Soccer forum. Re: Economist thread.

leninbenjamin

Sully wrote: »

Since I left last night, I read from my last post to this point. I really cant help getting the feeling that this was done simply because it was GuanYin. There should be absolutely no reason why Boards.ie Admins/Founders should get involved when someone (a boards.ie user or whatever) is given abuse on another website, regardless if they use the Boards name or not. Its not against the site rules, its not something that was done on this site and you should not and can not police the internet which is effectively what has started since you stepped in and acknowledged GYs silent request. Even the admins are stepping on each others toes trying to explain why they stepped in - there seems to be no clear signal and different reasons given. What happens offsite, stays offsite. End off.

If this was about protecting the site, a request to remove the name would have been fine. It was clear that even a mod from Boards had a few grumbles off site about GY but isnt banned from anywhere. There have been previous cases where the Boards.ie name was brought into the negative spotlight by a former mod and nothing was done. No bans were issued etc. even though it was common knowledge about what was being said. Why then, step in and help out GY?

Btw, I don't think this thread should be brought into a "Whats wrong with GY and the Soccer Forum". That's not going to get us anywhere and is not what this topic is about. It might begin with GY but its a much bigger issue that has deeper consequences that a halt really should be put against.

at the same time, online bullying is a serious thing and GY gets more than her fair share. While i don't agree with the action taken, i think it's right that the admins decided to respond. All the abuse she gets stems directly from her role on this site and it's right steps should be taken to protect here and her fellow mods.

but the steps need to be thought through a bit more imo.

javaboy

seamus wrote: »

I don't think there's any precedent here. We have *always* felt it as a duty to protect moderators from receiving abuse simply because of the time which they volunteer on this site. You can dislike someone, you can argue with them, and most moderators will shrug off most direct abuse. But any sustained or malicious attack on a moderator, because of their moderation, will result in action being taken by us. This has always been the case, and will continue to be the case. We've just never had to apply it to off-site abuse before, but we never gave the illusion that the abuse had to be limited to boards.ie.

Again there are mixed signals about whether this protection applies to all Boards members or just moderators. If it applies to both, then in the interest of clarity, the references to moderators should be left out imo.

Btw I know it's not setting a precedent so the above might seem like nit picking but if it's being argued as the reason to apply a ban then it effectively is setting a precedent because otherwise there is a lack of consistency.

seamus wrote: »

But to be fair Boston, we never once said, "We are going to decide this and to hell with the lot of ye". We made it very clear that the floor would be open for discussion once we had decided exactly what it is we wanted to come out of the whole thing. There's never been any lack of transparency, just a delay in hosting the discussion.

I'm generally one of the least cynical people around here re Boards but the bolded sentence above reminds me of this:


I know it was a bank holiday and nobody wanted to be sat babysitting a controversial feedback thread while the sun was beating down but when has that ever delayed feedback before? And I know that the issue isn't black and white and needed a quorum from the admins but when has that ever delayed feedback before? I don't see what great ill could have come from leaving the discussion to run. To be honest I thought there was some legal or much more serious thing entwined with this.

What is the point of Feedback if we're only allowed use it once the admins have already decided exactly what they want to happen?

---

EDIT: Just to clarify that I don't for a second support Helix. I don't feel sorry for him in the slightest. I just find the whole thing a little troubling. On the one hand, we've heard that this applies to all members, then we've heard it applies to mods. Also some admins have said it's a precedent and some have said it's not.

I know we don't do precedents and set in stone rules around here and I understand why. Nobody wants to get hit over the head with some loophole in a rule they wrote and I'm glad we don't entertain that. It's a private site at the end of the day and the admins aren't bound by the rules they wrote yesterday. That would sound dangerous if we were talking about real life law but we're not and I don't think the admins have ever abused that.

But I think it's impossible not to set precedents in a way. In order to have consistency, this effectively must set a precedent. Also I think it's naive to think this issue won't arise again. If nothing else some smartarse is going to force the issue just to test your patience.

_blank_

DeVore wrote: »

I think Helix was being a dick somewhere he thought was "safe" and then found out that no, we arent just going to sit here and let you throw stones at people who help here. Certainly not abusive vitriolic and personal stones.

Its the equivalent of sticking their tongues out and wiggling their fingers from the "safe" porch.

We're not setting "precedent" because this isnt a court of law. We're not breaking "rules" because we dont have a rulebook. The legalistic argument of "I didnt really write I was only quoting someone else" is a pile of rules-lawyering bollocks and isn't going to wash with me.

It was abusive bullying and no, I don't think we should stand for it. Do you?

DeV.

DeV, fair enough.

BUT

Why is the ban Soccer-specific?

DeVore

I wouldnt see it as Soccer-specific personally... what makes you think it is?

DeV.

_blank_

DeVore wrote: »

I wouldnt see it as Soccer-specific personally... what makes you think it is?

DeV.

Because Helix is perma-banned from The Soccer forum, specifically.

And not the rest of Boards.

sceptre

javaboy wrote: »

I'm generally one of the least cynical people around here re Boards but the bolded sentence above reminds me of this:


I know it was a bank holiday and nobody wanted to be sat babysitting a controversial feedback thread while the sun was beating down but when has that ever delayed feedback before? And I know that the issue isn't black and white and needed a quorum from the admins but when has that ever delayed feedback before? I don't see what great ill could have come from leaving the discussion to run. To be honest I thought there was some legal or much more serious thing entwined with this.

What is the point of Feedback if we're only allowed use it once the admins have already decided exactly what they want to happen?

I think you're misinterpreting that line. I noticed that line too and while my initial thought was "what?!", being on the inside of the tent, so to speak, I was able to realise that what was meant there was having a reasonable frame of reference for discussion. I'm not putting words in seamus' mouth but while I can completely see how you might interpret that as "let's take all your suggestions and comments and bin them because they're not important", that's in no way what was meant there.

_blank_

javaboy wrote: »

What is the point of Feedback if we're only allowed use it once the admins have already decided exactly what they want to happen?

.

The Sweeper

Yep, it's not that we'd decided 'precisely what we wanted to happen' - but we needed to have something of a consensus among ourselves first - did we think it was an issue, did we think we needed to do something about it, what sort of something, so on. Consensus can always change.

Sully

DeVore wrote: »

I think Helix was being a dick somewhere he thought was "safe" and then found out that no, we arent just going to sit here and let you throw stones at people who help here. Certainly not abusive vitriolic and personal stones.

Its the equivalent of sticking their tongues out and wiggling their fingers from the "safe" porch.

We're not setting "precedent" because this isnt a court of law. We're not breaking "rules" because we dont have a rulebook. The legalistic argument of "I didnt really write I was only quoting someone else" is a pile of rules-lawyering bollocks and isn't going to wash with me.

It was abusive bullying and no, I don't think we should stand for it. Do you?

DeV.

I agree with the bulk of your post and no we should not stand for bullying. BUT. What happens off site is simply out of our control and we cant wrap people up in bubble wrap to protect them from shots from other sites. Boards should look after what happens here, not what happens off site. By protecting GY and banning those who insult her off site (not all but some) your setting a precedent that you cant discuss what you like about who you like from Boards.ie on another site, if you do, expect to be booted if we disagree. This whole codswallop that "It will depend on the circumstances" seems a bit "iffy" to me and doesnt help things.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

at the same time, online bullying is a serious thing and GY gets more than her fair share. While i don't agree with the action taken, i think it's right that the admins decided to respond. All the abuse she gets stems directly from her role on this site and it's right steps should be taken to protect here and her fellow mods.

but the steps need to be thought through a bit more imo.

Its slightly odd that out of every forum and Boards.ie mod, GY is the "hot topic". At times, I can see why. I'm against bullying of any kind and do think its horrible that people go around poking fun on/off site. However, I really dont think its fair game for Admins to step in and kick people off because they made a hurtful comment about a mod on another site. Thats what I disagree with the most.

Sully

green123 wrote: »

.

That has nothing to do with this thread. Its bad enough that she is subject to abuse in general, regardless, but the last direction this thread needs to go in is questioning the poor girl in general. Its not what the topic is about.

green123

Sully wrote: »

Its slightly odd that out of every forum and Boards.ie mod, GY is the "hot topic".
.

exactly.

people seem to be missing this point.
no other mod cause so much trouble.
no other mod is hated as much as she is.

can you people not see that she is the problem ?

_blank_

Sully wrote: »

That has nothing to do with this thread. Its bad enough that she is subject to abuse in general, regardless, but the last direction this thread needs to go in is questioning the poor girl in general. Its not what the topic is about.

Agreed.

_blank_

green123 wrote: »

no other mod is hated as much as she is.

This is bollox, imo.

The Sweeper

green123 wrote: »

exactly.

people seem to be missing this point.
no other mod cause so much trouble.
no other mod is hated as much as she is.

can you people not see that she is the problem ?

Can't you see that that isn't the topic of this discussion?

Don't bring it up again on this thread.

Daysha

Trojan wrote: »

The reason Helix is permabanned is not his actions on another forum. It's his refusal to acknowledge any fault or blame whatsoever

I nearly spat out my coffee when I read that.

Are the Admins actually saying that they changed his status from a temp ban to a perm ban purely on his refusal to agree with the stance you guys are taking on this?!

:eek: shock horror! Whats the percentage of moderations here where the said user actually agrees with the decision of the mod?! And since when has it been boards.ie policy to increase the ban of a member if they fail to admit responsibility for their actions?

If I was modded for something and I really believe I did nothing wrong, you can be damn sure I'm going to say so. And I would never allow admins or mods to pressurising me into changing my stance on it if I really believe what I felt.

So now because Helix actually had the guts to continue to say what he believed was right (however farfetched it may be), he has found himself permanently banned from a forum he frequently posts in.

That is a shocking decision imo.

Sully

green123 wrote: »

exactly.

people seem to be missing this point.
no other mod cause so much trouble.
no other mod is hated as much as she is.

can you people not see that she is the problem ?

Ill only say it one more time. This is not the place for a discussion on GYs modding abilities. Lets try keep the topic "on topic" before it gets locked on us.

The Recliner

green123 wrote: »

exactly.

people seem to be missing this point.
no other mod cause so much trouble.
no other mod is hated as much as she is.

can you people not see that she is the problem ?

Very strong words and very unfair

There are a few people on Boards who hate me and they are entitled to that

Personally I have nothing but love for GaunYin

DeVore

Of course it depends on the circumstances. Every decision depends on its circumstances. If you are all looking for the security of "rules" then you wouldnt last 5 seconds as an admin here. We have to make decisions on situations that no one has faced before as we have fnck all time or basis on which to make them. And we have to make them all the time. To quote Pratchett, there is no justice, there's just us.

Did Helix deserve a virtual smack in the mouth? Yeah, yeah he did.

What does that mean for the future of boards, I dunno. We can talk through it here. But I'm happier we kicked him out of soccer as a finger-wag then just turn a blind eye to it. Thats my gut feeling. I'm not going to post-rationalise it with "rules" or "precedents". Its right or its wrong.

DeV.

Ludo

After reading all this thread this morning, I can honestly say that I am unclear exactly WHY Helix has been perm banned from soccer. I can understand and see some reasons why he possibly should be, BUT there has been no official reason given for it from what I saw (or multiple conflicting reasons possibly).

Which was it:

- abusing boards mod on another forum.
- bullying a mod (then why is it only a soccer forum ban)
- not acknowledging his wrong doing (bans get extended for this???)

Until I can see the actual official reason then I would hold off on a firm decision on whether it is the correct punishment or not.

javaboy

sceptre wrote: »

I think you're misinterpreting that line. I noticed that line too and while my initial thought was "what?!", being on the inside of the tent, so to speak, I was able to realise that what was meant there was having a reasonable frame of reference for discussion. I'm not putting words in seamus' mouth but while I can completely see how you might interpret that as "let's take all your suggestions and comments and bin them because they're not important", that's in no way what was meant there.

Glad to hear it. I'd hoped that was the case. Still a great cartoon though.

seamus

As MAJD says javaboy, I was hoping that my line wouldn't be misinterpreted.

Yes, we are going to say, "This is what we want to happen". But what we want and what we get are very often two different things. If I meant that we were going to decide and ignore suggestion, then my actual line would have been, "once we had decided exactly what it is that was to come out of the whole thing". OK, it's subtle, but that's what I meant.

Basically as MAJD says, coming up with a consensus and then going to the community and asking, "What do you think of this?".

copacetic

DeVore wrote: »

Of course it depends on the circumstances. Every decision depends on its circumstances. If you are all looking for the security of "rules" then you wouldnt last 5 seconds as an admin here. We have to make decisions on situations that no one has faced before as we have fnck all time or basis on which to make them. And we have to make them all the time. To quote Pratchett, there is no justice, there's just us.

Did Helix deserve a virtual smack in the mouth? Yeah, yeah he did.

What does that mean for the future of boards, I dunno. We can talk through it here. But I'm happier we kicked him out of soccer as a finger-wag then just turn a blind eye to it. Thats my gut feeling. I'm not going to post-rationalise it with "rules" or "precedents". Its right or its wrong.

DeV.

weird, when I clicked quote this post said something else which I was going to query. hmmmm.

seamus wrote: »

Basically as MAJD says, coming up with a consensus and then going to the community and asking, "What do you think of this?".

I understand this and it seems like a reasonable approach, however the reasoning and consensus seems to be not quite there imo. Everyone seems to have different opinions on why the ban was made perma for instance, and based purely on the timeline Helix put up here some of the reasons given simply don't add up.

Spud83

Unfortunantly nothing has been done to stop the "finger" wagging, especially as it is a perma-ban. The way I see it Helix now has no reason to stop the bullying/abuse/finger wagging whatever you want to call it as he seemingly has no hope of getting accessed restored to the soccer forum.

So instead of trying to solve the problem, I fear the admins may have inflamed the situation, in effort to hit back harder than Helix.

_blank_

And now we have the Admin saying that they told him he was wrong, he disagreed, so now he's permanently banned from Soccer.

That, I feel, is wrong.

It sends out a message of "We'll decide you are wrong, if you don't apologise we will make the punishment worse".

That is wrong.

Wrong in all kind of ways.

_blank_

Also, the inflamatory tones of some of the Admin should be seriously reviewed.

DeVore

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Unfortunantly nothing has been done to stop the "finger" wagging, especially as it is a perma-ban. The way I see it Helix now has no reason to stop the bullying/abuse/finger wagging whatever you want to call it as he seemingly has no hope of getting accessed restored to the soccer forum.

So instead of trying to solve the problem, I fear the admins may have inflamed the situation, in effort to hit back harder than Helix.

Helix can sit on xpert11 writing diatribes against all of us for all I care. Its not like there arent enough people out there who hate me already.

But what he wont get is access to the community GY helped create while abusing her from a distance. I dont see why I should ask any mod to accept that. Do you?

The problem is that Helix also has shown complete contempt for us and refuses to acknowledge that anything he has done is in any way out of line. Frankly, there is no point allowing him to return if the next day we're going to have to ban him again if he repeats this sort of thing. This is far from the first time we have taken that stance too by the way.

DeV.

seamus

copacetic wrote: »

I understand this and it seems like a reasonable approach, however the reasoning and consensus seems to be not quite there imo. Everyone seems to have different opinions on why the ban was made perma for instance, and based purely on the timeline Helix put up here some of the reasons given simply don't add up.

Well, the problem is that the community (or at least some) have been chomping at the bit to complain about this and whatever proper consensus needed to be formed hasn't really been formed. In reality we've had no more than 2 or 3 proper days to consider this.

The timeframe Helix puts up fails to mention the content of his PMs.

BuffyBot

I'm not sure where people are getting this "apology" thing from. Recognition of doing something wrong is vastly different from an apology.

Helix

seamus wrote: »

The timeframe Helix puts up fails to mention the content of his PMs.

ill post them all in chronological order if youd like?

Chucky the tree

DeVore wrote: »

Of course it depends on the circumstances. Every decision depends on its circumstances. If you are all looking for the security of "rules" then you wouldnt last 5 seconds as an admin here. We have to make decisions on situations that no one has faced before as we have fnck all time or basis on which to make them. And we have to make them all the time. To quote Pratchett, there is no justice, there's just us.

Did Helix deserve a virtual smack in the mouth? Yeah, yeah he did.

What does that mean for the future of boards, I dunno. We can talk through it here. But I'm happier we kicked him out of soccer as a finger-wag then just turn a blind eye to it. Thats my gut feeling. I'm not going to post-rationalise it with "rules" or "precedents". Its right or its wrong.

DeV.

Did you, any other admin or any soccer mod PM helix about the press release and tell him to tone it down or if he does anything like that again he will be banned? Why did they feel the need to wade in with a ban straight away?

Considering as you well know from the drama bombs on poker forum people are always told to take it to their blogs if they have an issue, will people now punished over what is written in a blog or on bebo? I think it's a joke that the people who decided on his perma ban are all admins who pretty much never post or contribute to the soccer forum while the mods of the soccer forum got absolutely zero say in the matter.