Hypocritical much??

ShooterSF

The Recliner wrote: »

Dictionary definition of Banter

ban ter
–noun 1. an exchange of light, playful, teasing remarks; good-natured raillery.

–verb (used with object) 2. to address with banter; chaff.

–verb (used without object) 3. to use banter.

Those posts were not Banter, they were abusive, I fail to see how that can be defended

I agree that the posts outside of boards were in no way banter. I consider my sig banter. In the soccer forum I'd assume the recipient making a complaint/ writing a playful dig back is the best way to judge banter. Banter isn't restricted to the soccer forum either by the way.
What would be so wrong with dealing with the issue at the source though?

invincibleirish

The Recliner wrote: »

Dictionary definition of Banter

ban ter
–noun 1. an exchange of light, playful, teasing remarks; good-natured raillery.

–verb (used with object) 2. to address with banter; chaff.

–verb (used without object) 3. to use banter.

Those posts were not Banter, they were abusive, I fail to see how that can be defended

Maybe because you're a PI Mod that kind of language might be considered sensitive but shall i link to you sites where the language employed by Helix and chums is considered the norm? for they are legion. they took the piss out of her oh no! they don't like her boo hoo!. Seriously people need thicker skins if they are getting upset about whats written on the INTERNET!.

The Recliner

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

That's was the definition of banter, it has changed witha new generation. Outright abuse in online games is called banter these days, and is expected generally, in friendlies.

True but banter generally exists between people who know each other and are directly involved in the conversation

If it is said behind someones back or in a public place like it was then it was an attack and abuse IMO

ShooterSF wrote: »

I agree that the posts outside of boards were in no way banter. I consider my sig banter. In the soccer forum I'd assume the recipient making a complaint/ writing a playful dig back is the best way to judge banter. Banter isn't restricted to the soccer forum either by the way.
What would be so wrong with dealing with the issue at the source though?

And there is nothing wrong with having a bit of a laugh and messing with people or trying to get a rise out of them, we all do it, but when people cross the line into abuse and use the cover of banter I disagreee with that

Not my decision to make where to deal with the issue thankfully but for the record I don't agree with the action that was taken, if there was to be a ban applied I think it should have been a site ban but I am not sure a ban was warranted

Rev Hellfire

javaboy wrote: »

If he and the others did what they did on Boards, I wouldn't think we'd have nearly as many dissenters.

True, but that is where the confusion is.

Devore's point is that you can't complain about getting banned here for posting on another site while at the same time threatening the same for the actions of an individual here on this site.

Naturally there is a question mark as to if the threat on the other site was actually carried out.

javaboy

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

True, but that is where the confusion is.

Devore's point is that you can't complain about getting banned here for posting on another site while at the same time threatening the same for the actions of an individual here on this site.

I think the short simple answer is that "We're better than them".

The Recliner

invincibleirish wrote: »

Maybe because you're a PI Mod that kind of language might be considered sensitive but shall i link to you sites where the language employed by Helix and chums is considered the norm? for they are legion. they took the piss out of her oh no! they don't like her boo hoo!. Seriously people need thicker skins if they are getting upset about whats written on the INTERNET!.

I have been a PI mod a wet week and it really has nothing to do with the issue at hand

I don't care that behaviour like that is the norm elsewhere, I don't care for that sort of behaviour at all

I don't see the need for that sort of vitriolic outpouring of hate and scorn, but that is just me, plenty of other people are happy with it and that is fine it is their right

However it is not tolerated on this site which is why action was taken (we could go round and round in circles about it not being on this site etc but lets not)

ShooterSF

The Recliner wrote: »

And there is nothing wrong with having a bit of a laugh and messing with people or trying to get a rise out of them, we all do it, but when people cross the line into abuse and use the cover of banter I disagreee with that

Not my decision to make where to deal with the issue thankfully but for the record I don't agree with the action that was taken, if there was to be a ban applied I think it should have been a site ban but I am not sure a ban was warranted

Then we're in total agreement from what I can see. On the banter issue the big point to me is that both sides have to be into it and up for it.

Ludo

The Recliner wrote: »

However it is not tolerated on this site which is why action was taken (we could go round and round in circles about it not being on this site etc but lets not)

It is all well and good to say lets not go round and round in circles about it not being on this site...BUT that is the actual crux of the problem as far as I can see. So ignoring that "minor" fact means the whole discussion is pointless.

star-pants

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Devore's point is that you can't complain about getting banned here for posting on another site while at the same time threatening the same for the actions of an individual here on this site.

Naturally there is a question mark as to if the threat on the other site was actually carried out.

Very true.

Having read half of the feedback thread, and a good few pages linked of the EP thread. They kept saying to remove GY but said no there was no point. They also said if they did that the league (or whatever she's in) would be a ghost town. So obviously they both hate and like the fact she causes friction (if that's what they meant).
I think this is awfully out of hand, he said this, she said that, blah blah. Abuse is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated. If they're going to talk about boards.ie on another site and rally their troops to back each other up over here then let them. I don't believe it was just a case of 'quoted other users', it was done to get a rise, and a rise it did.
And now it's taken to getting a rise out of people here, which it also has.

It's all very messy. I don't read nor do I have an interest in the soccer forum, from what I can see it's a lot of hard work and a lot of passionate people (good or bad).

DeV is right from the point that you can't complain here about the ban after posting stuff about someone here on another site, when they were threatening to do the same on their site.
but then again, as I said, I don't have full knowledge of how all this works. We can only see the recent, the here and now. Not the general over view of how things are normally.
I don't agree with abuse but then again I'd probably tell someone to stuff themselves if they did abuse me.

The Recliner

Ludo wrote: »

It is all well and good to say lets not go round and round in circles about it not being on this site...BUT that is the actual crux of the problem as far as I can see. So ignoring that "minor" fact means the whole discussion is pointless.

My point being that there is a seperate thread for the discussion of the rights and wrongs of the ban already, no point in duplicating it here, not that there is no point in discussing it

invincibleirish

The Recliner wrote: »

However it is not tolerated on this site which is why action was taken (we could go round and round in circles about it not being on this site etc but lets not)

It did not occur on this site so lets stop going around in circles. Boards.ie is just one website amongst millions, do the Admins have authority over all the Internet or just this site? are GODS er mods entitled to mod and attempt to regulate content on other websites as GY has done?its one or the other. Beruthial said there was precedent, Dev said there was no precedent, first helix was temp banned then perma banned. feedback threads deleted and concerned posters banned. Something stinks about this whole situation.

Chucky the tree

DeVore wrote: »

I'll contribute my views and arguments about the main topic on the other thread but I cant believe this hasnt been said. Ok, let me get this right:

The argument is that no action should be taken against Helix because what was said was said on another forum.

I think you'll find the main argument is he shouldn't be permabanned. I'm pretty sure if helix was warned over his actions and he started a thread in feedback saying "I was warned because of something I posted on another forum, this is a disgrace etc etc" he would be told to get over it by everyone who is defending him now.

DeVore wrote: »

Whats truely ironic and hypocritical is that this is the thread which started it all.

Its a thread where two players are calling for Kev to "boot her from the league" because of... wait for it.... something she wrote on a totally different site (ie:Boards).

So, its completely "outrageous" for us to ban someone for a month from the Soccer forum but its perfectly ok to abuse and kick someone out of your game for things written on a "3rd party website".


Wow. The ironing is crunchy-nut.

DeV.

er, what? I dont know anything about the Xpert 11 league so I certainly was asking for GY to be banned or kicked from the league over something she posted on boards about it. It seems Kev, who set up the league, said he wasn't going to kick her out. Maybe you and the admins should of followed his example of not punishing someone based on what is written on another site?

Boston

Right or wrong of it all, the people on that Xpert forums seems to be exactly the type of people I'd rather not be here. Banter isn't two (or more) people coming together to attack another person whose on the outside, thats call bullying, and cowardice.

The Recliner

invincibleirish wrote: »

It did not occur on this site so lets stop going around in circles. Boards.ie is just one website amongst millions, do the Admins have authority over all the Internet or just this site? are GODS er mods entitled to mod and attempt to regulate content on other websites as GY has done?its one or the other. Beruthial said there was precedent, Dev said there was no precedent, first helix was temp banned then perma banned. feedback threads deleted and concerned posters banned. Something stinks about this whole situation.

Already responded to my badly worded post

The Recliner wrote: »

My point being that there is a seperate thread for the discussion of the rights and wrongs of the ban already, no point in duplicating it here, not that there is no point in discussing it

ntlbell

Boston wrote: »

Right or wrong of it all, the people on that Xpert forums seems to be exactly the type of people I'd rather not be here. Banter isn't two (or more) people coming together to attack another person whose on the outside, thats call bullying, and cowardice.

It's not like you're not surrounded by those "type" of people here.

They're just kept on a much tighter leash here.

Boston

ntlbell wrote: »

It's not like you're not surrounded by those "type" of people here.

They're just kept on a much tighter leash here.

Is a cluetrain fuktard and cluetrain fuktard if he makes no noise? I don't know, but there's only on way to find out...

oleras

DeVore wrote: »

Sorry, I started this thread to make a point. Its not a rerun of the other thread.

I'll lock it after i get back from lunch. Post on topic or not at all thanks.


DeV.

Typical management attidude...........




















90 min lunch break !! :pac:

Pherekydes

DeVore wrote: »

So, its completely "outrageous" for us to ban someone for a month from the Soccer forum but its perfectly ok to abuse and kick someone out of your game for things written on a "3rd party website".

And is Boards not above acting like an infantile 3rd party site? If what they are wanting to do is wrong (and it plainly is), then what Boards is doing to Helix is also wrong. It seems to be (like the other site) petty and vindictive. So where lies the hypocrisy?

GY created (pretty much) the Soccer forum and despite all the whinging about her moderation, the soccer forum proves to be the most popular forum on boards.

Mods are going to be unpopular with some users; it comes with the territory. They are also appreciated by those they effectively work for. I know this from personal experience. It makes it worthwhile (not that the forums I moderated were frequented by an 'element' like that).

GY, I don't know you, but why would you want to go and play with the infants in their sandbox? Rise above it.

Boards should rise above it, too. At the moment, Boards is playing at their game, and they are expert in it.

javaboy

Pherekydes wrote: »

the soccer forum proves to be the most popular forum on boards.

Ahem.

Ste05

Apologies but I haven't read the whole thread, I just got a feeling of it from the first few posts, but here's the hypocrisy of the whole thing IMO.

How many times has it been said "use your blogs, keep it off boards" or "go post it on another forum that doesn't have the same strict Irish Defamation laws" This is generally the answer to alot of the crap that comes up that people want to talk about, Dev, you know this to be true, because we've (us Poker mods and yourself) discussed it numerous times over the years as how to deal with lots of stuff that's come up.

Is there going to be a new precedent now that if someone posts a blog with stuff written that wouldn't be allowed on boards, are we to ban that person??

The long and short version of this is, it's a dreadful decision and should be immediately rectified. What happens off boards is none of boards concern it is quite simply out of our (mods) jurisdiction, similarly it should also be out of admins jurisdiction.

How is it different for someone to defame Mr. Flame of the month in their blog and abusing another boards user/mod/admin in the same blog or on a completely independant third party website.

Just because someone has a boards title on the group or similar is irrelevant, boards has grown to such an extent that in the wider World of Internetland, that nowadays saying someone is a boardsie is akin to saying someone is a Dub, or is a Poker player, it's just something that people feel apart of. It simply means that's where they have roots in the internet maybe even where they call "home", it doesn't mean that they are officially affiliated or in anyway sanctioned by boards.ie.

Going down this road is seriously a huge step too far, seriously who on earth do we think we are here???

Am I to start banning people from Poker that abuse other people in their blogs or on other forums such as 2+2, P5's etc. etc. etc.

What about, if a Poker forum regular abuses another Poker forum regular in a Motors thread, am I to ban them??

What if that post in Motors (or on 2+2, or on their Blog) was just spill over from a Poker forum argument that we warned them not to continue (and didn't in Poker, i.e. the only place I have jurisdiction). Once it doesn't happen on "our turf" I fail to see how we can do anything. Once people don't break the Poker forum charter or boards rules (while posting here) our hands are (and should be) tied.

Boards is great, but this is the first step down the road of taking ourselves FAR too seriously.

DeVore

DeVore wrote: »

I'll contribute my views and arguments about the main topic on the other thread but I cant believe this hasnt been said. Ok, let me get this right:

The argument is that no action should be taken against Helix because what was said was said on another forum.

Whats truely ironic and hypocritical is that this is the thread which started it all.

Its a thread where two players are calling for Kev to "boot her from the league" because of... wait for it.... something she wrote on a totally different site (ie:Boards).

So, its completely "outrageous" for us to ban someone for a month from the Soccer forum but its perfectly ok to abuse and kick someone out of your game for things written on a "3rd party website".


Wow. The ironing is crunchy-nut.

DeV.

This is the first time I've ever read something by you that I thought made almost no sense Dev.

The argument was not that no action should be taken because the comments were on a 3rd party website but rather that no action could be taken because to do so would be a flagrant abuse of power.

Obviously you can ban whomsoever you wish but having read both this thread and the other feedback thread I have come to the conclusion that Helix annoyed the Admins, both by his initial actions on another site as well as his overly zealous defence of his position, and as such you decided to perma-ban him from the Soccer Forum.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

By this point, Helix's help desk thread and his ranting PMs are doing something to the admin discussion that his original press release never did - they're tipping the scales against him.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Admins are now seriously pissed off with Helix's responses to what is, at this point, a temporary ban from soccer pending discussion by the admins of what should happen.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

At this point it's worth mentioning that there is one statement Helix reiterates that really rankles: he refers to the quotes calling GuanYin vulgar (presumably, as they're asterisked out) names, and refuses to take any responsibility for those quotes as he maintains he's reiterating someone else's words and therefore can't be held responsible for them.

This is not washing with the admins. At all. Of all points in the press release, the abusive terms are particulary unpleasant, and Helix has focused most of his handwashing on these terms - so not only does he maintain he's done nothing at all wrong because he posted on a different site, but he maintains that he's not even been abusive, because they're not his words.

1. You asked KevIRL to give context to the issue which I am sure he did and I also imagine it was similar to his post in the other feedback thread where he stated:

KevIRL wrote: »

Following a decision on the soccer forum to restrict some fantastic banter between 2 managers, some members of the boards X11 league posted their dissatisfaction with the decision on a diff board, they are not boards members however. Helix put together a press release using their quotes and with his co-admin status made himself as an 'FA member' in the release. Bearing in mind some of the press releases I've seen on the different x11 leagues I'm in, I thought it was extremely funny. I can understand that GY was unhappy, but maybe a PM to myself could have sorted something out, or help explain context. I dunno, the automatic ban seemed harsh.

Given this context you still maintained that you felt his comments were out of order? That may well be the case. However;

2. The title of this thread is "Hypocritical Much?". Minesajackdaniels states in the above quoted passage that the idea that a person who quotes the statements of others is not responsible for them "does not wash" with the admins. Given your recent ability to once more discuss the activities of a certain promoter I would be very interested to hear how your ideas on hypocrisy stand up to punishing someone for a comment they did not generate but merely facilitated the comments' publication for, in this instance, humourous purposes.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Can we stand over this as an exceptional circumstance because Helix is being such a dickhead?

A little personal abuse. Hypocritical much?



Overall Dev my thinking on this issue is that what Helix did was moronic. His attitude towards GuanYin is clear from the EP thread and it was obviously designed to elicit a response.

However, not one single piece of that matters. That action was taken outside the remit of Boards.ie and as such you have no right to take the action you have.

Helix's subsequent actions may well have warranted a banning but the central issue which remains is that he was initially banned for an action on a 3rd party site.

You have been aware for some time that a number of groups have sprung up and have affiliated themselves with Boards. You were very proud of that fact when RTE did a segment on the website and showcased Boardeaux, the Drama Group etc. If you now wish to control that name more rigidly then so be it, but I would advise strongly against doing so in such a way as has been done here.

Rev Hellfire

Perhaps the simplest solution is to ban users here from using the boards.ie name for groups/associations elsewhere.

From what I can see the only tenuous justification the admins here have for policing other sites is when the boards.ie name is used.

DeVore

I think if it had not had Boards.ie in the name and had not used the soccer forum to promote itself then I very much doubt the Admins would have an issue with what happened.

It did use us to get started, specifically it used something GY has helped built which is why it feels like a personal kick in the teeth and why we have reacted as we have.

Personally I wouldnt have given a sh*t as theres worse written about me out there but when it is one of our own so to speak, with those facts above taken into account, what are we supposed to do, just sit here and say "yeah, take us for fnckin idiots, abuse away". That isnt going to happen imho.

What do we do, simply look the other way?

DeV.

Spud83

DeVore wrote: »

I think if it had not had Boards.ie in the name and had not used the soccer forum to promote itself then I very much doubt the Admins would have an issue with what happened.

It did use us to get started, specifically it used something GY has helped built which is why it feels like a personal kick in the teeth and why we have reacted as we have.

Personally I wouldnt have given a sh*t as theres worse written about me out there but when it is one of our own so to speak, with those facts above taken into account, what are we supposed to do, just sit here and say "yeah, take us for fnckin idiots, abuse away". That isnt going to happen imho.

What do we do, simply look the other way?

DeV.

Remove the thread from the soccer forum and say we will no longer support your game while you abuse are mods in it.

Ask for the league name to be changed? Which has been done I believe.

EDIT: and then maybe a temp ban.

My name is URL

DeVore wrote: »

I think if it had not had Boards.ie in the name and had not used the soccer forum to promote itself then I very much doubt the Admins would have an issue with what happened.

It did use us to get started, specifically it used something GY has helped built which is why it feels like a personal kick in the teeth and why we have reacted as we have.

Personally I wouldnt have given a sh*t as theres worse written about me out there but when it is one of our own so to speak, with those facts above taken into account, what are we supposed to do, just sit here and say "yeah, take us for fnckin idiots, abuse away". That isnt going to happen imho.

What do we do, simply look the other way?

DeV.

A warning and a request to stop would have been a start

Jazzy

DeVore wrote: »

This thread is not about discussing the issue, I'm just spinning something off which struck me while reading that thread.

The indignation of Helix and his supporters pales a touch when you realise that they were a lot more vitriolic about kicking GY out of their league for things she posts on a different site.


Anyone need more sauce for their goose?

DeV.

i dont think guanyin got kicked from the league tho
helix got kicked from the soccer forum.
actual action > lines of text

invincibleirish

How about GY taking up the issue with the moderators on the websites in question instead of running back to boards.ie crying wolf?

eagle eye

DeVore wrote: »

Whats truely ironic and hypocritical is that this is the thread which started it all.

This didn't start it all. What started it all was way further back than that.

People are sick and tired of a moderator who in the eyes of most regular respected posters in the soccer forum is not up to the job. People are sick and tired of this moderator being protected by the Admins. People are sick and tired of not being able to say what they want to say about this mod without facing the wrath of the other mods/Admins if they say it on this site.

ShooterSF

DeVore wrote: »

I think if it had not had Boards.ie in the name and had not used the soccer forum to promote itself then I very much doubt the Admins would have an issue with what happened.

It did use us to get started, specifically it used something GY has helped built which is why it feels like a personal kick in the teeth and why we have reacted as we have.

Personally I wouldnt have given a sh*t as theres worse written about me out there but when it is one of our own so to speak, with those facts above taken into account, what are we supposed to do, just sit here and say "yeah, take us for fnckin idiots, abuse away". That isnt going to happen imho.

What do we do, simply look the other way?

DeV.

Alanmurphy's response if how I feel on the situation along with GY looking to get it resolved in the forum it happened in.
However can I ask, I've tried a lot to day on this but the words I bolded, who does that encompass? All members/mods and admins?

Permabear

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