why are we still being ripped off

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t have time to sift through websites that you link to (and watch hour-long documentaries), therefore I’m not entitled to partake in the discussion?

There have been a variety of claims made against Tesco, but most have no basis. I’ve done a little searching and this is about as damning as it gets:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tesco-one-of-seven-firms-fined-for-not-displaying-their-prices-1435055.html

So they were guilty of misleading advertising and they were fined. Justice has been done – let’s move on.

With regard to child labour:

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/child%20labour%20making%20tesco%20clothes/170400

This doesn’t exactly fit in with your claims of Tesco employing a “child labour force”, does it?

There have been other claims made with regard to exploitation of workers in Bangladesh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6219274.stm

But again, the problem is with the suppliers, not Tesco. If you’re going to blame Tesco for purchasing from suppliers who exploit their workers, then you also have to blame Tesco’s suppliers for not abiding by labour laws, the Bangladeshi authorities for not enforcing labour laws and of course the consumers who purchase the product in Tesco.

To be perfectly honest, I don’t understand this crusade against Tesco. Focusing on Tesco in an effort to combat exploitation is like focusing on McDonalds in combating obesity; sure, they’re part of the problem, but they’re hardly the root cause.

Anyways, I shan’t be discussing Tesco’s business practices any further as it’s off-topic.

I have constantly, which you seem to completely ignore, kept within the topic of the thread and citing Tesco in particular as a rip off to the Irish economy as their practices are unfair and uncompetitive. You have vehemently defended Tesco and blankly refused to believe or accept Tesco can even dream of engaging in the practices they hold dear.

Even the justification that 'its not them its their suppliers', Poor Tesco being made to buy from people who make 12yr olds work under inhuman conditions to pump out masses of garments so you can get it cheaper than an ethical company that has to charge more to cover their costs and still walk out with lower profit margins than Tesco. Ignorance seems to be bliss, and as long as Tesco customers refuse to examine how they are able to deliver cheaper prices then the rip off will continue and not just for us Irish, but also the rip off conditions all suppliers are working under.

Tesco have buying power given to them by its consumers. Maybe do a little more research than a quick look at one incident in Dundrum before you make up your mind.

I stand by my initial points:

- support companies where you know that in getting the product to you has been fair and ethical.

- Irish production needs to dramatically increase in order to sustain the economy and our reliance on imports is unhealthy.

-End the culture of 'cheaper at all costs' and end the UK market control of the Irish economy. Cheap imports are transient and will not benefit the economy in the long term.

-Competition is healthy and should be encouraged, however cloning ourselves with the UK high street and at the expense of local businesses and creating monopolistic brands such as Tesco is foolish.


This is the true rip off... but you want your cheap stuff and Tesco, Argos, Arcadia Group and travelling to Northern Ireland delivers that. RIP the Irish economy.

I have many times given suggestions about recovery and ensuring fair and balanced prices. I am not against foreign companies coming into the Irish market and I am in favour of free trade and fair pricing. My suggestions look at the bigger picture. There is not one suggestion that you have added to the debate to indicate anything that you want the same for Ireland.

I'm not suggesting or accusing anything but are you in favour of joining the UK. I have seen a lot of this since I have come home and just wondered if that was also your point of view? I think many are feeling ripped off because the UK price for UK products by UK companies is cheaper...

cfcj

kevteljeur wrote: »

I think you're on to something. Next time I'm doing my 3-weekly shopping, I'll talk my wife into accepting big cuts in the shopping list so that we can pay more for for the same products, in a store that's an extra half-hour's drive away but owned by different people. It's amazing that no-one's thought of rebooting the economy by encouraging uncompetitive behaviour and rewarding over-pricing before now.


We should get a slogan for it, and market it: "Every little bit helps. Us. Not you." I'll do a logo and add a little smiley face to add to the 'rubbing the customer's face in it' feeling..

What a fantastic idea!!! ...also we could reduce the staff pay and lengthen their working hours, not allow them breaks or holidays, you know get a sweat shop going Every little helps! Then we're sure to get more money off the weekly bill. And after a few months turn the smiley face into a crying one.

Sand

People will vote with their feet. They go to Tescos or Northern Ireland because theyre not just going to lie back and think of Ireland whilst theyre screwed by "national" service providers.

cfcj

Sand wrote: »

People will vote with their feet. They go to Tescos or Northern Ireland because theyre not just going to lie back and think of Ireland whilst theyre screwed by "national" service providers.

Who exactly is screwing who?

djpbarry

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Consumers are weaker candidates for blame, as they are not really in the loop.

Maybe not, but can you honestly say that when the average person buys a t-shirt in Pennys for €3 that the thought of sweat-shops does not cross their mind?

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

You have vehemently defended Tesco and blankly refused to believe or accept Tesco can even dream of engaging in the practices they hold dear.

I have merely attempted to bring some objectivity to the discussion. You have thrown all sorts of accusations at Tesco and most are without basis. The one that seems plausible (the exploitation of workers in Bangladesh) is hardly something that is exclusive to Tesco. Hence I am shaving some difficulty in understanding this crusade.

cfcj wrote: »

Ignorance seems to be bliss, and as long as Tesco customers refuse to examine how they are able to deliver cheaper prices then the rip off will continue and not just for us Irish, but also the rip off conditions all suppliers are working under.

Well, that’s pretty much the point that has been made by myself and others – it’s ultimately the consumer who will decide what acceptable business practice is.

cfcj wrote: »

-End the culture of 'cheaper at all costs' and end the UK market control of the Irish economy. Cheap imports are transient and will not benefit the economy in the long term.

What is this “cheaper at all costs” nonsense you keep spouting? Your very first statement on this thread was “ ohh its truely a shocker how much things cost here.”. So on the one hand you complain about things being too expensive, while on the other you complain about cheap imports?!?

cfcj wrote: »

This is the true rip off... but you want your cheap stuff and Tesco, Argos, Arcadia Group and travelling to Northern Ireland delivers that.

I rarely shop in any of those outlets and I have never gone on a ‘shopping trip’ north of the border, not that I see much wrong with any of those things.

Bottom line is, if Irish businesses want custom, they’re going to have to earn it.

P. Breathnach

djpbarry wrote: »

Maybe not, but can you honestly say that when the average person buys a t-shirt in Pennys for €3 that the thought of sweat-shops does not cross their mind?

I can't say for sure, because I simply don't know. I suspect, however, that they don't give it a thought.

On the other hand, when purchasers from the big distributors/retailers contract to buy T-shirts in tens of thousands from producers in Asia, I expect that they should give it more than a passing thought.

It comes down, in part, to this: I don't have the opportunity or resources to check the origins of everything I buy; the big traders do. The best way to ensure that they buy from good employers (other than their consciences, if they apply them to their work) is public pressure, generally exerted with the participation of the media.

djpbarry

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I can't say for sure, because I simply don't know. I suspect, however, that they don't give it a thought.
...
It comes down, in part, to this: I don't have the opportunity or resources to check the origins of everything I buy; the big traders do. The best way to ensure that they buy from good employers (other than their consciences, if they apply them to their work) is public pressure, generally exerted with the participation of the media.

And therein lies the problem; exploitation will continue because, for the most part, consumers in the West don't care, or at least don't care enough to do without the cheap produce.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

I have merely attempted to bring some objectivity to the discussion. You have thrown all sorts of accusations at Tesco and most are without basis. The one that seems plausible (the exploitation of workers in Bangladesh) is hardly something that is exclusive to Tesco. Hence I am shaving some difficulty in understanding this crusade.
Well, that’s pretty much the point that has been made by myself and others – it’s ultimately the consumer who will decide what acceptable business practice is.
What is this “cheaper at all costs” nonsense you keep spouting? Your very first statement on this thread was “ ohh its truely a shocker how much things cost here.”. So on the one hand you complain about things being too expensive, while on the other you complain about cheap imports?!?
I rarely shop in any of those outlets and I have never gone on a ‘shopping trip’ north of the border, not that I see much wrong with any of those things.

Bottom line is, if Irish businesses want custom, they’re going to have to earn it.

I think your bottom line is that if Irish business want to compete they need to start getting the 12yr olds to start working up a sweat!

Of course I am disgusted at how much things cost here compared to the UK, having lived there for the past 7yrs and how to survive ordinary Irish businesses have had to hike up the price of things just to make ends meat. I was equally shocked at the local companies that have gone under. I know you think its a good thing cause they didn't earn your business through being as ruthless ...ohh wait you don't want to know how they do it, once the dirty deed its done right?

Accusations without basis??? I have echoed accusations about Tesco from Tescopoly, Channel 4's Dispatches, and organisations that have seen reported their findings/dealings with Tesco, eg. Mandate the shop workers union. I don't know why you are defiant on the grand cover up about their policies. The difference with Tesco is that they are not only the practices in production of their clothing but there is also the practices they have adopted here in Ireland with their staff and suppliers. I have not seen or heard any other supermarkets doing this. If there is then they are also wrong. But certainly your local small grocer or butcher isn't pressurising and giving inadequate prices to local suppliers because they hold the majority share of the market.

Cheaper at all costs (spouting as you nicely put it), well I thought that would have been fairly simple to figure out.

So given that you now say "for the most part, consumers in the West don't care, or at least don't care enough to do without the cheap produce", ...do you see how this wrong and unfair to allow local business and local suppliers go under so people like me who do care about where things are made can have the choice?

I haven't heard you express any disgust at child labour, is it something you agree with, and do you think it wrong that I would encourage anyone to avoid any company that supports and uses it?

I just read an article by The Irish Exporters Association that are seeking a crisis injection of €1billion to save 40,000 Irish jobs. From that can you see the need to work on our export business and move from our dependancy of cheap imports? 40,000 is a lot of jobs! (http://www.irishexporters.ie/)

Fluffybums

Minimum wage - 6.78 euro in UK, 4.70 euro US and 8.65 euro Ireland
Electrician - 12.42 euro in UK, 10.51 euro (<1 year experience) US and 21.49 euro Ireland.

I suspect that the comparisons go on and on....

Anecdotally, cleaning windows of a standard 3 bed house (not bungalow) quoted 30 euro in rural Ireland, 11.82 for a similar sized house in Tulse Hill, London.:(

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

Of course I am disgusted at how much things cost here compared to the UK, having lived there for the past 7yrs and how to survive ordinary Irish businesses have had to hike up the price of things just to make ends meat.

What’s that now? That’s an interesting perspective; domestic businesses had to raise prices to compete with imports?

cfcj wrote: »

I was equally shocked at the local companies that have gone under. I know you think its a good thing...

You’re deliberately missing the point – if a business is not competitive, that business is unlikely to succeed, regardless of the country of origin. You think Irish consumers should prop up Irish businesses just because they’re Irish, even if they’re crap businesses?

cfcj wrote: »

Accusations without basis??? I have echoed accusations about Tesco from Tescopoly, Channel 4's Dispatches, and organisations that have seen reported their findings/dealings with Tesco...

Indeed, but, as I said already, the only accusation that has any basis is that which refers to suppliers of clothing. If you’ve got concrete evidence of wrong-doing, then by all means present it.

cfcj wrote: »

The difference with Tesco is that they are not only the practices in production of their clothing but there is also the practices they have adopted here in Ireland with their staff and suppliers.

Such as? Demanding lower prices from their suppliers? Imagine a business trying to up their profit margins, eh? Of course, an Oirish businesses would never engage in such a “ruthless” practice, would they?

Again, there is nothing about this that is exclusive to Tesco.

cfcj wrote: »

Cheaper at all costs (spouting as you nicely put it), well I thought that would have been fairly simple to figure out.

It’s just meaningless rhetoric; you speak of ending a “culture of cheaper at all costs” without explaining what this ‘culture’ is or how you plan to go about ending it. Besides, it doesn’t really fit in with your argument that Ireland is “disgustingly” expensive, does it?

cfcj wrote: »

...do you see how this wrong and unfair to allow local business and local suppliers go under so people like me who do care about where things are made can have the choice?

Why do you assume that every ‘local’ business or supplier is inherently “good” and deserves not to go out of business?

cfcj wrote: »

I haven't heard you express any disgust at child labour...

I don’t think I’ve expressed disgust toward sexual abuse anywhere on this thread, so I obviously support that too.

cfcj

Fluffybums wrote: »

Minimum wage - 6.78 euro in UK, 4.70 euro US and 8.65 euro Ireland
Electrician - 12.42 euro in UK, 10.51 euro (<1 year experience) US and 21.49 euro Ireland.

I suspect that the comparisons go on and on....

Anecdotally, cleaning windows of a standard 3 bed house (not bungalow) quoted 30 euro in rural Ireland, 11.82 for a similar sized house in Tulse Hill, London.:(

A consideration...

Ireland has a better standard of living than the UK and US. Compared to the UK we pay less tax and don't pay for water, at least where I live.

The US they have lower taxes than us however they don't provide the same social services/healthcare provided here.

US average yearly wage is €18,686 , per capita of GDP is €33,630.
UK average yearly wage is €28,409 , per capita of GDP is €26,212
Ireland average yearly wage is €32,600, per capita of GDP is €30,530

Gonna look up how to get into working as an electrician though

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

What’s that now? That’s an interesting perspective; domestic businesses had to raise prices to compete with imports?
You’re deliberately missing the point – if a business is not competitive, that business is unlikely to succeed, regardless of the country of origin. You think Irish consumers should prop up Irish businesses just because they’re Irish, even if they’re crap businesses?
Indeed, but, as I said already, the only accusation that has any basis is that which refers to suppliers of clothing. If you’ve got concrete evidence of wrong-doing, then by all means present it.
Such as? Demanding lower prices from their suppliers? Imagine a business trying to up their profit margins, eh? Of course, an Oirish businesses would never engage in such a “ruthless” practice, would they?

Again, there is nothing about this that is exclusive to Tesco.
It’s just meaningless rhetoric; you speak of ending a “culture of cheaper at all costs” without explaining what this ‘culture’ is or how you plan to go about ending it. Besides, it doesn’t really fit in with your argument that Ireland is “disgustingly” expensive, does it?
Why do you assume that every ‘local’ business or supplier is inherently “good” and deserves not to go out of business?
I don’t think I’ve expressed disgust toward sexual abuse anywhere on this thread, so I obviously support that too.

Well if you only select the things you want to hear then of course you won't understand anything.

I think you misunderstand how they make the clothes in these sweatshops also, they don't have sex with the kids...

Do you by chance work for Tesco?

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

A consideration...

Ireland has a better standard of living than the UK and US.

Based on what?

cfcj wrote: »

Well if you only select the things you want to hear then of course you won't understand anything.

I think you misunderstand how they make the clothes in these sweatshops also, they don't have sex with the kids...

Do you by chance work for Tesco?

Ignoring the difficult questions are we?

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

Based on what?
Ignoring the difficult questions are we?

Standard of living is based on the information I provided with the post. Work it out for yourself, I know you don't have time n'all and any degree of research is taxing.

I am not avoiding any difficult questions, I think I have made my point very clear. And clearly you have made it clear what you support. I will engage with anyone who is prepared to willing to engage with me. You haven't been objective like you said, you have been defensive and protective of what I consider to be a rip off to the Irish economy.

I have delivered an opinion shared with IBEC, ISME and the Irish Exporters Association about the direction the economy is going in and highlighted a company in particular that is blatantly exploiting its workforce, suppliers and using child labour in order to undercut and force their competitors out of the market. I understand they are a business and are all about making money. I have said time and time again that I am in support of free trade, foreign companies coming and trading in the Irish market and our membership of the EU. You havn't focused on these points and have asked me to back up with evidence anything negitive I have implied or said about Tesco. I presented you with reports from organisations who have researched and reported how Tesco operate but you choose to ignore that and told me "Do you really think I, or anyone else, has the time to sift through all that looking for something to back up your argument?" Why would you ask me to back up my arguement and then not even want to read it? Surely you are protecting Tesco. I have no problem if Tesco operate in Ireland, if they operate fairly and that means not exploiting workers in third world, under developed, countries where they can enforce working conditions through their suppliers there that wouldn't be legal in Ireland or the EU. Secondly just because Tesco and Primark can sell €3 tops and others can't because they don't engage in child labour doesn't mean they are a 'crap' company and deserve to go under. Like I said before your logic with that is that its just the way competition works doesn't wash because it is unfair and would be illegal if they were doing it here, the vast majority of Irish companies are honourable and do not engage in the same bullying practices that Tesco do. Please provide evidence if you think this is the case!

Please don't ignore all my earlier points and dissecting this point and asking me to repeat again and again the same point that you don't even take on board. Like I said before the majority of what I am advocating is about helping the economy and protecting and ensuring stability in Irish jobs. Let me make it a bit more simple for you...


Competition = good (thumbs up)

Unfair competition = bad (thumbs down)

kevteljeur

I think we need to make a very clear distinction between ethical shopping and shopping in the National Economic Interest. You are blurring the distinction between them, cfcj, and they need to be separated out into two separate issues.

Buy Irish isn't the same thing as ethical shopping at all. If Tesco was the dominant retail outlet but all of it's products were ethically sourced, you'd still be against it based on it's economic power in relation to native Irish businesses. If it was Irish, and less dominant, but not ethically sourced, you'd say support Irish and buy there.

Shop according to your means or your conscience, it's up to the retailer to fight for your business and give you a reason to buy there. 'Buy Irish' is largely a collective tool for winning your business. Tesco, Aldi and Lidl all sell products sourced in Ireland, and Irish retailers sell large a large proportion of products sourced abroad (particularly in the UK).


So tell me cfcj, what would get your euros, organic beef from Germany, fair trade beef from Argentina, or cheap beef from Ireland (with no welfare or foodstuff guarantees)?



.

madser

djpbarry wrote: »

There's much better quality to be had in fruit & veg., butchers, etc., and it's often cheaper too. If you're not happy with what's on offer in supermarkets, then don't shop there.

Still floggin that old dead horse, have you no other argument other than if ya don't like the price shop around:rolleyes:

cfcj

kevteljeur wrote: »

I think we need to make a very clear distinction between ethical shopping and shopping in the National Economic Interest. You are blurring the distinction between them, cfcj, and they need to be separated out into two separate issues.

Buy Irish isn't the same thing as ethical shopping at all. If Tesco was the dominant retail outlet but all of it's products were ethically sourced, you'd still be against it based on it's economic power in relation to native Irish businesses. If it was Irish, and less dominant, but not ethically sourced, you'd say support Irish and buy there.

Shop according to your means or your conscience, it's up to the retailer to fight for your business and give you a reason to buy there. 'Buy Irish' is largely a collective tool for winning your business. Tesco, Aldi and Lidl all sell products sourced in Ireland, and Irish retailers sell large a large proportion of products sourced abroad (particularly in the UK).


So tell me cfcj, what would get your euros, organic beef from Germany, fair trade beef from Argentina, or cheap beef from Ireland (with no welfare or foodstuff guarantees)?
.

How did you get that from what I said??, and please don't assume what I would or would not say. My opinion belongs to me and it is for me to decide those things. You don't know me so how can you assume anything about me?


I was talking about fair competition!!!!!! Seriously are you even reading what I'm saying or just selective words? I'm saying that if you have a company like Tesco who use unethical means to drive down the price. Engage in a policy of flooding the market, particularly around the competition, i.e. the local businesses, their treatment of staff, e.g. Douglas in Cork. Bully their suppliers into a very poor and uncompetitive price and then, in effect, censor the customer with withdrawals of local products, e.g. Ballymaloe. Creating a monopoloy in many local areas with their Tesco Extra, Tesco Central and Tesco Express all in one area giving no competition to the consumer. This is they have done in many parts of the UK and are striving for here in Ireland. Can you please tell me how a monopoly is good for competition?

I have made the suggestion that with our trade surplus in decline and the fact that 80% of all exported products in this country is by multi-nationals that could pull out at any time and have already started to do so in favour of Eastern Europe, e.g. Dell. We need to build up production. The simple fact is that we are not producing enough on our own. This a concern expressed by IBEC, ISME and the IEA. If you put it into context of your household income, And you have had a pay cut, you start limiting your expenses and if possible you try and increase the money coming in.

If someone chooses to buy Irish and has pride in doing so then that is their business and they should be commended for that.

Again find myself repeating that I am in favour of an open market and fair competition, and non protectionism. I welcome any company into Ireland that engages itself ethically. I also have absolutely no problem in advising people to avoid companies proven to have used child labour. If you find that a problem then thats something you need to sort out with your own conscience.

I don't advocate that we are self reliant, what good will that do to international trade that we desperately need. I have issue with the balance and the fact that so many companies and in particular Tesco have been able to wipe out local business by unfair business practice including practices carried out in under developed countries that would be deemed illegal here. And all in the vein of cheap products. You must look at the bigger picture and a little further than the weekly shop. This is the true rip off occuring in Ireland. Yet somehow its being allowed and accepted... speak with local business, find out what they have to say. Its not like we can wait for RTE and the Irish media to figure it out, or are they afraid to upset their advertisers? who knows.

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

Standard of living is based on the information I provided with the post.

You provided a few figures on annual incomes and GDP – that doesn’t necessarily mean that the standard of living in this country is higher. Although, having said that, ‘standard of living’ is a highly subjective concept anyway.

cfcj wrote: »

I have delivered an opinion shared with IBEC, ISME and the Irish Exporters Association about the direction the economy is going in and highlighted a company in particular that is blatantly exploiting its workforce…

Is this still in reference to the dispute in Douglas? The dispute which has seemingly been resolved?

cfcj wrote: »

…suppliers…

Attempting to negotiate lower prices from suppliers does not constitute “exploitation”.

cfcj wrote: »

…and using child labour in order to undercut and force their competitors out of the market.

Child labour is not employed in the supply of clothes to their competitors?

cfcj wrote: »

I presented you with reports from organisations who have researched and reported how Tesco operate but you choose to ignore that and told me "Do you really think I, or anyone else, has the time to sift through all that looking for something to back up your argument?" Why would you ask me to back up my arguement and then not even want to read it?

You presented, among other things, an hour-long documentary. It is totally unreasonable to expect people to watch a video in its entirety so that they may participate in the discussion. Furthermore, at the risk of ‘back-seat modding’, I refer you to the forum charter:

“Posting a link to a video hosted elsewhere does not constitute discussion. Not everyone is able to watch videos, for technical or other reasons, and points raised on a video are almost impossible to refute. It's OK to link to a video, but it should be accompanied by a detailed summary of its contents and arguments, and you must be prepared to discuss it.”

cfcj wrote: »

Like I said before your logic with that is that its just the way competition works doesn't wash because it is unfair and would be illegal if they were doing it here, the vast majority of Irish companies are honourable and do not engage in the same bullying practices that Tesco do.

Your argument is full of this sort of emotive nonsense; Irish companies are inherently good, Tesco are inherently evil. I can think of several Irish companies off the top of my head (CRH, AIB, Bank of Ireland, Dunnes, Ryanair, INM, Fyffes, Tullow Oil) that have been involved in some form of controversy at some point in the past.

Fat_Fingers

Hi cfcj, at the prospect of you calling me idiot again I'll venture with second reply at my own peril .
You keep referring to "concern expressed by IBEC..."
Contrary to their name and popular believe they DO NOT represent Irish business. Be very skeptical of IBEC expressing any "concerns" on anything. What business does IBEC represents? IBEC members are ESB, Dublin Airport Authority,An Post, RTE, Bord Gais, FAS, Bord na Mona, CIE, Irish Greyhound Board , VHI, Bank of Ireland, AIB, National Irish Bank, Irish Nationwide, Anglo Irish Bank, Bank of Scotland , ACC Bank, Greencore, C&C

Above businesses and sami-state owned bodies have very bad track record of any competition and value for money when comes to customers or any consumer interest for that matter.

Actually last year IBEC received €1m from banks and protected state sector - semi-state companies. That is taxpayers money been "donated" to IBEC.

So chances are whatever IBEC said the opposite is good for customers.

Ok, thats all, i'm ready now to be told off.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

You provided a few figures on annual incomes and GDP – that doesn’t necessarily mean that the standard of living in this country is higher. Although, having said that, ‘standard of living’ is a highly subjective concept anyway.
Is this still in reference to the dispute in Douglas? The dispute which has seemingly been resolved?
Attempting to negotiate lower prices from suppliers does not constitute “exploitation”.
Child labour is not employed in the supply of clothes to their competitors?
You presented, among other things, an hour-long documentary. It is totally unreasonable to expect people to watch a video in its entirety so that they may participate in the discussion. Furthermore, at the risk of ‘back-seat modding’, I refer you to the forum charter:

“Posting a link to a video hosted elsewhere does not constitute discussion. Not everyone is able to watch videos, for technical or other reasons, and points raised on a video are almost impossible to refute. It's OK to link to a video, but it should be accompanied by a detailed summary of its contents and arguments, and you must be prepared to discuss it.”
Your argument is full of this sort of emotive nonsense; Irish companies are inherently good, Tesco are inherently evil. I can think of several Irish companies off the top of my head (CRH, AIB, Bank of Ireland, Dunnes, Ryanair, INM, Fyffes, Tullow Oil) that have been involved in some form of controversy at some point in the past.

First line from the link you provided about the dispute with staff in Douglas... "The dispute which hit Tesco's newest store at Douglas in Cork looks closer to being resolved today" does that say it has been resolved? The fact that Tesco have not honoured the agreements in place and if they back down from it does not take from facts that they have used a new store opening to force its employees in a change of the terms and conditions of their employment.

I posted a link to a video to back up and give the evidence where Tesco behaviour in the UK, which I also had explained in an earlier post, have flooded the market with their Tesco Extra, Tesco Central and Tesco Local stores either blocking or eliminating competition creating a monopoly in that area. The fact that you choose not to take on board what is being said by me and refute at all suggestion that Tesco can do any wrong.

I believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty and don't believe in generalisations therefore I believe that of course Irish companies are of course honourable until individual companies are proved otherwise. I have said before I would welcome Tesco and have no problems with them if they acted fairly. I don't believe they do, given that they engage, like Primark, in delivering cheaper products by a practice that would be illegal if conducted in Ireland or the EU. Please give evidence or at least an incidence other companies suppliers are engaged in child labour. Tesco are by your own admission engaged in such practices and have been deliberately trying to deceive the consumer into thinking they are not by being one of the founders of the 'Ethical Trading Initiative'.

Your that statement "I can think of several Irish companies off the top of my head (CRH, AIB, Bank of Ireland, Dunnes, Ryanair, INM, Fyffes, Tullow Oil) that have been involved in some form of controversy at some point in the past". Please explain the relevance of this, controversy doesn't mean they have done something wrong or are engaging in unethical practices. Also if companies have done something in the past which has now been rectified and no longer engage that way then it is not relevant because its about what is happening now. Justification for this cannot be given as 'well they have done it too'.

Tesco do not engage in negotiations according to their suppliers, they demand, aggressively demand.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article4968834.ece

Still you have not answered me when I asked if you work for Tesco... if you do surely a conflict of interest here with you being a moderator.

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

First line from the link you provided about the dispute with staff in Douglas... "The dispute which hit Tesco's newest store at Douglas in Cork looks closer to being resolved today" does that say it has been resolved?

I said “seemingly been resolved”. In other words, representatives of Tesco are working things out with representatives of the employees.

cfcj wrote: »

The fact that Tesco have not honoured the agreements in place and if they back down from it does not take from facts that they have used a new store opening to force its employees in a change of the terms and conditions of their employment.

Have they? Because last I heard, negotiations were ongoing.

cfcj wrote: »

Please give evidence or at least an incidence other companies suppliers are engaged in child labour.

Well you’ve already used the example of Primark, who were also alleged to be selling products produced by children. I also seem to recall Gap being exposed for employing child labour in India not too long ago (but of course they promised not to do it again, even though there was evidence that they were engaged in the same practice in the 90’s, if I recall correctly). In fact, as far as I’m aware, M&S are the only (major) supplier of clothing in this country who are adamant that child labour is not employed in the manufacturing of their products.

cfcj wrote: »

Your that statement "I can think of several Irish companies off the top of my head (CRH, AIB, Bank of Ireland, Dunnes, Ryanair, INM, Fyffes, Tullow Oil) that have been involved in some form of controversy at some point in the past". Please explain the relevance of this…

It was a counter to your statement that “the vast majority of Irish companies are honourable.”

cfcj wrote: »

Tesco do not engage in negotiations according to their suppliers, they demand, aggressively demand.

Meaning what exactly? They enter the negotiations with guns and rottweilers?

cfcj

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Hi cfcj, at the prospect of you calling me idiot again I'll venture with second reply at my own peril .
You keep referring to "concern expressed by IBEC..."
Contrary to their name and popular believe they DO NOT represent Irish business. Be very skeptical of IBEC expressing any "concerns" on anything. What business does IBEC represents? IBEC members are ESB, Dublin Airport Authority,An Post, RTE, Bord Gais, FAS, Bord na Mona, CIE, Irish Greyhound Board , VHI, Bank of Ireland, AIB, National Irish Bank, Irish Nationwide, Anglo Irish Bank, Bank of Scotland , ACC Bank, Greencore, C&C

Above businesses and sami-state owned bodies have very bad track record of any competition and value for money when comes to customers or any consumer interest for that matter.

Actually last year IBEC received €1m from banks and protected state sector - semi-state companies. That is taxpayers money been "donated" to IBEC.

So chances are whatever IBEC said the opposite is good for customers.

Ok, thats all, i'm ready now to be told off.

hi Fat Fingers, I don't believe I ever called you an idiot. I may think that a comment on here is idiotic but it is not for me to determine if you are an idiot or indeed anything about you personally, including the size of your fingers.

I'm not into defending what IBEC is and isn't, thats for them to do. Though as a representative of the countries top employers I will give take their point on board.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

I said “seemingly been resolved”. In other words, representatives of Tesco are working things out with representatives of the employees.
Have they? Because last I heard, negotiations were ongoing.
Well you’ve already used the example of Primark, who were also alleged to be selling products produced by children. I also seem to recall Gap being exposed for employing child labour in India not too long ago (but of course they promised not to do it again, even though there was evidence that they were engaged in the same practice in the 90’s, if I recall correctly). In fact, as far as I’m aware, M&S are the only (major) supplier of clothing in this country who are adamant that child labour is not employed in the manufacturing of their products.
It was a counter to your statement that “the vast majority of Irish companies are honourable.”
Meaning what exactly? They enter the negotiations with guns and rottweilers?

Resolved means sorted out... ended, finished, so if they are still in talks with them its not resolved. Get it right! The fact that they were prepared to do it in the first place is disgusting. And before you say it... its not what business is all about. Business is not all about ripping off the staff and suppliers so customers can get cheaper goods.

The vast majority of Irish companies are honourable... I think there is a few more companies in Ireland including service suppliers, independent retailers, suppliers and manufactures than you possibly think. And please don't generalise everyone just because of one or two individuals.

Talk to the suppliers of Tesco and they will tell you about 'negotiations' with Tesco. Tesco will not affect their bottom line (e.g. a 12.6% growth for the first quarter of their financial year while everyone else is suffering and businesses are going under) and any reduction in price through a price war they engage in will be taken up by the supplier or producer. They don't negotiate, they demand. Its not like dairy farmers for example have any choice but to take the latest 15% reduction in their price since refusal will mean that Tesco will simply stop buying it from them. There is many many examples of Tesco 'negotiations' in the UK which is where there products will be coming from since they have ditched, or are in the process of ditching the Irish suppliers. So yay for lots of 'crap' businesses that stand up to Tesco that will go under! Thankfully there is strict conditions on the likes of meat otherwise that would be coming from god knows where.

Gap have a very strict policy on child labour and employ inspectors who monitor the factories to ensure they meet the policy. If a child is found manufacturing clothing by any of their suppliers then they pay for that childs education and also hold a job open for them. They also suspend the contract with the supplier immediately, which is exactly what happened in the recent incident in India you mentioned. There is many other companies like Gap that have similar policies. Like I said its about what is happening in the here and now. If a company has cleaned up its act and is traiding ethically then great. In clothing Tesco and Primark are not, if you want to add others to this list and have evidence of that then great. Just because Marks & Spencer have announced they don't engage in child labour doesn't mean they are the only ones. There is lots of companies who don't
But what I find objectionable with Tesco is that they are striving for exactly what they have done in the UK with both grocery and clothing and will step on anything, break or bend any agreements or even rules they can get away with... or take it to another country and break the rule there.

Why are they so opposed to a watchdog in the UK? They have a target to achieve £1billion from British local suppliers yet the Irish suppliers and customers don't get the same benefit from their stores in Ireland? Many people clearly are in favour of Tesco, but seem not to care the impact they have locally or on the world. I do encourage people to stop shopping there and stop this pretense that they are delivering is good competition. If they change their policies and give people a fair crack at competing against them then I will shop there again.

I am in favour of ending child labour in the world, are you?

You still haven't clarified if you have a vested interest in Tesco....

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

Resolved means sorted out... ended, finished, so if they are still in talks with them its not resolved. Get it right! The fact that they were prepared to do it in the first place is of disgusting.

So disgusting in fact that the staff went on strike (in disgust, of course) and absolutely refused to enter negotiations.

cfcj wrote: »

There is many many examples of Tesco 'negotiations' in the UK which is where there products will be coming from since they have ditched, or are in the process of ditching the Irish suppliers.

You complain about Tesco’s presence in Ireland while simultaneously complaining about the fact they are (apparently) ‘ditching’ Irish suppliers; that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, because in Tesco’s absence, the suppliers wouldn’t have Tesco’s to supply to. What’s stopping them from supplying somebody else? Also, would it not be reasonable to ask why Irish suppliers are losing Tesco’s business (if that is in fact the case)?

cfcj wrote: »

Thankfully there is strict conditions on the likes of meat otherwise that would be coming from god knows where.

And that would be bad because?

cfcj wrote: »

If a company has cleaned up its act and is traiding ethically then great. In clothing Tesco and Primark are not...

I’m pretty sure that Primark terminated the contracts with the relevant suppliers when Panorama discovered that child labour was being used in the manufacture of their produce. I also remember, earlier this year, that Tesco, among others, ceased importing cotton from Uzbekistan after it was revealed (by Newsnight, I think) that forced child labour was employed in the cotton’s harvesting.

cfcj wrote: »

If they change their policies and give people a fair crack at competing against them then I will shop there again.

What policies are you referring to? What would Tesco have to do in order for you to accept that their presence in the Irish market is good for competition?

cfcj wrote: »

I am in favour of ending child labour in the world, are you?

Of course I am.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

So disgusting in fact that the staff went on strike (in disgust, of course) and absolutely refused to enter negotiations.
You complain about Tesco’s presence in Ireland while simultaneously complaining about the fact they are (apparently) ‘ditching’ Irish suppliers; that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, because in Tesco’s absence, the suppliers wouldn’t have Tesco’s to supply to. What’s stopping them from supplying somebody else? Also, would it not be reasonable to ask why Irish suppliers are losing Tesco’s business (if that is in fact the case)?
And that would be bad because?
I’m pretty sure that Primark terminated the contracts with the relevant suppliers when Panorama discovered that child labour was being used in the manufacture of their produce. I also remember, earlier this year, that Tesco, among others, ceased importing cotton from Uzbekistan after it was revealed (by Newsnight, I think) that forced child labour was employed in the cotton’s harvesting.
What policies are you referring to? What would Tesco have to do in order for you to accept that their presence in the Irish market is good for competition?
Of course I am.

Its beginning to sound like I am talking with a member of Tesco management, though I'm sure your not... otherwise you would have surely mentioned the latest instore offers.

Its not 'apparently' they are ditching Irish products in favour of UK sourced it was Tesco that announced it!

What evidence do you have that Mandate or the workers in Cork refused to negotiate with Tesco before strike action? It is their democratic right to strike. So let me get this right, you are more annoyed that they would strike than what Tesco did to them?

Indeed what would we do without the great Tesco, sure us Irish can't fend for ourselves right? We need to let Tesco monopolise the market and as for who will the suppliers supply to... well nobody since Tesco are forcing out all the 'crap' competition out, nobody I'm guessing!

So would you rather Tesco and the supermarkets regulated food standards also?

Irish suppliers loosing out for two reasons they have 'negotiated' a cheaper price from their UK suppliers and also they like I said they have a £1billion target for their UK suppliers, ohh and it all looks nice for the UK shareholders that they are supporting British if they have made this target at the expense of the Irish.

Bottom line is if you buy a €3 or similarly priced top in Tesco or Primark, that it is undoubtably made in conditions that would be illegal in Ireland. And with your money you support this. You say you support the ending of child labour but don't seem to want to get Tesco and Primark to fess up to how they can charge the consumer so low and be walking out with such huge profits. All the time Tesco grow and grow and claim more of of the Irish market share. If they were interested in a fair completive market why not let the watchdog in?

Mr.Micro

cfcj wrote: »

I
Bottom line is if you buy a €3 or similarly priced top in Tesco or Primark, that it is undoubtably made in conditions that would be illegal in Ireland. And with your money you support this. You say you support the ending of child labour but don't seem to want to get Tesco and Primark to fess up to how they can charge the consumer so low and be walking out with such huge profits. All the time Tesco grow and grow and claim more of of the Irish market share. If they were interested in a fair completive market why not let the watchdog in?

cfcj since you appear to be stuck on Tesco and its wrondoings. What of all the other retailers in Ireland? Dunnes, Penneys, Heatons, Sportswear shops and whoever, are all their goods sourced from non child labour, free trade areas or is it just Tesco that you hold solely to blame ?

cfcj

Mr.Micro wrote: »

cfcj since you appear to be stuck on Tesco and its wrondoings. What of all the other retailers in Ireland? Dunnes, Penneys, Heatons, Sportswear shops and whoever, are all their goods sourced from non child labour, free trade areas or is it just Tesco that you hold solely to blame ?

I can't accuse any of the ones you mention because I cannot find evidence to support that Dunne's or enough evidence of Arcadia Group and the like engage in this... but if you find some then please share it. Though you need to ask yourself if it seems too cheap then ask them or if in doubt abstain.

The thread rules prevent me from making accusations on anyone I cannot substantiate. There is a wealth of information on Tesco PLC and Primark Stores Limited (which trade in Ireland as Penney's) and other companies like Walmart that do not trade in Ireland. Thing is that Tesco fast becoming the market leader and have aggressively dominated the market in a relatively short period of time both here and in the UK. The thing that they don't want you to know is how they did it.... they did it by the practices I have mentioned in my earlier posts.

I am all about fair competition and I believe the Irish, suppliers, customers and staff are being ripped off by the wiping out of fair competitors by Tesco.

Do you acknowledge Tesco's control the Irish market and what do you think will be the outcome of an over reliance on one company? A wipe out of Irish suppliers and the jobs they create.... Tesco by the way are not interested in creating jobs here. They have indicated that 140 jobs are to go in their Irish head office. Tills are being replaced by self service and some shelf replenishment/merchandising is contracted out to a company called Tradewins and worked by staff who don't avail of any of other staff benefits. This is a strategy similar to AMEX in the UK where the workforce in its call centres are hired, and employed by Adecco agency, they keep them on temporary contracts so they can avoid the accumulation of holiday entitlements and avoid pay rises.

Mr.Micro

cfcj wrote: »

Do you acknowledge Tesco's control the Irish market and what do you think will be the outcome of an over reliance on one company? A wipe out of Irish suppliers and the jobs they create.... Tesco by the way are not interested in creating jobs here. They have indicated that 140 jobs are to go in their Irish head office. Tills are being replaced by self service and some shelf replenishment/merchandising is contracted out to a company called Tradewins and worked by staff who don't avail of any of other staff benefits. This is a strategy similar to AMEX in the UK where the workforce in its call centres are hired, and employed by Adecco agency, they keep them on temporary contracts so they can avoid the accumulation of holiday entitlements and avoid pay rises.

I don't dispute the fact that Tesco want as much market share as possible or that they, like the likes of Walmart want total domination, wiping out any competition. Cost cutting is a major feature of any company be it letting staff go to replace them with automation. Its been happening in all sectors of industry and will if anything escalate IMO. Part time workers too are the norm, students, OAP's and retired people as it is cheaper to employ such people, again not limited to Tesco. I agree also that any monopoly be it a supermarket or whatever is bad for the consumer and again this is a growing trend but its up to Governments to have monopoly commissions to regulate such companies. I would like to see more Irish companies compete and Aldi and Lidl compete on a lower level. Its a start.

cfcj

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I don't dispute the fact that Tesco want as much market share as possible or that they, like the likes of Walmart want total domination, wiping out any competition. Cost cutting is a major feature of any company be it letting staff go to replace them with automation. Its been happening in all sectors of industry and will if anything escalate IMO. Part time workers too are the norm, students, OAP's and retired people as it is cheaper to employ such people, again not limited to Tesco. I agree also that any monopoly be it a supermarket or whatever is bad for the consumer and again this is a growing trend but its up to Governments to have monopoly commissions to regulate such companies. I would like to see more Irish companies compete and Aldi and Lidl compete on a lower level. Its a start.

I totally agree that replacing man with machine will continue and the norm that you outline. My concerns are in the long term, if we, consumers can choose to accept it or reject it.

On a green issue, but just to show the power of the consumer: In Germany consumers rejected the amount of packaging that was wrapped around the products they were buying by removing all excess packaging at the till at the time of purchase. Since then there has been a massive reduction in packaging in Germany. They did this because like us we are charged for the removal of the waste. The government can regulate to a certain degree but I really don't want a nanny state where the government tells me what to do and where to shop. I think its about the need to look past the price and not be tempted with a cheap wink.