Corrib gas, the truth is out

Iorras55

COYW wrote: »

I presume you have proof of that. Anyway, as the last speaker said on the Prime Time documentary relating to this issue, "Gas will flow". That will be the final outcome of this saga.

'Last speaker' your ar*se! Gas flowing from his mouth more like....... :rolleyes:

Amhran Nua

Iorras55 wrote: »

Plenty of geologists reports on the largest landslide in the history of the Irish State which occurred in 2003 in the exact same area as Shell is trying to build its massive tunnel - 4.2 metre diameter to house a 0.5 metre pipe!! Obviously there are plans afoot for about 40 more pipes of the same! Yes, the route of the proposed Corrib Gas pipeline lies in an area of heavily weathered and unstable schist which has landslides on a regular basis. There is also nothing in the bay to tunnel through. Shell 'specialist from Germany swears he can lay his massive tunnel in silt with no substrate.

http://www.gsi.ie/nr/rdonlyres/d7e643b5-624e-4cf3-86e1-68be0d1a36c7/0/gsi_pollatomish_landslide_report.pdf

Check out DCENR website Petroleum Division and also www.corribgaspipeline.ie - all official govt. websites - no media to work out whether you're reading the facts or otherwise - I think!!!! Just what can you trust these days?

While I appreciate that there are several issues around the gas reserves and their extraction, that's not what I asked. A lot of people are claiming there are hundreds of billions of euros worth of reserves hidden somehere there. Is there any support for this of the kind I requested?

MagicSean

Iorras55 wrote: »

I live here and to be absolutely honest I simply have no idea who you could be referring to. There is no 'guy from Wexford' that I have ever come across and the 'girl from Canada' has never been come across either! Anyone is welcome to come to this area and search for these two alleged reprobates if they wish. I'm absolutely positive that if such a pair exist, then they're not existing in the Shell affected area of Erris and nobody here would have the faintest idea who you are talking about. Thanks for the descriptions though - we'll be watching out for them!!;):o:confused:

Did you watch the documentary? The girl in the pub has a Canadian accent and the guy with the glasses said he moved up from Wexford. I think hd said Wexford anyway. He's not local that's for sure.

Bosco boy

Iorras55 wrote: »

'Last speaker' your ar*se! Gas flowing from his mouth more like....... :rolleyes:

I think a couple of valium tablets would deal with alot of the side effects you mentioned earlier!

prinz

Bosco boy wrote: »

I think a couple of valium tablets would deal with alot of the side effects you mentioned earlier!

Side effects me arse.

Iorras55

Amhran Nua wrote: »

While I appreciate that there are several issues around the gas reserves and their extraction, that's not what I asked. A lot of people are claiming there are hundreds of billions of euros worth of reserves hidden somehere there. Is there any support for this of the kind I requested?

Do you think they're going to tell? We need a Wikileaks from Ireland to make these reports public but there's a couple of clues emerging:-

Like this http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/article-display/3080741069/articles/offshore/drilling-completion/north-sea-northwest-europe-2/2010/11/serica-identifies.html

BRITISH exploration group Serica estimates that one of its licences in the Irish Sea could hold commercial quantities of natural gas. Chief executive Paul Ellis said yesterday that the Conan field in Irish waters could hold up to one billion cubic feet of natural gas.

Serica is exploring off both the west and east coasts. This year, it announced that it had found oil in the Slyne Basin off Mayo and close to the Corrib Field, which is operated by Shell and has reserves of one trillion cubic feet of gas.

EXPLORATION GROUP Providence Resources believes one of its licence areas off the west coast could produce up to 200 million barrels of oil.

The company said yesterday that following further analysis of data taken from its Spanish Point field in the Porcupine Basin off the west coast, it and its partners, Chrysaor and Sosina Exploration, now believe the field could produce commercial quantities of oil.

Providence believes that the reservoir there could contain up to 500 million barrels of oil and that up to 200 million barrels could be recovered from the field, which is 170km off the coast.

The company said up to 72,000 barrels a day could be produced once it reaches its peak. Yesterday’s announcement was based on an analysis of the results of these tests, which included information on the field that was not previously available.

The three partners are now planning to begin the next stage of exploring the field by drilling appraisal wells next year.

Commenting on the results, Providence chief executive Tony O’Reilly said the technical work had woken “the sleeping giant” that is Spanish Point.

“This is not only a significant event for Providence and its partners, but for the whole Irish offshore,” he said.IRISH oil and gas company Providence Resources said new interpretations of old data suggest that a field off the west coat of Ireland contains as much as 200 million barrels of oil and gas, which would make it as big as the Corrib find and twice as valuable.

Drilling about 170km off the coast and 400 metres deep will begin in 2012 at the explorer's Spanish Point project and oil and gas could begin flowing by late 2014 or 2015, Providence said yesterday.

Iorras55

k_mac wrote: »

Did you watch the documentary? The girl in the pub has a Canadian accent and the guy with the glasses said he moved up from Wexford. I think hd said Wexford anyway. He's not local that's for sure.

Oh, the documentary (see link further back in this thread) is where you got your info from? The girl (and she's in no pub - she's in the infamous Bellanaboy trailer) is a cousin of a large local family who was living here with her extended family doing research for a thesis on the issues. As for the character from Wexford - still havn't got a clue! As for their membership of Eirigi?????? where on earth did you get that from????

MagicSean

Iorras55 wrote: »

Oh, the documentary (see link further back in this thread) is where you got your info from? The girl (and she's in no pub - she's in the infamous Bellanaboy trailer) is a cousin of a large local family who was living here with her extended family doing research for a thesis on the issues. As for the character from Wexford - still havn't got a clue! As for their membership of Eirigi?????? where on earth did you get that from????

I never said they were with eirigi did I? I said they weren't locals.

Padraig Mor

Amhran Nua wrote: »

While I appreciate that there are several issues around the gas reserves and their extraction, that's not what I asked. A lot of people are claiming there are hundreds of billions of euros worth of reserves hidden somehere there. Is there any support for this of the kind I requested?

The '100s of billions' figures bandied about by the S2S criminals and assorted nutters are (wild) extrapolations from official government documents which estimate that there are potentially large reserves. However, these documents are essentially sales brochures used to try to attract exploration companies here (in the hope of striking it lucky) so are most certainly not neutral and present a 'best case' scenario. It's like saying you could win millions in the lotto - yes you could, but you probably won't! The truth of this is underlined by the fact that, despite the potential billions of reserves and the supposed 'great gas giveaway' conditions, exploration companies aren't exactly lining up to purchase licences - IIRC less than 10 companies have bothered their holes.

The_B_Man

So how does Ireland get money from all this, if/when it goes ahead?

Mark200

The_B_Man wrote: »

So how does Ireland get money from all this, if/when it goes ahead?

Haven't read the rest of the thread........ but presumably tax?

yosemite_sam

The_B_Man wrote: »

So how does Ireland get money from all this, if/when it goes ahead?

They should get VAT of the gas board I'd think, but that would be about it

prinz

yosemite_sam wrote: »

They should get VAT of the gas board I'd think, but that would be about it

As well as a 25% cut of profits. :rolleyes: Ever heard of a little thing called Corporation Tax?

Amhran Nua

Iorras55 wrote: »

Do you think they're going to tell? We need a Wikileaks from Ireland to make these reports public but there's a couple of clues emerging:-

Like this http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/article-display/3080741069/articles/offshore/drilling-completion/north-sea-northwest-europe-2/2010/11/serica-identifies.html

That link you provided does not contain the information you quoted. Can you clarify where you found the material you quoted?

Iorras55

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That link you provided does not contain the information you quoted. Can you clarify where you found the material you quoted?

Look here - start with the links I gave you and the DCENR website and do your own research. What do you think I am - your unpaid secretary? Where do you think I found the material I quoted - I found it on the internet same as you could do if you took the time to look!

For your information, I'm one of the unfortunate victims living within metres of this proposed extremely high pressure unodourised gas pipeline who has been harassed, beaten, scoffed at, invaded and tortured for the last ten years by every Tom, Dick and Harry out there who knows nothing and cares less so long as the fiscal issues are sorted out. There are so many stupid and inaccurate posts about how much the Government will get out of this - the answer is:- frig all - our politicians have raped us and will continue to do so unless we all pull together and expose the lot of them. And, if this beast were to be given the go-ahead from the Ministers and an Bord Pleanala, then I'll likely die along with the rest of the residents there when the extremely inclement weather which beats this areas regularly destroys the pipeline and its accoutrements and nobody from Shell will risk their lives to do anything about it. Will you be happy then?

If you lot continue to do nothing and defend the actions of Shell and our corrupt government, who knows, you and yours might well be next in line! Good luck to you. I won't be coming to your aid!

The Waltzing Consumer

Iorras55 wrote: »

"As a writer and researcher with 20 years experience living and working in Latin America I have witnessed many situations similar to the Corrib gas dispute where rural communities faced similar projects, similar harassment, similar violence and a similar deaf ear from the authorities…such situations are often referred to as a ‘situacion limite’, a crisis which brings the individual and the community to the very limit of their capacity to stay sane, focused and healthy. This type of campaign might last a week, a month, a year, rarely more, before breaking point and resolution, whether positive or negative. In Erris, this situation, which has men, women and children on the edge of a nervous breakdown, has been going on for 10 years, and there is no end in sight.

…. Panic attacks, sleeplessness, unease, anxiety about the present, fear of the future, disillusionment, disquiet, shattered assumptions, obsessional behavior, excessive personal sacrifice, lack of concentration, paranoia, headaches, backaches, edginess, irritability, endless tasks to be done, unprecedented stress, excessive demands on individuals, overwhelming sense of exhaustion, inability to function as normal, inability to make plans or take decisions, endless waiting, shock, depression, trauma, physical injury, nightmares, daymares, burnout, lack of appetite, stomach pain, nausea, rage, regret, helplessness, hopelessness, feeling numb, inner pain, emotional outbursts, hyper vigilance, muscle tension, flashbacks, fatigue, fear, self doubt, loss of trust in institutions, lack of faith in the future, negative thoughts, inability to focus on your own life and plans..

This is not a matter of guesswork or speculation. Dr Keith Swanick, a Belmullet-based medical professional, observed, ‘half the people I’m seeing now from Glengad are suffering from stress and worry.’

None of the symptoms described above feature in Shell’s EIS or EIA or in the government analysis of the project and rarely if ever in the mainstream media’s coverage of the conflict..the community is understandably reluctant to reveal these symptoms, lest they be seized upon as a sign of weakness or exhaustion which might be taken advantage of by their well resourced opponents.

Things have changed dramatically in Kilcommon parish, everyday life has been turned upside down and no one knows what to expect next, whether their life may be in danger or their freedom taken away in defense of a farm, a road, a field, a stretch of sand. Meanwhile, every minute counts with fresh hopes and fresh protests, pushing, shoving, arrest, bail, jail, isolation, then more research, presentation, legal issues, deadlines, submissions and setbacks ebbing and flowing like the high tide at full moon. And the symptoms start all over again..

snapshots
..A three year old child becomes hysterical at the sound of a hoover being switched on or a tractor starting up.. the panic began after she took fright at a police helicopter hovering low over the home of her grandfather, a prominent participant in the campaign. ..

..A son takes care of his mother but due to court order must take a massive detour to get her to the nearest medical facility for regular checkups..

..Farm work is undone as neighbours monitor commonage in case of trespass and then there is the aggravation of existing symptoms- a stroke in one case, high blood pressure for many others. Someone else described to me how he didn’t sleep for three days after the drilling rig pulled up in front of his home.

The cost and scale of the project is described by the company in a reverential tone, there will be millions, perhaps billions of Euro yet the true cost of the project, before any gas has been piped or bottled, is incalculable, its impact will stretch far into the future.. ”The last ten years feels like two hundred years” I heard a woman say.

The symptoms described above match those of post traumatic stress disorder, an illness associated with war and earthquakes, particularly common among soldiers returning from the battlefield. For the people of Kilcommon the past ten years has resembled life during wartime. The term ‘disorder’ is misleading as the symptoms are a normal response to an abnormal situation, common reactions to extraordinary experiences. An elderly local told me that ‘jail has become a normal consequence of protecting our families.’

This is the daily diet of despair which marks the experience of hundreds of people in Kilcommon parish, living in proximity to a project which remains unknown, alien, a type of outside occupation imposed and sustained by force. When a traumatic situation occurs in a school or workplace, the phrase ‘a team of counsellors’ is sure to follow.. in Erris, however, people are expected to fend for themselves, falling back on their own resources, their family and friends.. Add in the divisions among the community, in an area where each family is part of a broader network of relatives and friends bound tightly together within their parishes, and you have an emergency which requires an appropriate response.

Now you’re talking my language.. I lost count of the number of times I have heard this expression during this hearing..but whose language are we talking here? Apparently, the language of progress, development and economic growth. The local people speak another language, of respect for nature, of low impact living and of leaving behind an environment fit for future generations. The ABP inspector, Martin Nolan called for emotion to be set aside. ‘I don’t want to see any heated contributions’ he said, recommending instead ‘factual, measured representations.’ It would be great if every human emotion could be put on hold while this hearing and this project are under consideration but there is far too much at stake, people’s livelihoods, their wellbeing, their children’s futures.

This is a community which takes pride in mapping out local place names and restoring gravestones, maintaining connection between past, present and future. One graveyard yielded 333 graves, many of them on the verge of disappearing. This is how many local people feel about their locality as the project advances. A sense of familiar landscapes disappearing. Someone else described a stretch of beach they have always frequented, recalling every thistle plant and cowpat. This is the language of place, the language of identity, the language of home. In the solemn setting of a technical hearing, it sounds like a foreign language.

A sense of internal displacement has already taken root. One parent travels 45 minutes to avoid the beach overlooking his own home, unable to revisit it after aggressive surveillance aimed at his grandchildren. A doctor told one individual, suffering high blood pressure, to go away for a week or two until work near his home was completed.

On day two of the hearing people were advised that the only relevant topic for discussion was ‘…the performance of the onshore pipeline.’ How does the collective punishment of a community fit neatly into the performance of an onshore pipeline?

Shell representatives can of course put emotion on hold, they have no emotional input, interested only, and no one should be surprised at this, in profit margins. The state however, has a different set of priorities which must be upheld. The reckless disregard for the welfare of local people cannot be permitted.

If this catastrophic situation was beyond fixing or the project was completed then there might be grounds for discussing psychiatric intervention, mass counselling or any of the many therapeutic ways in which people pick up the pieces after traumatic times. But the project is not over, it is barely beginning, 26 months of tunneling lie ahead. Perhaps. Decisions are being made now which will guarantee the deepening of the negative symptoms described above, the damage to individuals and community will continue..

‘I’m willing to take some pain for this’ Willie Corduff has said, ‘I’ll hold the gate of my farm open for them’, with one significant caveat, ‘…it has to be done properly.’ And so far, it has been done anything but properly. What could drive Corduff and hundreds more like him to actively oppose the state, risking their lives and their freedom? The answer is incompetence and corruption, indifference, bribery and brutality. In deference to the developer’s dislike of the term ‘bribery’ I suggest an alternative description, ‘community liaison gift-bearing ambassadors of goodwill’; when a local employer asked one such goodwill ambassador how such an exchange might take place, he was told ‘we have facilitated others by delivering supplies at night.’

The local community has been forced into an intimate, long term relationship with the companies involved in this project. If you added up all the ailments and treated it as a single illness, a doctor would immediately order the patient to leave the abusive home and find refuge.

A temporary reprieve is still an immediate possibility.
Under the licensing terms for offshore oil and gas exploration, development and production, the Minister at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources may “for such period as the Minister deems necessary, require that specified exploration, exploitation, production or processing activities should cease… subject to conditions which the Minister may specify, in any case where the Minister is satisfied that it is desirable to do so in order to reduce the risk of injury to the person…no claim for compensation may be made against the Minister on foot of any such requirement.”

It seems obvious that the urgency of today lies not in approving yet another contentious component of a failed project but in reviewing the entire process so that the people of Kilcommon parish can have their lives back."

Do you have any links for any of this? Which quotes belong to who? Why post such a huge post without any backup or references? Any person could do that and be lying their asses off.

MagicSean

Iorras55 wrote: »

Look here - start with the links I gave you and the DCENR website and do your own research. What do you think I am - your unpaid secretary? Where do you think I found the material I quoted - I found it on the internet same as you could do if you took the time to look!

In all fairness you are the one making unsubstantiated claims so it is up to you to back them up

Iorras55 wrote: »

. There are so many stupid and inaccurate posts about how much the Government will get out of this - the answer is:- frig all -

We'll be getting much more than we would have if Shell hadnt arrived.

Iorras55 wrote: »

If you lot continue to do nothing and defend the actions of Shell and our corrupt government, who knows, you and yours might well be next in line! Good luck to you. I won't be coming to your aid!

Thats ok. Im sure i'll find someone to help me. There is plenty of people looking for any old cause to latch onto. Most of them are up in your area at the moment

prinz

Iorras55 wrote: »

.. I'll likely die along with the rest of the residents there when the extremely inclement weather which beats this areas regularly destroys the pipeline and its accoutrements and nobody from Shell will risk their lives to do anything about it. Will you be happy then?!

:pac: New low. Forget the Nigerian Delta, the deserts of North Africa and the Middle East, and the frozen landscapes of Alaska and Siberia. The technology of the world will be undone by the weather extremes in Mayo.

yosemite_sam

prinz wrote: »

As well as a 25% cut of profits. :rolleyes: Ever heard of a little thing called Corporation Tax?

I would not know what rate of corporation tax they will pay, I know that their past present and futuer development costs can be offset against any tax that is to pay. I believe you are wrong with you're 25% of profits, it would be great if you were right as that would equate to 165 billion euro in revenue if it was true. The terminal itself must have cost more than a 1 billion euro to develop as it stand with no gas or oil. They descovered oil this year so the field is under constant development

Mark200

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I would not know what rate of corporation tax they will pay, I know that their past present and futuer development costs can be offset against any tax that is to pay. I believe you are wrong with you're 25% of profits, it would be great if you were right as that would equate to 165 billion euro in revenue if it was true. The terminal itself must have cost more than a 1 billion euro to develop as it stand with no gas or oil. They descovered oil this year so the field is under constant development

Up to 40% tax. Although maybe you can make sense of the below wikipedia extract. Kind of confusing. Where did you get 25% being 165bn? (Genuine question).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrib_gas_project#Tax

Claims of a tax yield of some €1.7 billion over the life of the field have been made by the Irish government based on data about the field's size and 2008 gas prices.[18] Up to 2007, the Irish Petroleum Licensing Terms imposed a flat 25% income tax on gas production revenues. In August 2007, the top rate of tax on the most profitable fields was increased to 40%.[19][20] The new licensing terms called for changes to the tax imposed based upon fields ' profit ratios (equal to the rate of profit less 25% divided by the accumulated level of capital investment). Where this ratio is greater than 4.5, an additional 15% tax was imposed, where it is between 3.0 and 4.5 an additional 10% was imposed and where the profit ratio is between 1.5 and 3.0, and additional 5% tax was added. Less profitable fields were not affected.[19]

The claims that the Government should have ownership of the field is a bit silly really. The oil companies paid huge amounts, that the Government simply could not afford, to look for the oil and gas in the first place. They would not have done so if they wouldn't have the rights to extract it themselves.

marco_polo

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I would not know what rate of corporation tax they will pay, I know that their past present and futuer development costs can be offset against any tax that is to pay. I believe you are wrong with you're 25% of profits, it would be great if you were right as that would equate to 165 billion euro in revenue if it was true. The terminal itself must have cost more than a 1 billion euro to develop as it stand with no gas or oil. They descovered oil this year so the field is under constant development

Profit is what is left after exploration/operating costs so we get 25% of that. Unfortunately the actual value of the gas in the Corrib Field is estimated to be in the region of 10-14 billion depending on gas price levels, and operating cost are running at 2 billion already, it will be a boost for the exchequer but not a windfall by any means.

prinz

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I would not know what rate of corporation tax they will pay, I know that their past present and futuer development costs can be offset against any tax that is to pay. I believe you are wrong with you're 25% of profits, it would be great if you were right as that would equate to 165 billion euro in revenue if it was true.

There are two rates of Corporation Tax:
12.5% for trading income unless the income is from an excepted trade* in which case the rate is 25%* Excepted trades include certain land dealing activities, income from working minerals and petroleum activities

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/ct/index.html

It's 25%.

Of course development costs can be offset. It wouldn't be financially worthwhile to do exploratory drilling if it wasn't. I notice we're up to €660 Billion worth now too.

yosemite_sam

k_mac wrote: »

In all fairness you are the one making unsubstantiated claims so it is up to you to back them up



We'll be getting much more than we would have if Shell hadnt arrived.



Thats ok. Im sure i'll find someone to help me. There is plenty of people looking for any old cause to latch onto. Most of them are up in your area at the moment

I feel you are being unfair, I live in the area and it has been ruined by this project. I myself have been attacted whilst out over this project, people have concerns and thoses concerns are delt with by deploying two Navy destroyers, 400 Garda and a private army. I see many of my freinds making a lot of money from Shell but it does not make it right. The site in Glinsk was the site to use, it would be problem free job done

Amhran Nua

Iorras55 wrote: »

Look here - start with the links I gave you and the DCENR website and do your own research. What do you think I am - your unpaid secretary?

No offence was intended.

The text you quoted has nothing to do with the link you provided, which makes me somewhat suspicious that you were trying to pass off less credible information as being more credible by dint of being from a more credible source. This doesn't imply that you neccessarily did it on purpose, perhaps it was an accident. Can you identify the source for the text that you copied and pasted, please.

If on the other hand you are pursuing a grudge of some kind against Shell, and it might be understandable given their reputed corporate history, you would earn more respect around these parts by just coming out and saying as much. If on the other hand you don't want respect but rather converts, it would not appear we have much left to discuss.

Iorras55

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No offence was intended.

The text you quoted has nothing to do with the link you provided, which makes me somewhat suspicious that you were trying to pass off less credible information as being more credible by dint of being from a more credible source. This doesn't imply that you neccessarily did it on purpose, perhaps it was an accident. Can you identify the source for the text that you copied and pasted, please.

If on the other hand you are pursuing a grudge of some kind against Shell, and it might be understandable given their reputed corporate history, you would earn more respect around these parts by just coming out and saying as much. If on the other hand you don't want respect but rather converts, it would not appear we have much left to discuss.

I'm sorry. I did think I gave the correct link but honestly, I really don't have much interest in some aspects of this project, particularly how much profits Shell stand to make, how much the Irish Govt. stands to gain or not etc.... as I live too close to the potential disaster area for comfort, I have a lot more to worry about. However I'll try to check it out.:)

Addition: This is what I get from that link pasted below and that is what I intended to say: Here it is (just showing that Serica is interested as well as Providence or whatever O'Reilly's interest is called). Hope this gives you info, but I do admit, it's not really my thing!

"LONDON -- Serica Energy may drill two more prospects next year in its Slyne basin acreage off western Ireland.
The company operates license FEL 01/06, comprising blocks 27/4, 27/5 (west), and 27/9. They cover an area of 611 sq km (234 sq mi), and are around 40 km (24.8 mi) south of Shell’s offshore Corrib gas field development.

Last year Serica discovered sub-commercial oil with the Bandon exploration well 27/4-1. The company has since identified other potentially commercial oil prospects, and has acquired well-site survey data in preparation for wells in 2011 on one or both of the Boyne and Liffey prospects.

In Ireland’s offshore Rockall basin, Serica has a 100% interest in license FEL 1/09, comprising six blocks in the northeastern part of basin, and covering a total area of 993 sq km (383 sq mi).

Three exploratory wells have been drilled to date throughout the Rockall basin, which extends over 100,000 sq km (38,610 sq mi). Of these, Enterprise’s 12/2-1 Dooish gas-condensate discovery, 9 km (5.6 mi) south of Serica’s license, encountered a 214-m (702-ft) hydrocarbon column.

Recently Serica shot several new 2D long-offset seismic lines across Muckish, a large structure it had identified from existing 3D seismic, which covers 30 sq km (11.6 sq mi) in a water depth of 1,450 m (4,757 ft)."
http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/article-display/3080741069/articles/offshore/drilling-completion/north-sea-northwest-europe-2/2010/11/serica-identifies.html

MagicSean

How often do these pipelines explode? Is it a common occurrence for similar projects?

Iorras55

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Do you have any links for any of this? Which quotes belong to who? Why post such a huge post without any backup or references? Any person could do that and be lying their asses off.

Having to do a lot of apologising for posting without proper links. Sorry. This is a statement read out at the Corrib Gas Oral Hearing held in the Broadhaven Bay Hotel in Belmullet from August to October this year. It is an interesting and different perspective and I believe that it needs to be seen and heard more widely. I did not intend it to be my own opinion and I did not write it. It is not down to me to tell you who wrote it but it would be very simple matter for you to find out if you felt so inclined.

The Waltzing Consumer

Iorras55 wrote: »

Having to do a lot of apologising for posting without proper links. Sorry. This is a statement read out at the Corrib Gas Oral Hearing held in the Broadhaven Bay Hotel in Belmullet from August to October this year. It is an interesting and different perspective and I believe that it needs to be seen and heard more widely. I did not intend it to be my own opinion and I did not write it. It is not down to me to tell you who wrote it but it would be very simple matter for you to find out if you felt so inclined.

Okay, thanks for letting us know.

One question, it is an obvious one, but it has not really been answered. If Shell to Sea and other groups who oppose this gasline really have the full support of the community, or even a reasonable percentage of support, why have they not won any seats in local or national government? What's that about? Why are these communities electing the people and parties, who according to what you say, are pretty much terrorizing these communities?

It just does not make any sense to me, so would love to hear an actual answer from someone who lives there.

Augmerson

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Okay, thanks for letting us know.

One question, it is an obvious one, but it has not really been answered. If Shell to Sea and other groups who oppose this gasline really have the full support of the community, or even a reasonable percentage of support, why have they not won any seats in local or national government? What's that about? Why are these communities electing the people and parties, who according to what you say, are pretty much terrorizing these communities?

It just does not make any sense to me, so would love to hear an actual answer from someone who lives there.

Obvious answer being StS or other aligned groups have not put any candidates before the people? Sure when was the last GE, 06 or 07? Maybe it's not their strategy. I mean, I couldn't really see a campaign, for example "Campaign to Keep Navan Hospital Open" (not a real one just an example..) might campaign locally and such but what would be the point of someone from it winning a seat in local or national government?

Iorras55

k_mac wrote: »

How often do these pipelines explode? Is it a common occurrence for similar projects?

Very common (the problem is that there are no exactly similar pipelines - this pipeline has been found to have no counterparts elsewhere - it is experimental. Do you not see the documentaries made about them on a regular basis - TG4 and RTE2 feature them often and many gas pipeline explosions are reported on a regular basis in newspapers, on the internet etc... Most never reach news headlines but many have made headlines relatively recently: I'll try to list a few links here to some.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=226425
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/sep/10/fireball-gas-industry-scrutiny
http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2010/09/11/who-said-natural-gas-pipelines-are-safe-inquiry-sifting-cause-of-blast-in-the-bay-area/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20016115-10391695.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11014645
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/aug/22/shell-niger-delta-un-investigation
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/06/18/WhatHappenedBP/
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Texas-Gas-Explosion-One-Confirmed-Killed-In-Facility-In-Johnson-County-And-Eight-Injured/Article/201006115645404?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15645404_Texas_Gas_Explosion%3A_One_Confirmed_Killed_In_Facility_In_Johnson_County_And_Eight_Injured


I could keep on going but that will do you for starters! It happens - all the time!

The Waltzing Consumer

Augmerson wrote: »

Obvious answer being StS or other aligned groups have not put any candidates before the people? Sure when was the last GE, 06 or 07? Maybe it's not their strategy. I mean, I couldn't really see a campaign, for example "Campaign to Keep Navan Hospital Open" (not a real one just an example..) might campaign locally and such but what would be the point of someone from it winning a seat in local or national government?

Did you ask what the point is of a political group who wish to change things, running in a local or national election, where winners have the power to change things? I am even more confused.

StS are very close to other groups, People Before Profit, SWP etc., and they run in elections, win or lose.

Iorras55

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Okay, thanks for letting us know.

One question, it is an obvious one, but it has not really been answered. If Shell to Sea and other groups who oppose this gasline really have the full support of the community, or even a reasonable percentage of support, why have they not won any seats in local or national government? What's that about? Why are these communities electing the people and parties, who according to what you say, are pretty much terrorizing these communities?

It just does not make any sense to me, so would love to hear an actual answer from someone who lives there.

Did you never hear the expression "Power corrupts"? There are no elected "leaders" in the local community. Everybody speaks. Strange maybe but that's the way it is. There's not one 'spokesperson' - one day its one person, the next day somebody else. Nobody is willing to become corrupted or derives any satisfaction from the thought of joining in with the cronyism and dishonesty of the local representatives. Disgust with the corruption of the government and the working of the local council etc.... is, I think, what prevents, someone standing up and claiming to represent everybody! Does that answer your question? If you want to see it at work, make time to attend the next Oral Hearing into the problem and see how everybody speaks. Besides, it drives Shell mad - they can't get to grips with it at all!

The Waltzing Consumer

Iorras55 wrote: »

Did you never hear the expression "Power corrupts"? There are no elected "leaders" in the local community. Everybody speaks. Strange maybe but that's the way it is. There's not one 'spokesperson' - one day its one person, the next day somebody else. Nobody is willing to become corrupted or derives any satisfaction from the thought of joining in with the cronyism and dishonesty of the local representatives. Disgust with the corruption of the government and the working of the local council etc.... is, I think, what prevents, someone standing up and claiming to represent everybody! Does that answer your question? If you want to see it at work, make time to attend the next Oral Hearing into the problem and see how everybody speaks. Besides, it drives Shell mad - they can't get to grips with it at all!

It does not really answer my question. The way you are phrasing it sounds like these communities are unanimously avoiding elections, yet look at this link

http://electionsireland.org/results/local/council.cfm?election=2009L&area=263

This is the 2009 local elections info for all of Mayo. Not one area has a turnout of under 60%.

Which communities are you talking about when you say no one is taking part in the democratic electoral process? It is hard to understand your point when the stats are saying other wise.

Bosco boy

Iorras55 wrote: »

Did you never hear the expression "Power corrupts"? There are no elected "leaders" in the local community. Everybody speaks. Strange maybe but that's the way it is. There's not one 'spokesperson' - one day its one person, the next day somebody else. Nobody is willing to become corrupted or derives any satisfaction from the thought of joining in with the cronyism and dishonesty of the local representatives. Disgust with the corruption of the government and the working of the local council etc.... is, I think, what prevents, someone standing up and claiming to represent everybody! Does that answer your question? If you want to see it at work, make time to attend the next Oral Hearing into the problem and see how everybody speaks. Besides, it drives Shell mad - they can't get to grips with it at all!

You know you have little support and if you were to run a candidate you would have an exact figure on what support you have locally, if this was not the case you would have gone to the people long long ago!

Duncan31

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

It does not really answer my question. The way you are phrasing it sounds like these communities are unanimously avoiding elections, yet look at this link

http://electionsireland.org/results/local/council.cfm?election=2009L&area=263

This is the 2009 local elections info for all of Mayo. Not one area has a turnout of under 60%.

Which communities are you talking about when you say no one is taking part in the democratic electoral process? It is hard to understand your point when the stats are saying other wise.

Im local and I will answer your question in a straight forward manner.
The simple answer is that Shell to sea have only tiny support in this area. Certainly less than 1% of all erris people at this stage. They perhaps had marginally better support at the beginning but for numerous reasons that has dropped away. Typical reasons - evidence of Sinn fein highjacking the protest for their own gain, too many 'rent a mob' blow-ins taking over and on the other side of the coin, the realisation that Shell jobs are the only show in town so better get as much as possible from this development financially.
You raise an interesting point about these people running for election. You might note that Dr Gerry Cowley, a sitting TD at the time became the public face of the protest and really got into it, pretty much being at the forefront of all televised protests and speaking on behalf of the shell to sea group. HE really did nail his colours to the mast. Unfortunitely for Dr Cowley (who had been a good vote getter in previous elections) his vote disappeared and he lost his dail seat and if I remember correctly he got literally only a handful of votes from the rossport box when counted. It does say an awful lot about the true support that Shell to sea have when this well known and well liked TD lost his seat.
To think that any of these shell to sea protestors would have any hope in any form of election is pretty laughable. I would love to see them put themselves forward though.

Iorras55

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

It does not really answer my question. The way you are phrasing it sounds like these communities are unanimously avoiding elections, yet look at this link

http://electionsireland.org/results/local/council.cfm?election=2009L&area=263

This is the 2009 local elections info for all of Mayo. Not one area has a turnout of under 60%.

Which communities are you talking about when you say no one is taking part in the democratic electoral process? It is hard to understand your point when the stats are saying other wise.

Never said we didn't vote! Of course most of us vote - nothing to be gained by not voting in my opinion - but we don't get together in a little posse and all make an agreement to vote en bloc. Its not that hard to vote in the area - there would probably be several politicians who would probably get virtually no votes at all and if certain parties (ie Greens) put up 'ridiculous' candidates then they can expect no votes. Despite media lies to the contrary Jerry Cowley topped the poll in the local polling station in the last general election. What I'm saying is we don't give or receive orders about what way to cast our votes - free to make up our own minds. Same as when making submissions to the oral hearings - everybody is free to say what they want how they want. Is that too difficult to understand?

Duncan31 is undoubtedly not that local. Many of his ilk from Belmullet (18+ kms distant) and Ballina (80 kms distant) and further afield often try to masquerade as 'local' to derail the actual locals who stand to be affected by the project. Lots of people like him hang about with their grubby hands out for 'compensation' they're not entitled to. Local people don't have a problem with local people who get some temporary work at the sites but these temporary jobs are non-existent now and will be spartan in the future. And he obviously hasn't heard of or read the Frontline Report by eminent barrister Brian Barrington or he wouldn't be restating the disproven lies he has.
http://www.frontlinedefenders.org/files/en/corrib_gas_report.pdf

Bosco boy

Iorras55 wrote: »

Never said we didn't vote! Of course most of us vote - nothing to be gained by not voting in my opinion - but we don't get together in a little posse and all make an agreement to vote en bloc. Its not that hard to vote in the area - there would probably be several politicians who would probably get virtually no votes at all and if certain parties (ie Greens) put up 'ridiculous' candidates then they can expect no votes. Despite media lies to the contrary Jerry Cowley topped the poll in the local polling station in the last general election. What I'm saying is we don't give or receive orders about what way to cast our votes - free to make up our own minds. Same as when making submissions to the oral hearings - everybody is free to say what they want how they want. Is that too difficult to understand?

Duncan31 is undoubtedly not that local. Many of his ilk from Belmullet (18+ kms distant) and Ballina (80 kms distant) and further afield often try to masquerade as 'local' to derail the actual locals who stand to be affected by the project. Lots of people like him hang about with their grubby hands out for 'compensation' they're not entitled to. Local people don't have a problem with local people who get some temporary work at the sites but these temporary jobs are non-existent now and will be spartan in the future. And he obviously hasn't heard of or read the Frontline Report by eminent barrister Brian Barrington or he wouldn't be restating the disproven lies he has.
http://www.frontlinedefenders.org/files/en/corrib_gas_report.pdf

I've a feeling that Duncan is more local than Gerry Cowley, the wexford woman, the distant cousin from Canada, the crusties from the UK and eirigi and maybe even yourself !!!!

sligometalhead

Bosco boy wrote: »

The gardai are up there since the formation of the state!

The Gardai cracking skulls alongside IRMS mercenaries for Shell are outsiders.

sligometalhead

Bosco boy wrote: »

I've a feeling that Duncan is more local than Gerry Cowley, the wexford woman, the distant cousin from Canada, the crusties from the UK and eirigi and maybe even yourself !!!!

Do you think are the fascist terrorists working for IRMS as security for Shell whom the Gardai worked with hand in hand in Erris more local than those people?

Does that not concern you?

Gazton

sligometalhead wrote: »

Do you think are the fascist terrorists working for IRMS as security for Shell whom the Gardai worked with hand in hand in Erris more local than those people?

And the award for "Most Confusing Sentence, 2010" goes to...

Bosco boy

sligometalhead wrote: »

Do you think are the fascist terrorists working for IRMS as security for Shell whom the Gardai worked with hand in hand in Erris more local than those people?

Does that not concern you?

I'd be more concerned with Eirigi, I know they exist!

Nonoperational

Jesus are these crackpots still about? I'd almost forgotten about their crazy crusade...

Iorras55

sligometalhead wrote: »

Do you think are the fascist terrorists working for IRMS as security for Shell whom the Gardai worked with hand in hand in Erris more local than those people?

Does that not concern you?

This is a couple of them (IRMS thugs)

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/oct2009/indy1_3.jpg

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/apr2009/mike_dwyer_working_for_irms.jpg:-

MagicSean

Iorras55 wrote: »

This is a couple of them (IRMS thugs)

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/oct2009/indy1_3.jpg

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/apr2009/mike_dwyer_working_for_irms.jpg:-

The ones trying to sabotage the machines or the ones trying to stop them?

The Waltzing Consumer

Iorras55 wrote: »

Never said we didn't vote! Of course most of us vote - nothing to be gained by not voting in my opinion - but we don't get together in a little posse and all make an agreement to vote en bloc. Its not that hard to vote in the area - there would probably be several politicians who would probably get virtually no votes at all and if certain parties (ie Greens) put up 'ridiculous' candidates then they can expect no votes. Despite media lies to the contrary Jerry Cowley topped the poll in the local polling station in the last general election. What I'm saying is we don't give or receive orders about what way to cast our votes - free to make up our own minds. Same as when making submissions to the oral hearings - everybody is free to say what they want how they want. Is that too difficult to understand?

Well yes it is very hard to understand. You speak of these communities disdain to join in the cronyism and corrupt nature of local or national politics, you speak like the community is vastly of the same opinion of you, yet they do not put candidates up for election because "power corrupts", but this is the weird part, the majority of people vote, and vote for the same groups, FF FG etc., that implement policies you say the community rallies against.

But you guys did involve yourselves with "power" with Jerry Cowley, a sitting TD, who supported Shell to Sea, and was beaten badly in 2007 general election.

Oh and the 2007 results. http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172

Jerry Cowley got just over 3400 votes which represents 4.7% of people in Mayo. Does not sound like he topped any poll.

So I hope you can see my confusion when you say certain things but they do not add up at all. It looks like your group or people who are anti-Shell do involve themselves in politics, Jerry Cowley for instance who was a TD, and then get wiped out in the 2007 elections.

It sounds mightily like "we got beaten badly in elections, have no significant local support" has turned into "power corrupts, we don't run in elections, it's all corrupt anyway". Can you explain this double standard? Why pretend to ignore the democratic process when you have engaged in it? Is it just because you have very little support and won't win?

Is mise le key

OK firstly lets just say that all that has gone before us to this point is forgotten, do you not think it would be wise now to have the Gas solely for the benefit of the Irish nation now seeing as we are snookered by the IMF/ECB?

Secondly do i not have the right to disagree with this & go & protest in mayo if i want regardless of where i am from or live in this country, forgive me for jumping the gun & assuming we are irish & have the freedom of our country if your answer is no.

MagicSean

Is mise le key wrote: »

OK firstly lets just say that all that has gone before us to this point is forgotten, do you not think it would be wise now to have the Gas solely for the benefit of the Irish nation now seeing as we are snookered by the IMF/ECB?

No. I think it would be better to make money from it.

Is mise le key wrote: »

Secondly do i not have the right to disagree with this & go & protest in mayo if i want regardless of where i am from or live in this country, forgive me for jumping the gun & assuming we are irish & have the freedom of our country if your answer is no.

You are entitled to protest. But don't try and claim you are supporting the locals when there is probably as many of them for the pipe as against it.

Is mise le key

k_mac wrote: »

No. I think it would be better to make money from it.

What percentage are we going to make from it as things stand?

k_mac wrote: »

You are entitled to protest. But don't try and claim you are supporting the locals when there is probably as many of them for the pipe as against it.

When did i ever mention the locals?

I simply highlighted to you that i am free to oppose this if i want regardless if every local in the vicinity was going around with Shell T-Shirts, Baseball caps & mini flags from their cars & i am free to oppose it in Mayo if i want.

Iorras55

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Well yes it is very hard to understand. You speak of these communities disdain to join in the cronyism and corrupt nature of local or national politics, you speak like the community is vastly of the same opinion of you, yet they do not put candidates up for election because "power corrupts", but this is the weird part, the majority of people vote, and vote for the same groups, FF FG etc., that implement policies you say the community rallies against.

But you guys did involve yourselves with "power" with Jerry Cowley, a sitting TD, who supported Shell to Sea, and was beaten badly in 2007 general election.

Oh and the 2007 results. http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172

Jerry Cowley got just over 3400 votes which represents 4.7% of people in Mayo. Does not sound like he topped any poll.

So I hope you can see my confusion when you say certain things but they do not add up at all. It looks like your group or people who are anti-Shell do involve themselves in politics, Jerry Cowley for instance who was a TD, and then get wiped out in the 2007 elections.

It sounds mightily like "we got beaten badly in elections, have no significant local support" has turned into "power corrupts, we don't run in elections, it's all corrupt anyway". Can you explain this double standard? Why pretend to ignore the democratic process when you have engaged in it? Is it just because you have very little support and won't win?

Some of these links below might help you to understand. They word it better than I ever can. I'm afraid that we constantly struggle against the like of 'Duncan31' who constantly try to derail the facts. If you really want to find out the truth come and visit the area - one of the most beautiful in the whole of Ireland and supposedly highly protected by EU legislation to protect vulnerable and sensitive areas - despite the best attempts by Shell so far. Its not too late to save it yet. But, like others, including obviously the detractors here, try not to get your information directly from the mouths of the perpetrators.

"Letter of reply to Irish Times -
Madam, - Brendan Cafferty's article arguing that the general election result shows that the Shell to Sea campaign has lost the argument over Corrib gas is flawed on a number of grounds (Opinion & Analysis, July 4th). Firstly, the Erris Peninsula is one of the least populated areas in the country and consequently has very little electoral clout. No doubt the latter point would have been a key consideration in choosing it as the location for the proposed on-shore refinery in an effort to minimise any political backlash. Secondly, Dr Jerry Cowley (who opposes the onshore refinery) topped the poll in Pollathomas, the polling station nearest the site of the refinery, and increased his vote 20-fold in the Rossport area. He received a very large vote in Erris generally, substantially greater when he was previously elected. With hindsight, perhaps he should have concentrated his electoral efforts in the urban centres of Mayo but he put his commitment to the rural Erris community ahead of his own political career - the very definition of political integrity. Nevertheless, the election did produce some very positive results for the Shell to Sea Campaign, with the Green Party, which has to date opposed the current Shell refinery plans, taking office. The Greens have previously sought an independent review of the entire project - something Mr Cafferty finds "unthinkable". It will be interesting to see if the Greens honour their previous commitments or yield to Mr Cafferty's view. It is telling that Mr Cafferty lives 56km from the proposed refinery site. From this comfortable distance he will not be directly affected by gas-flaring or any potential air and water pollution. Well, then, may he ask: "What is it all about?" - Yours etc. ."

Posted Date: Thu, 05/07/2007 - 19:14

The Mayo-based Connaught Telegraph weekly newspaper ran an on-line poll in September 2010, during the last Oral Hearing on the Corrib gas pipeline project
http://www.con-telegraph.ie/index.php?option=com_poll&id=26:corrib-gas-pipeline-are-you-in-favour

Public Opinion and Corrib Gas Poll results
http://www.shelltosea.com/node/1715

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=671&Itemid=38

The Waltzing Consumer

Iorras55 wrote: »

Some of these links below might help you to understand. They word it better than I ever can. I'm afraid that we constantly struggle against the like of 'Duncan31' who constantly try to derail the facts. If you really want to find out the truth come and visit the area - one of the most beautiful in the whole of Ireland and supposedly highly protected by EU legislation to protect vulnerable and sensitive areas - despite the best attempts by Shell so far. Its not too late to save it yet. But, like others, including obviously the detractors here, try not to get your information directly from the mouths of the perpetrators.

"Letter of reply to Irish Times -
Madam, - Brendan Cafferty's article arguing that the general election result shows that the Shell to Sea campaign has lost the argument over Corrib gas is flawed on a number of grounds (Opinion & Analysis, July 4th). Firstly, the Erris Peninsula is one of the least populated areas in the country and consequently has very little electoral clout. No doubt the latter point would have been a key consideration in choosing it as the location for the proposed on-shore refinery in an effort to minimise any political backlash. Secondly, Dr Jerry Cowley (who opposes the onshore refinery) topped the poll in Pollathomas, the polling station nearest the site of the refinery, and increased his vote 20-fold in the Rossport area. He received a very large vote in Erris generally, substantially greater when he was previously elected. With hindsight, perhaps he should have concentrated his electoral efforts in the urban centres of Mayo but he put his commitment to the rural Erris community ahead of his own political career - the very definition of political integrity. Nevertheless, the election did produce some very positive results for the Shell to Sea Campaign, with the Green Party, which has to date opposed the current Shell refinery plans, taking office. The Greens have previously sought an independent review of the entire project - something Mr Cafferty finds "unthinkable". It will be interesting to see if the Greens honour their previous commitments or yield to Mr Cafferty's view. It is telling that Mr Cafferty lives 56km from the proposed refinery site. From this comfortable distance he will not be directly affected by gas-flaring or any potential air and water pollution. Well, then, may he ask: "What is it all about?" - Yours etc. ."

Posted Date: Thu, 05/07/2007 - 19:14

The Mayo-based Connaught Telegraph weekly newspaper ran an on-line poll in September 2010, during the last Oral Hearing on the Corrib gas pipeline project
http://www.con-telegraph.ie/index.php?option=com_poll&id=26:corrib-gas-pipeline-are-you-in-favour

Public Opinion and Corrib Gas Poll results
http://www.shelltosea.com/node/1715

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=671&Itemid=38

Okay, please don't use online polls where any user can refresh a page and vote as many times as they want, as evidence of support for anything, that is ridiculous and the weakest argument I have seen on this thread yet.

Secondly, I read that letter. The person argues that parts of Mayo are sparsely populated and has little electoral clout. So in other words, don't read too much into voting in these areas. Yet in the very next part they use the results from some of these sparsely populated areas to champion Cowley. A bit hypocritical? Which one is it?

He got a lot of votes locally, so that is great, but got wiped out overall, so ignore that part, that means nothing.

Okay, I am getting pretty fed up with debating with you, no offense, you just keep moving the goalposts. You say one thing, I find something which proves otherwise, you bring up something else, I again find something to challenge that, you again move on to something else, again I find something to challenge that, you move on etc..

This is how I would imagine debating FF would be like. So thanks, you have been no help at all and I resent you keep referring to prepared arguements crafted by Shell to Sea rather than your own personal views which I was looking for aswell.