Soccer forum. Re: Economist thread.

invincibleirish

Seems to me Helix was made an example of as much as anything. We've seen admin rush and trip over themselves as they try to justify Helixs banning, it seems pretty clear a lot of senior mods/admins on this site have their own issues with the Soccer forum and its users.

Apparently its impossible to moderate and its a madhouse of unreasonable primitives, at least thats what so many mods on this forum (who are never seen in the SF) seem to think. you could have fooled me!

5starpool

BuffyBot wrote: »

I'm not sure where people are getting this "apology" thing from. Recognition of doing something wrong is vastly different from an apology.

How can one accept they have done something wrong without it being an apology?

If he stated something like "I can see why ye are mad, and I know it was wrong, but I'm glad I did it" then I can't really see that doing anything more than inflame the situation even further.

DeVore

Do you think what he did was perfectly ok?

DeV.

Time Magazine

DeVore wrote: »

Do you think what he did was perfectly ok?

DeV.

Honestly, did you read this whole thread?

Chucky the tree

DeVore wrote: »

Helix can sit on xpert11 writing diatribes against all of us for all I care. Its not like there arent enough people out there who hate me already.

But what he wont get is access to the community GY helped create while abusing her from a distance. I dont see why I should ask any mod to accept that. Do you?

The problem is that Helix also has shown complete contempt for us and refuses to acknowledge that anything he has done is in any way out of line. Frankly, there is no point allowing him to return if the next day we're going to have to ban him again if he repeats this sort of thing. This is far from the first time we have taken that stance too by the way.

DeV.

So is helix banned from north america, politics, science and paranormal now?

DeVore wrote: »

The problem is that Helix also has shown complete contempt for us and refuses to acknowledge that anything he has done is in any way out of line. Frankly, there is no point allowing him to return if the next day we're going to have to ban him again if he repeats this sort of thing. This is far from the first time we have taken that stance too by the way.

DeV.

So basically because he didnt go back to the admin's/GY with his tail tucked between his legs begging for forgiveness he wouldn't be banned?

_blank_

invincibleirish wrote: »

it seems pretty clear a lot of senior mods/admins on this site have their own issues with the Soccer forum and its users.

That has been clear for a while now.

I cannot understand why anyone who takes on the Soccer Mod position is in any surprised if they become a figure of hate for some people. Same goes for politics actually.

I like GY, I don't always agree with her modding decisions, and yes, I have said some things about her to other people while attending an event with the Boards.ie name attached.

Spud83

DeVore wrote: »

Helix can sit on xpert11 writing diatribes against all of us for all I care. Its not like there arent enough people out there who hate me already.

Then why all the talk of we are protecting our members/mods/users/the boards.ie name whatever? All sounds like crap, as you haven't protected anything with this course of action IMO.

DeVore wrote: »

But what he wont get is access to the community GY helped create while abusing her from a distance. I dont see why I should ask any mod to accept that. Do you?

I have neither supported nor criticised what Helix done. I'm trying to see things from an over all perspective. However since you asked directly. In this case I don't think it should have been accepted. However if you wanted to protect your mods I believe there was a better way to go about it like opening up a discussion with Helix and maybe telling him that kind of stuff can not be tolerated. Giving him a ban, and telling him that it will be extended if the abuse/bullying continued.

NOTE: I did not say extended if he disagreed with you.

Then also requesting that boards.ie be removed the league in question, which I believe has already been done.

Then putting a firm warning in the Xpert 11 thread that any further abuse/bullying/attacks of boards users will result in the Xpert thread being removed and boards no longer supporting the running of this league.

DeVore wrote: »

The problem is that Helix also has shown complete contempt for us and refuses to acknowledge that anything he has done is in any way out of line. Frankly, there is no point allowing him to return if the next day we're going to have to ban him again if he repeats this sort of thing. This is far from the first time we have taken that stance too by the way.

DeV.

He was never given the chance to stop, never warned about a perm ban. I don't believe he has to acknowledge what he did was wrong, he should have been allowed to serve some time, and be given the chance to not repeat it.

_blank_

DeVore wrote: »

Do you think what he did was perfectly ok?

DeV.

I don't believe anyone, in the whole of this thread, not even Helix, has said that.

Chucky the tree

DeVore wrote: »

Do you think what he did was perfectly ok?

DeV.

I dont, I think he should be warned by the mods on the electric picnic/xpert eleven website for his comments.

leninbenjamin

DeVore wrote: »

Its right or its wrong.

look, I understand the difficulties of moderating a busy site. I know how difficult it can be to make decisions on the spot and how unhelpful rules can be in making those decisions.

but you're making a fatal flaw. nothing, and i mean absolutely nothing in this world can be viewed in black and white, right or wrong. Every action has the potential for unforseen consequence, even something as simple as banning a user.

this action reflects boards.ie as a whole, so the punishment should be reflective of boards.ie as a whole. the decision to ban someone for what they said off-site, not only affects you and the admins and the mods, but also me and the rest of the users that make this place what it is.

you can argue there is no precedent being set, but this can never be the case. every action you take impacts those that come after it. i eat food, i take a sh*t. I stay up all night, i feel tired the next day. I ban someone, i have to deal with the reactions and how that will affect the actions of the rest of the community.

here are a few questions that i think need to be adressed.

1. Does this action protect mods from future abuse?
I argue no. a ban from a single forum can never be said to do this. If online bullying is really an issue here, then a ban from a single forum will never rectify it, only shove it under the carpet temporarily.

2. Does this action impact on the rest of the community in any way?
clearly it does. You say it's unlikely to happen again. that's bollocks, as boards grows the risks of it reoccuring increase proportionally. only next time it may not be memebers of the soccer forum. what do you do then?

3. does this action work in favour of the interests of boards?
I don't think so, you've simply pigeonholed a single community with it.

4. What message does it send?
This is where i struggle with most. clearly it should not be tolerated, and it's right you have acted. but by limiting it to a ban on soccer does this mean the soccer forum has to be handled with care? Am i as a soccer poster considered a greater threat to the functioning of the site and community?

mike65

Admins are human too, they get things wrong. They got this wrong. btw is there any chance of the definitve reason for the ban being stated clearly on this thread. Just so we know for future reference.

_blank_

mike65 wrote: »

Admins are human too, they get things wrong. They got this wrong. btw is there any chance of the definitve reason for the ban being stated clearly on this thread. Just so we know for future reference.

I don't think the Admin even know the answer to that one yet.

Nearly every one of the Admins has posted in this thread, and not one has answered that.

I do wonder why.

Helix

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Did you, any other admin or any soccer mod PM helix about the press release and tell him to tone it down or if he does anything like that again he will be banned?

they did not

_blank_

It's like the Admin are a cat toying with a half dead mouse at this stage.

Why won't someone put him out of his misery?

Ron DMC

I guess I'm a little late in joining the party, but here's my two cents.

Helix has been banned for comments he made on another site. Ok, there's nothing in the boards rules or the forum rules regarding this, but the admins rule the site so it's their call so they can do as they like. They're free to change my name to stupidface if they see fit (please don't by the way).

But personally, if someone bad-mouthed/bullied/abused me outside of boards, be it in real life, bebo/facebook, another forum, wherever, I do not feel that there is any reason for that to result in a ban within boards. As long as they're well-behaved here and do nothing wrong, then no problem I reckon.

Probably not the best analogy but here goes. The legal drinking age in Ireland is 18. In parts of Europe however, you can drink from 16. If a 16 year old kid is on holidays in Luxembourg and goes to the pub, he is breaking Irish law, but he's in Luxembourg. Surely he shouldn't be punished back in Ireland for something that has nothing to do with the place.

Spud83

Des wrote: »

I don't think the Admin even know the answer to that one yet.

Nearly every one of the Admins has posted in this thread, and not one has answered that.

I do wonder why.

In fairness I think DeV answered it fairly clearly. Helix was acting a dick (abusive bullying) in a place where he thought he was safe (finger wagging).

invincibleirish

Des wrote: »

That has been clear for a while now.

I cannot understand why anyone who takes on the Soccer Mod position is in any surprised if they become a figure of hate for some people. Same goes for politics actually.

I like GY, I don't always agree with her modding decisions, and yes, I have said some things about her to other people while attending an event with the Boards.ie name attached.

This is the thing, the SF as made out by some here is some kind of terrible place barely under the control of the trusty mods. I'd beg to differ, LL, Therecklessone & Xavi6 have all been recently appointed and things have went swimmingly.

As an aside i have long thought GY is unsuitable for the SF primarily because she's way too strict & by the book, I have nothing against her personally but she has riled sections of the forum as alluded to by other SF regulars on here. This may be considered off topic but i think its the main reason for all this trouble. I understand GY was initially appointed by the senior people here to mod the SF to calm it down, but the flipside of it is that GY has caused more hassle then she's solved, the amount of feedback threads here about her and the demise of the OT thread are just two examples.

Seems to me admins are protecting their original 'good idea' of putting GY into the SF, even when it means banning long established SF posters on tenuous reasons. And yes banning people because of content published under different usernames on different websites is tenuous.

Sherifu

Des wrote: »

I do wonder why.

I find myself wondering if any action would have been taken if it were a less influential mod. Looks bad for the site really. It's the wrong course of action.

5starpool

I think the whole thing is a sorry mess. Helix was wrong in his actions imo, and he is wrong to not concede that what he did was wrong. I also think the admins are wrong in permbanning him (although some seem to say it is a tempban) from the soccer forum. I think it is also wrong to want him to admit what he did was wrong in order to receive a more lenient punishment.

If 2 wrongs do not make a right, then 4 wrongs most certainly don't, and I'm sure there are more wrongs involved that just those I have listed here.

Chucky the tree

Sherifu wrote: »

I find myself wondering if any action would have been taken if it were a less influential mod. Looks bad for the site really. It's the wrong course of action.

I also wonder if the person wasn't a mod would the same of happened? I seriously doubt it.

tallaght01

Ron DMC wrote: »

I guess I'm a little late in joining the party, but here's my two cents.

Helix has been banned for comments he made on another site. Ok, there's nothing in the boards rules or the forum rules regarding this, but the admins rule the site so it's their call so they can do as they like. They're free to change my name to stupidface if they see fit (please don't by the way).

But personally, if someone bad-mouthed/bullied/abused me outside of boards, be it in real life, bebo/facebook, another forum, wherever, I do not feel that there is any reason for that to result in a ban within boards. As long as they're well-behaved here and do nothing wrong, then no problem I reckon.

Probably not the best analogy but here goes. The legal drinking age in Ireland is 18. In parts of Europe however, you can drink from 16. If a 16 year old kid is on holidays in Luxembourg and goes to the pub, he is breaking Irish law, but he's in Luxembourg. Surely he shouldn't be punished back in Ireland for something that has nothing to do with the place.

It's just basic human nature, though. If someone slagged off one of my mates, and I owned a website where they were a user, I'd probably do a knee-jerk special, and ban them too. I don't think I'd be thinking about precedent, or worrying about starting a 500 page feedback thread. It's just what you do when someone has a go at your mate. Regardless of what your mates do, you'll usually get their back.

So, they banned this kid. I'd have done the same, on a kind of emotive level, even though I know it was technically not really a great idea. That's why everyone is giving different reasons for the banning, IMO. The questions about precedent were interesting initially. Now they're creepy in a stalkery kinda way :pac::pac::pac: I don't think it's going to affect lives THAT much.

Sherifu

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I also wonder if the person wasn't a mod would the same of happened? I seriously doubt it.

I seem to recall a similar incident a year or two back involving a normal user writing insults in a blog linked to from boards as an indirect way to insult someone. As far as I recall there was no banning but rules were amended.

Spud83

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I also wonder if the person wasn't a mod would the same of happened? I seriously doubt it.

I can see why though, the admins seem to want to protect the mods because the are volunteers who give up their time to help this site function. I believe the admins are trying to help a mod, who has helped them. Nothing wrong with that except I fail to see how they have helped the mod.

opr

Does this special remit that is afforded to help protect boards.ie users from abuse elsewhere apply to Mods only ? I mean if i am having problems on another site as a normal user can i also ask for the admins to review my case ?

Opr

leninbenjamin

tallaght01 wrote: »

Now they're creepy in a stalkery kinda way :pac::pac::pac: I don't think it's going to affect lives THAT much.

that's true. but the lack of a precedent is more reflective of how fast boards has and is growing. this type of thing happens a lot on other sites. i've actually seen a lot more serious situations on other much smaller sites. when it gets to the stage you've to call police you know it's bad.

this may not happen again in the near future, or it might. but if it does, it has the potential to become a lot more serious. that's why some structure needs to be drawn up and precedent taken into consideration for things like this.

ShooterSF

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I also wonder if the person wasn't a mod would the same of happened? I seriously doubt it.

I still don't think this has been fairly answered. In a future hypothetical situation does the user being a mod further protect them from off-site abuse of their actions on boards?

As for no set rules and no precedents, why not chuck out the charters so and just employ the "Don't be a dick rule". Why is there a need to be specific in some areas yet not in others.

Also can someone confirm that it definitely isn't April 1st?

Ron DMC

tallaght01 wrote: »

So, they banned this kid. I'd have done the same, on a kind of emotive level, even though I know it was technically not really a great idea.

I know what you mean, but I don't think emotions and modding should mix.

It's like a renegade cop taking justice into their own hands. Stick to the letter of the law. Both sides of the fence.

javaboy

Ron DMC wrote: »

Probably not the best analogy but here goes. The legal drinking age in Ireland is 18. In parts of Europe however, you can drink from 16. If a 16 year old kid is on holidays in Luxembourg and goes to the pub, he is breaking Irish law, but he's in Luxembourg. Surely he shouldn't be punished back in Ireland for something that has nothing to do with the place.

As you said probably not the best analogy. There's no victim in that example. In this case GY is being abused from a "safe distance". It's not a black and white issue and I can understand why the admins acted.

A lot of mods would feel rightly pissed off at having to put up with someone happily posting away on their forum while off-site they are openly vitriolic and abusive. From my own point of view, I wouldn't care and would actually cringe at the idea of a Boards ban being applied for something said off-site to protect me. At the same time though I would appreciate that the admins would care enough to do it.

At the end of it all, this is a private site run by the admins. They have a volunteer work force of moderators. Posting on Boards is a privilege not a right. If the admins see one of their volunteers being abused in whatever form in whatever place, they are perfectly entitled to remove that privilege.

No great wrong has been done here. Somebody who was acting up has been punished. I think that should be remembered at all times. Helix is not an innocent victim of some great injustice.

I'm not entirely decided on this one. On one hand as I said, why should a mod have to grit their teeth and politely deal with someone they know is posting crap about them elsewhere?

On the other hand, I don't think in general that your off-site actions should have on-site repercussions beyond extreme cases such as legal threats or threats of violence. I'm definitely leaning more towards this view.

Tis a pickle and fwiw, I'm glad I'm not charged with making the decision.


I'd be very interested to see how this would have played out if the victim hadn't been a mod. Some admins seem to be saying this protection applies to mods only and others seem to say it applies to both.

5starpool

Ron DMC wrote: »

I know what you mean, but I don't think emotions and modding should mix.

It's like a renegade cop taking justice into their own hands. Stick to the letter of the law. Both sides of the fence.

I don't really think I could disagree with you more.

A mod who deals with rules and refuses to take things on a case by case basis has no business being a mod in my opinion.

Daysha

This needs to be quoted and reposted. Until this is addressed, we're going round in circles.

Ludo wrote: »

After reading all this thread this morning, I can honestly say that I am unclear exactly WHY Helix has been perm banned from soccer. I can understand and see some reasons why he possibly should be, BUT there has been no official reason given for it from what I saw (or multiple conflicting reasons possibly).

Which was it:

- abusing boards mod on another forum.
- bullying a mod (then why is it only a soccer forum ban)
- not acknowledging his wrong doing (bans get extended for this???)

Until I can see the actual official reason then I would hold off on a firm decision on whether it is the correct punishment or not.