the resources. If they were around when the wheel was invented they would have objected!!!!

Krusader

We all should be up there protesting not to stop the pipeline but to take back our gas reserves, we'd be stinking rich again i tells ya!!

joebucks

Crosáidí wrote: »

We all should be up there protesting not to stop the pipeline but to take back our gas reserves, we'd be stinking rich again i tells ya!!

jobs for all the boys

Iorras55

Bosco boy wrote: »

Its a pity shell to sea have failed to engage the public with their arguement which is some parts was a good one, they are completely discredited with their association with eirigi and their rent a crowd tree huggers from the uK. There was a time whem Dr Mark Garavan was the spokesman and he was credible but then the die hards took over the campaign and everyone else outside erris switched off. The first arguement was the pipeline and there was no mention of the quantity of resources, when the pipeline issues were being addressed they changed the arguement to the resources. If they were around when the wheel was invented they would have objected!!!!

Your understanding of the whole thing is really quite distorted. Please watch this prize winning documentary and then get your friends to watch it too. And buy and read Lorna Siggins's book 'Once Upon a Time in the West' from all good bookshops and available from your local library for free. And, see the new film 'The Pipe' - news footage from a news cameraman taken over the last few years - coming to cinemas nationwide from 3rd December. Please see the truth. We are the victims of corrupt Government, not the perpetrators.
http://www.vimeo.com/8668733

mrblack

yosemite_sam wrote: »

Do you think Shell will sell you're gas to you any cheaper than they would sell Russian gas to you?

They would try not to of course. But being first in the queue has to have some economic advantages. Ireland will be the first customer of the gas and should get it at the best market price-Rational being that because it wont be travelling along thousands of miles of pipline with each carrier and transit country taking a cut along the way -then it should be good value in theory compared to gas coming from Russia. Gas is not easily stored like liquid fuels so needs to be sold on quickly after treatment at whatever the prevailing market price is. Effectively the gas would be stranded here with BG as the only customer which would be in a strong negotiating position unlike in 2007 when BG then secured supply at a high price compared to international peer companies.

I just hope that all irish consumers benefit from the gas at keen enough prices to alleviate energy poverty which is widespread at the moment with the high (and soon getting higher) kerosene price per litre.

mrblack

Bosco boy

Iorras55 wrote: »

Your understanding of the whole thing is really quite distorted. Please watch this prize winning documentary and then get your friends to watch it too. And buy and read Lorna Siggins's book 'Once Upon a Time in the West' from all good bookshops and available from your local library for free. And, see the new film 'The Pipe' - news footage from a news cameraman taken over the last few years - coming to cinemas nationwide from 3rd December. Please see the truth. We are the victims of corrupt Government, not the perpetrators.
http://www.vimeo.com/8668733

I have read the book and i have had a view up close, i dont need a film to tell me about it, editors tend to leave the other side of the story on the editorial rooms floor!!

Iorras55

Bosco boy wrote: »

I have read the book and i have had a view up close, i dont need a film to tell me about it, editors tend to leave the other side of the story on the editorial rooms floor!!

....and then you've gone home.......well, lucky you! Both 'sides' speak in that film! Why are these film documentaries winning awards across the globe? Could it be that they're telling the truth? Only one that didn't get too far when it put itself up for an award was the Paul Williams/Gregg claptrap.

Iorras55

mrblack wrote: »

They would try not to of course. But being first in the queue has to have some economic advantages. Ireland will be the first customer of the gas and should get it at the best market price-Rational being that because it wont be travelling along thousands of miles of pipline with each carrier and transit country taking a cut along the way -then it should be good value in theory compared to gas coming from Russia. Gas is not easily stored like liquid fuels so needs to be sold on quickly after treatment at whatever the prevailing market price is. Effectively the gas would be stranded here with BG as the only customer which would be in a strong negotiating position unlike in 2007 when BG then secured supply at a high price compared to international peer companies.

I just hope that all irish consumers benefit from the gas at keen enough prices to alleviate energy poverty which is widespread at the moment with the high (and soon getting higher) kerosene price per litre. mrblack

I'm ehrm....glad.... ahhem...... to see that you think its all fine and dandy that our corrupt politicians give away billions of euros worth of Ireland's natural resources to a MNC who pay nothing to the owners (the Irish people), trod anybody who gets into their way under their steel capped hobnail boots into the SAC bog and bay that they destroy, claim millions in tax incentives, and then might or might not sell Irish gas that they have received gratis back to the Irish people if the price is high enough. If its not, they'll take it straight through the interconnectors (they don't only flow one way you know) to Scotland and beyond!!! By 'all Irish consumers' read 'some urban consumers' . Do you really think that any rural areas have gas appliances or any use for it? Maybe you think rural Ireland doesn't exist or only exists for your benefit?
Whatever, I hope life is as rosy for you as you seem to think it will be. What 'newspaper' keeps you up to date? Mirror? Independent? Sun? :rolleyes:

Bosco boy

Iorras55 wrote: »

....and then you've gone home.......well, lucky you! Both 'sides' speak in that film! Why are these film documentaries winning awards across the globe? Could it be that they're telling the truth? Only one that didn't get too far when it put itself up for an award was the Paul Williams/Gregg claptrap.

hopefully it's balanced I'll have a look at it as I did the book, I wonder how the presence of eirigi is covered!

Augmerson

Paul McWilliam's is in somebody's pocket for sure. I read about people giving out about protestors being bussed and the anti-shell (because as far as I can gather with that lot, it was not about not wanting to develop our resources, it's about getting back our resources from a company who will send all of the profits of this out of the country at a time when we are broke ass as ****) movement having no support in the local area, there may be some truth to that, I'd wonder myself but atleast there is a kind of parity there between those for it and against it. None of the Gardai are local either and all shipped in from other counties. Since when are the Guards to be lended out to private enterprise like this?

Iorras55

Bosco boy wrote: »

hopefully it's balanced I'll have a look at it as I did the book, I wonder how the presence of eirigi is covered!

What presence of Eirigi? Do you mean that someone who supports whatever Eirigi is came to Mayo for a day or two and then went home and wrote about being here or just what do you mean? What are you talking about? Normal, ordinary farming, fishing, working people trying to earn their living live here. Obviously you have some problem with somebody from whoever Eirigi is. Maybe you should set an Eirigi trap outside your own front gate so that no Eirigi person can walk past!

There is no Eirigi group in Erris -maybe its the similarity in name that's muddling you? Eirigi vs Erris? Do you think we ask every person here their political persuasion or what? No idea where you come from but here we don't do such things. This is just silly! Hope you enjoy the film documentary and the beautiful landscape here and see the problems we face.

Bosco boy

No, I'm not mixing up eirigi and erris, erris is a beautiful place with salt of the earth people, eirigi are Provo scum going from protest to protest trying to turn protests violent. The couldn't give a toss about gas or the people of erris!

sligometalhead

Augmerson wrote: »

Paul McWilliam's is in somebody's pocket for sure. I read about people giving out about protestors being bussed and the anti-shell (because as far as I can gather with that lot, it was not about not wanting to develop our resources, it's about getting back our resources from a company who will send all of the profits of this out of the country at a time when we are broke ass as ****) movement having no support in the local area, there may be some truth to that, I'd wonder myself but atleast there is a kind of parity there between those for it and against it. None of the Gardai are local either and all shipped in from other counties. Since when are the Guards to be lended out to private enterprise like this?

Paul Williams watched the first Rugby match played in Croke Park as a guest in the corporate box belonging to who??? ..... none other than Shell!

sligometalhead

Bosco boy wrote: »

Its a pity shell to sea have failed to engage the public with their arguement which is some parts was a good one, they are completely discredited with their association with eirigi and their rent a crowd tree huggers from the uK. There was a time whem Dr Mark Garavan was the spokesman and he was credible but then the die hards took over the campaign and everyone else outside erris switched off. The first arguement was the pipeline and there was no mention of the quantity of resources, when the pipeline issues were being addressed they changed the arguement to the resources. !

Actually the pipeline issues have not been addressed. Eventually the campaigners were vindicated when an bord pleanala reluctantly accepted the danger that the pipeline was. Now shell are proposing a new pipeline that they themselves and the avantica report already said was too dangerous to put in place

eirigi are Provo scum going from protest to protest trying to turn protests violent. The couldn't give a toss about gas or the people of erris!

And your evidence for that is?

sligometalhead

mrblack wrote: »

This Shell to Sea campaign is little more than pseudo random backgroung noise.

When this gas comes ashore and our gas needs are secure for next 15-20 years then no one will be remember Shell to Sea or their pointless little campaign! People want heat when its cold and they don't particularly care where the gas comes from as long as its cheap!

MrBlack

Shell do not have to sell this gas to us, they can sell to who they want at whatever price they want so it does nothing to secure our gas needs. We will gain nothing from this giveaway. Wonder who are responsible for it? Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern - two totally trustworthy and uncooruptible politicians!!!!!!

johnmcdnl

sligometalhead wrote: »

Shell do not have to sell this gas to us, they can sell to who they want at whatever price they want so it does nothing to secure our gas needs. We will gain nothing from this giveaway. Wonder who are responsible for it? Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern - two totally trustworthy and uncooruptible politicians!!!!!!

well once again - i'm going to have to say it again - were Ireland ever going to set up a national "search for oil and gas" corporation that would cost billions of euro or pounds or whatever currency you like in the hope of finding oil and gas... we didn't have the money to do that so we may as well try to get a wee bit for ourselves and let Shell or whatever other mmulti national company pump their money into it...

If this deal hadn't been made well then there'd be no notion that there was gas at all...

MagicSean

sligometalhead wrote: »

Shell do not have to sell this gas to us, they can sell to who they want at whatever price they want so it does nothing to secure our gas needs. We will gain nothing from this giveaway. Wonder who are responsible for it? Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern - two totally trustworthy and uncooruptible politicians!!!!!!

We get a percentage of the profits. Which is a lot better than the big zero we would have gotten if Shell hadn't come.

Bosco boy wrote: »

hopefully it's balanced I'll have a look at it as I did the book, I wonder how the presence of eirigi is covered!

It's not balanced. I don't think Eirigi are really mentioned. The two main activists are a guy from wexford who moved up to protest and a girlf from Canada who did the same.

Bosco boy

sligometalhead wrote: »

Paul Williams watched the first Rugby match played in Croke Park as a guest in the corporate box belonging to who??? ..... none other than Shell!

Where's your evidence for that?

sligometalhead

johnmcdnl wrote: »

well once again - i'm going to have to say it again - were Ireland ever going to set up a national "search for oil and gas" corporation that would cost billions of euro or pounds or whatever currency you like in the hope of finding oil and gas... we didn't have the money to do that so we may as well try to get a wee bit for ourselves and let Shell or whatever other mmulti national company pump their money into it...

We know where the oil and gas is and while yes it would cost an initial output to set up our own gas/oil company, it light of the vast wealth that IS there, we would have no trouble getting that money and paying it off rapidly, unlike the current loans being proposed. No other country in the world has given away their oil and gas in such a fashion

Iorras55

The two main activists are a guy from wexford who moved up to protest and a girlf from Canada who did the same.

I live here and to be absolutely honest I simply have no idea who you could be referring to. There is no 'guy from Wexford' that I have ever come across and the 'girl from Canada' has never been come across either! Anyone is welcome to come to this area and search for these two alleged reprobates if they wish. I'm absolutely positive that if such a pair exist, then they're not existing in the Shell affected area of Erris and nobody here would have the faintest idea who you are talking about. Thanks for the descriptions though - we'll be watching out for them!!;):o:confused:

sligometalhead

Iorras55 wrote: »

I live here and to be absolutely honest I simply have no idea who you could be referring to. There is no 'guy from Wexford' that I have ever come across and the 'girl from Canada' has never been come across either! Anyone is welcome to come to this area and search for these two alleged reprobates if they wish. I'm absolutely positive that if such a pair exist, then they're not existing in the Shell affected area of Erris and nobody here would have the faintest idea who you are talking about. Thanks for the descriptions though - we'll be watching out for them!!;):o:confused:

Yeah this is just typical of the nonsense thats get thrown about. Not that there is a problem with someone who might feel strongly about such an important issue doing so.

Bosco boy

sligometalhead wrote: »

Yeah this is just typical of the nonsense thats get thrown about. Not that there is a problem with someone who might feel strongly about such an important issue doing so.

What about all the crusties, where are they from, Bangor erris???

sligometalhead

Bosco boy wrote: »

What about all the crusties, where are they from, Bangor erris???

Have you a problem with where people are from?

Bosco boy

sligometalhead wrote: »

Have you a problem with where people are from?

Yes, when non local people come into an area just to cause trouble and leave the locals with the consequences.

Duncan31

Shell to sea are dying away here locally. THey are nothing more than a laughing stock now tbh.
They did make the mistake of allow all sorts of undesirables join the protest. I guess this was always going to happen when you have the likes of Maura Harrington as leader. A woman who is a disgrace to her profession and I am not exagerating when I say that she neglected her job due to this protest.
Anyway, the shell to sea backed violence locally has destroyed the 2% following that they initially had. Stuff like phone calls at night to people, fuel suppliers being intimidated etc. Old people wh sold land to shell being comstantly terrorised in their homes.

Augmerson

Duncan31 wrote: »

Shell to sea are dying away here locally. THey are nothing more than a laughing stock now tbh.
They did make the mistake of allow all sorts of undesirables join the protest.

Of course, how foolish of those Shell to Sea kids, letting any old riff raff demonstrate alongside them, sure'd you'd think they had a right to protest or something. Cheek of them.

Duncan31 wrote:

Stuff like phone calls at night to people, fuel suppliers being intimidated etc. Old people wh sold land to shell being comstantly terrorised in their homes.

Would you mind expanding upon this or is this just gossip? And were young people who also sold land to Shell not terrorised also? Blatant ageism there. Shocking stuff.

Iorras55

Duncan31 wrote: »

Shell to sea are dying away here locally. THey are nothing more than a laughing stock now tbh.
They did make the mistake of allow all sorts of undesirables join the protest. I guess this was always going to happen when you have the likes of Maura Harrington as leader. A woman who is a disgrace to her profession and I am not exagerating when I say that she neglected her job due to this protest.
Anyway, the shell to sea backed violence locally has destroyed the 2% following that they initially had. Stuff like phone calls at night to people, fuel suppliers being intimidated etc. Old people wh sold land to shell being comstantly terrorised in their homes.

To you and the posters of the last five posts - what are you on? Wexford guys and Canadian women and leaders of Shell to Sea. Obviously Maura did not teach you Duncan or you would not have your post full of spelling errors, small capitals for names etc.... You lot are completely mad, never mind wildly inaccurate and hallucinatory! Anyone who wants to find out the real facts would be well advised to stay clear of these 'poser' posters and look elsewhere for the real facts! I should get mad at your lies but do you know, it's not worth taking offence at such obviously uneducated and inferior posturing and outright lies! Just go away and take Bertie's infamous advice! Obviously, I don't include Augmerson's post which has come in between me counting five posts back and getting this online. Please exclude Augmerson's when making the count back. Dear God, are these posters working for IRMS or what? The mentality would suggest so!

Bosco boy

Iorras55 wrote: »

To you and the posters of the last five posts - what are you on? Wexford guys and Canadian women and leaders of Shell to Sea. Obviously Maura did not teach you Duncan or you would not have your post full of spelling errors, small capitals for names etc.... You lot are completely mad, never mind wildly inaccurate and hallucinatory! Anyone who wants to find out the real facts would be well advised to stay clear of these 'poser' posters and look elsewhere for the real facts! I should get mad at your lies but do you know, it's not worth taking offence at such obviously uneducated and inferior posturing and outright lies! Just go away and take Bertie's infamous advice! Obviously, I don't include Augmerson's post which has come in between me counting five posts back and getting this online. Please exclude Augmerson's when making the count back. Dear God, are these posters working for IRMS or what? The mentality would suggest so![/QUOTE

Imagine that! someone disagreed with you, how dare they!!!

Iorras55

"As a writer and researcher with 20 years experience living and working in Latin America I have witnessed many situations similar to the Corrib gas dispute where rural communities faced similar projects, similar harassment, similar violence and a similar deaf ear from the authorities…such situations are often referred to as a ‘situacion limite’, a crisis which brings the individual and the community to the very limit of their capacity to stay sane, focused and healthy. This type of campaign might last a week, a month, a year, rarely more, before breaking point and resolution, whether positive or negative. In Erris, this situation, which has men, women and children on the edge of a nervous breakdown, has been going on for 10 years, and there is no end in sight.

…. Panic attacks, sleeplessness, unease, anxiety about the present, fear of the future, disillusionment, disquiet, shattered assumptions, obsessional behavior, excessive personal sacrifice, lack of concentration, paranoia, headaches, backaches, edginess, irritability, endless tasks to be done, unprecedented stress, excessive demands on individuals, overwhelming sense of exhaustion, inability to function as normal, inability to make plans or take decisions, endless waiting, shock, depression, trauma, physical injury, nightmares, daymares, burnout, lack of appetite, stomach pain, nausea, rage, regret, helplessness, hopelessness, feeling numb, inner pain, emotional outbursts, hyper vigilance, muscle tension, flashbacks, fatigue, fear, self doubt, loss of trust in institutions, lack of faith in the future, negative thoughts, inability to focus on your own life and plans..

This is not a matter of guesswork or speculation. Dr Keith Swanick, a Belmullet-based medical professional, observed, ‘half the people I’m seeing now from Glengad are suffering from stress and worry.’

None of the symptoms described above feature in Shell’s EIS or EIA or in the government analysis of the project and rarely if ever in the mainstream media’s coverage of the conflict..the community is understandably reluctant to reveal these symptoms, lest they be seized upon as a sign of weakness or exhaustion which might be taken advantage of by their well resourced opponents.

Things have changed dramatically in Kilcommon parish, everyday life has been turned upside down and no one knows what to expect next, whether their life may be in danger or their freedom taken away in defense of a farm, a road, a field, a stretch of sand. Meanwhile, every minute counts with fresh hopes and fresh protests, pushing, shoving, arrest, bail, jail, isolation, then more research, presentation, legal issues, deadlines, submissions and setbacks ebbing and flowing like the high tide at full moon. And the symptoms start all over again..

snapshots
..A three year old child becomes hysterical at the sound of a hoover being switched on or a tractor starting up.. the panic began after she took fright at a police helicopter hovering low over the home of her grandfather, a prominent participant in the campaign. ..

..A son takes care of his mother but due to court order must take a massive detour to get her to the nearest medical facility for regular checkups..

..Farm work is undone as neighbours monitor commonage in case of trespass and then there is the aggravation of existing symptoms- a stroke in one case, high blood pressure for many others. Someone else described to me how he didn’t sleep for three days after the drilling rig pulled up in front of his home.

The cost and scale of the project is described by the company in a reverential tone, there will be millions, perhaps billions of Euro yet the true cost of the project, before any gas has been piped or bottled, is incalculable, its impact will stretch far into the future.. ”The last ten years feels like two hundred years” I heard a woman say.

The symptoms described above match those of post traumatic stress disorder, an illness associated with war and earthquakes, particularly common among soldiers returning from the battlefield. For the people of Kilcommon the past ten years has resembled life during wartime. The term ‘disorder’ is misleading as the symptoms are a normal response to an abnormal situation, common reactions to extraordinary experiences. An elderly local told me that ‘jail has become a normal consequence of protecting our families.’

This is the daily diet of despair which marks the experience of hundreds of people in Kilcommon parish, living in proximity to a project which remains unknown, alien, a type of outside occupation imposed and sustained by force. When a traumatic situation occurs in a school or workplace, the phrase ‘a team of counsellors’ is sure to follow.. in Erris, however, people are expected to fend for themselves, falling back on their own resources, their family and friends.. Add in the divisions among the community, in an area where each family is part of a broader network of relatives and friends bound tightly together within their parishes, and you have an emergency which requires an appropriate response.

Now you’re talking my language.. I lost count of the number of times I have heard this expression during this hearing..but whose language are we talking here? Apparently, the language of progress, development and economic growth. The local people speak another language, of respect for nature, of low impact living and of leaving behind an environment fit for future generations. The ABP inspector, Martin Nolan called for emotion to be set aside. ‘I don’t want to see any heated contributions’ he said, recommending instead ‘factual, measured representations.’ It would be great if every human emotion could be put on hold while this hearing and this project are under consideration but there is far too much at stake, people’s livelihoods, their wellbeing, their children’s futures.

This is a community which takes pride in mapping out local place names and restoring gravestones, maintaining connection between past, present and future. One graveyard yielded 333 graves, many of them on the verge of disappearing. This is how many local people feel about their locality as the project advances. A sense of familiar landscapes disappearing. Someone else described a stretch of beach they have always frequented, recalling every thistle plant and cowpat. This is the language of place, the language of identity, the language of home. In the solemn setting of a technical hearing, it sounds like a foreign language.

A sense of internal displacement has already taken root. One parent travels 45 minutes to avoid the beach overlooking his own home, unable to revisit it after aggressive surveillance aimed at his grandchildren. A doctor told one individual, suffering high blood pressure, to go away for a week or two until work near his home was completed.

On day two of the hearing people were advised that the only relevant topic for discussion was ‘…the performance of the onshore pipeline.’ How does the collective punishment of a community fit neatly into the performance of an onshore pipeline?

Shell representatives can of course put emotion on hold, they have no emotional input, interested only, and no one should be surprised at this, in profit margins. The state however, has a different set of priorities which must be upheld. The reckless disregard for the welfare of local people cannot be permitted.

If this catastrophic situation was beyond fixing or the project was completed then there might be grounds for discussing psychiatric intervention, mass counselling or any of the many therapeutic ways in which people pick up the pieces after traumatic times. But the project is not over, it is barely beginning, 26 months of tunneling lie ahead. Perhaps. Decisions are being made now which will guarantee the deepening of the negative symptoms described above, the damage to individuals and community will continue..

‘I’m willing to take some pain for this’ Willie Corduff has said, ‘I’ll hold the gate of my farm open for them’, with one significant caveat, ‘…it has to be done properly.’ And so far, it has been done anything but properly. What could drive Corduff and hundreds more like him to actively oppose the state, risking their lives and their freedom? The answer is incompetence and corruption, indifference, bribery and brutality. In deference to the developer’s dislike of the term ‘bribery’ I suggest an alternative description, ‘community liaison gift-bearing ambassadors of goodwill’; when a local employer asked one such goodwill ambassador how such an exchange might take place, he was told ‘we have facilitated others by delivering supplies at night.’

The local community has been forced into an intimate, long term relationship with the companies involved in this project. If you added up all the ailments and treated it as a single illness, a doctor would immediately order the patient to leave the abusive home and find refuge.

A temporary reprieve is still an immediate possibility.
Under the licensing terms for offshore oil and gas exploration, development and production, the Minister at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources may “for such period as the Minister deems necessary, require that specified exploration, exploitation, production or processing activities should cease… subject to conditions which the Minister may specify, in any case where the Minister is satisfied that it is desirable to do so in order to reduce the risk of injury to the person…no claim for compensation may be made against the Minister on foot of any such requirement.”

It seems obvious that the urgency of today lies not in approving yet another contentious component of a failed project but in reviewing the entire process so that the people of Kilcommon parish can have their lives back."

sligometalhead

Bosco boy wrote: »

Yes, when non local people come into an area just to cause trouble and leave the locals with the consequences.

Like Shell, the Gardai and IRMS?

Amhran Nua

Genuine question here, has anyone got a link to any geologists' reports or surveys done to indicate there may be hundreds of billions of anything out there? And I don't mean links to newspaper articles, I mean proper research and exploration documents.

Bosco boy

sligometalhead wrote: »

Like Shell, the Gardai and IRMS?

The gardai are up there since the formation of the state!

COYW

sligometalhead wrote: »

Shell do not have to sell this gas to us, they can sell to who they want at whatever price they want so it does nothing to secure our gas needs.

I presume you have proof of that. Anyway, as the last speaker said on the Prime Time documentary relating to this issue, "Gas will flow". That will be the final outcome of this saga.

Iorras55

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Genuine question here, has anyone got a link to any geologists' reports or surveys done to indicate there may be hundreds of billions of anything out there? And I don't mean links to newspaper articles, I mean proper research and exploration documents.

Plenty of geologists reports on the largest landslide in the history of the Irish State which occurred in 2003 in the exact same area as Shell is trying to build its massive tunnel - 4.2 metre diameter to house a 0.5 metre pipe!! Obviously there are plans afoot for about 40 more pipes of the same! Yes, the route of the proposed Corrib Gas pipeline lies in an area of heavily weathered and unstable schist which has landslides on a regular basis. There is also nothing in the bay to tunnel through. Shell 'specialist from Germany swears he can lay his massive tunnel in silt with no substrate.

http://www.gsi.ie/nr/rdonlyres/d7e643b5-624e-4cf3-86e1-68be0d1a36c7/0/gsi_pollatomish_landslide_report.pdf

Check out DCENR website Petroleum Division and also www.corribgaspipeline.ie - all official govt. websites - no media to work out whether you're reading the facts or otherwise - I think!!!! Just what can you trust these days?