Irish referendum on right to citizenship

samsham

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

turgon

I thought the referendum was to do with whether children born in Ireland are automatically citizens?

You say you child is Irish, how are they going to deport him? And to where?

turgon

27th Amendment to the Irish Constitution wrote:

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.

Where does this say your family will be "kicked out"?

greendom

turgon wrote: »

I thought the referendum was to do with whether children born in Ireland are automatically citizens?

You say you child is Irish, how are they going to deport him? And to where?

I think the worry is that the mother may be deported which will mean the child would have to leave too

samsham

turgon wrote: »

I thought the referendum was to do with whether children born in Ireland are automatically citizens?

You say you child is Irish, how are they going to deport him? And to where?

A lot of people taught the same as you. Children born in Ireland will always have citizenship. regarding my child. If anything was to happen to me my child has the right to live in Ireland, but her mother does not. You hardly think the mother would leave her here alone. The mother can be deported. which means the child goes too. I don't think thats fair. Do you

greendom

samsham wrote: »

A lot of people taught the same as you. Children born in Ireland will always have citizenship. regarding my child. If anything was to happen to me my child has the right to live in Ireland, but her mother does not. You hardly thing the mother would leave her here alone. The mother can be deported.
which means the child goes too. I don't think thats fair. Do you

Referenda are often such a bad idea. People really don't have a clue

samsham

greendom wrote: »

I think the worry is that the mother may be deported which will mean the child would have to leave too

Exactly every year I must attend a Garda immigration officer with my wife
to renew her yearly visa. If I am not present her spouse visa is no longer valid. Not being valid she can be subject to deportation. Like you said she is not going to leave her child here. Its a scary thought for me. I am from Waterford as Irish as you get. I am sure many more are in this predicament.

Mena

I'm in two minds about this one, and I'm saying that as someone who made use of the IBC scheme to get away from the repressive work permit system (read on before the feigned indignation makes you post a reply).

On the one hand, you had people coming into Ireland 7 and 8 months pregnant, their sole aim to abuse the system and be allowed to stay here based on the citizenship of their child, albeit they had only, in some cases, been in Ireland a few days. Clearly this had to be stopped, it devalued Irish citizenship and make a mockery of an already outdated and unable to cope immigration system.

On the other hand, people like me had been here over 5 years when we finally had our daughter, so in fairness, I don't feel I've "scammed" any system at all.

If I was actually allowed to vote in said referendum, I honestly could not say which way it would have gone, but quite possibly I would have towed the government line.

In your own case, I don't think you'd have anything to fear were you to suddenly die. The powers to deport in IBC cases may be discretionary, but I haven't seen them used "willy nilly" in fairness. I'd say you could be quite confident both your wife and your child could remain here in Ireland for the long term.

However, that being said, its not a certainty (such is anything to do with immigration in Ireland unfortunately), and clafirication of legal status should the worse happen in a case such as yours would be ideal, but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for it.

markopantelic wrote: »

66% who voted to change the referendum are ugly backward inbreds.

I'm not so sure. There was a valid concern in this area as I highlighted above.

markopantelic

66% who voted to change the referendum are ugly backward inbreds.

samsham

Mena wrote: »

I'm in two minds about this one, and I'm saying that as someone who made use of the IBC scheme to get away from the repressive work permit system (read on before the feigned indignation makes you post a reply).

On the one hand, you had people coming into Ireland 7 and 8 months pregnant, their sole aim to abuse the system and be allowed to stay here based on the citizenship of their child, albeit they had only, in some cases, been in Ireland a few days. Clearly this had to be stopped, it devalued Irish citizenship and make a mockery of an already outdated and unable to cope immigration system.

On the other hand, people like me had been here over 5 years when we finally had our daughter, so in fairness, I don't feel I've "scammed" any system at all.

If I was actually allowed to vote in said referendum, I honestly could not say which way it would have gone, but quite possibly I would have towed the government line.

In your own case, I don't think you'd have anything to fear were you to suddenly die. The powers to deport in IBC cases may be discretionary, but I haven't seen them used "willy nilly" in fairness. I'd say you could be quite confident both your wife and your child could remain here in Ireland for the long term.

However, that being said, its not a certainty (such is anything to do with immigration in Ireland unfortunately), and clafirication of legal status should the worse happen in a case such as yours would be ideal, but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for it.



I'm not so sure. There was a valid concern in this area as I highlighted above.

I know there are different circumstances but even a woman traveling on a plane at eight months pregnancy is thinking of her child not her. Would you not want the best for your family. I know people had a lot to think about.
But you don't use a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Our country is under populated. If we don't populate it quickly who going to pay for our growing old age pension. The referendum coincided with government elections. It was designed to appease fears of immigrants taking Irish jobs

ionix5891

Its sad ain't it?

all people care now is getting a mortgage an a wooden box within the Dublin suburbia

its a rat race and everyone is in it for themselves, theres alot of people like that in Ireland, must do terrible things to the psyche and sense of security

so much for cornerstone of the society being the family :rolleyes: i wonder has anyone being deported in this fashion yet? im sure we wont hear about it on news

Mena

samsham wrote: »

I know there are different circumstances but even a woman traveling on a plane at eight months pregnancy is thinking of her child not her. Would you not want the best for your family. I know people had a lot to think about.
But you don't use a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Our country is under populated. If we don't populate it quickly who going to pay for our growing old age pension. The referendum coincided with government elections. It was designed to appease fears of immigrants taking Irish jobs

To be fair, I don't blame those taking advantage of the system. I myself would do whatever it took to provide for and take care of my family. It was still and abuse and the government, any government could not in good conscious ignore it.

I do agree it was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, wanted to post that but forgot the exact phrase

ionix5891 wrote: »

so much for cornerstone of the society being the family i wonder has anyone being deported in this fashion yet? im sure we wont hear about it on news

A good few have been yes. Mostly from Nigeria from what I recall. Now I don't have the stats/data or references to back it up, but in most cases it seems the father or whatever was away for 4 or 5 years then suddenly shows up claiming residency. Been a good few cases in the courts.

markopantelic

imo over the next 20 years ireland should try to organise a controlled population growth, we should aim for a population of about 10 million by 2025 and none of that 'right to return' stuff that mcwilliams thinks we should do.

redout

samsham wrote: »

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

I understand were you are coming from but the amendement to the constitution was required as many a person was taking advantage and the Irish people were obviously aware of this and hence why the voted for it. I myself voted for it and am proud to have done so. There was many Non-Eu nationals being versed in this loophole back in their own countries and arriving here either heavily pregnant or getting pregnant only for the purpose to gain right to remain in the country. That in itself was wrong but what about all these poor unplanned and unwanted children in some instances who were born to parents who never wanted them in the first place but only for the sake to remain here. In your case I am sure if your wife brought it to the Departments attention were you to die then possibly something could be worked out.

samsham

Read the document recently released from Social welfare. They saved 250 million on catching welfare cheats. Reading the documents its clear it's our own guys defrauding the state not foreigners.

ionix5891

markopantelic wrote: »

imo over the next 20 years ireland should try to organise a controlled population growth, we should aim for a population of about 10 million by 2025 and none of that 'right to return' stuff that mcwilliams thinks we should do.

considering the next decade will more likely be very tough, i dont see how we can make that many babies to hit 10 million people (doubling the population)

unless the lights start going out

samsham

redout wrote: »

I understand were you are coming from but the amendement to the constitution was required as many a person was taking advantage and the Irish people were obviously aware of this and hence why the voted for it. I myself voted for it and am proud to have done so. There was many Non-Eu nationals being versed in this loophole back in their own countries and arriving here either heavily pregnant or getting pregnant only for the purpose to gain right to remain in the country. That in itself was wrong but what about all these poor unplanned and unwanted children in some instances who were born to parents who never wanted them in the first place but only for the sake to remain here. In your case I am sure if your wife brought it to the Departments attention were you to die then possibly something could be worked out.

I think parents everywhere will look for the best for their kids. But we as a nation are looking for a amnesty for our hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants in America. My point is this country can not sustain itself with its population. All research says we need a bigger population. This referendum accompanied a general election and was aimed at fears of foreigners taking Irish jobs,

truebluedub

At the time FF, FG and the PD's argued that they were closing a loophole and suggested that the maternity wards were flooded with foreign mothers coming in late in their pregnancies. McDowell claimed this info came from the Masters of Dublin's Maternity Hospitals. The Masters refuted this but the racist myth had already become common currency.

I voted against this referendum.

redout

samsham wrote: »

Read the document recently released from Social welfare. They saved 250 million on catching welfare cheats. Reading the documents its clear it's our own guys defrauding the state not foreigners.

The department recently done a series of spot checks in the dole office on something like 2,200 persons at random and found that 275 of them were scamming the dole and the finding they released said the majority of those caught were foreign nationals and not Irish. These were the Department own findings and reported through RTE back in april.

Link here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0406/welfare.html

lostexpectation

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

Joe C

lostexpectation wrote: »

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

How many ?

turgon

Apoligies to the OP, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Of course your spouse should be allowed to stay here.

In a case like this, wouldnt the easiest thing be for your wife to apply for citizenship? Given ye are narried and resident this shouldnt be to much bother. Although you wouldnt know I suppose.

Things like this should not be so wooly. It should be clearly outlined what the implications of your death would be.

samsham

turgon wrote: »

Apoligies to the OP, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Of course your spouse should be allowed to stay here.

In a case like this, wouldnt the easiest thing be for your wife to apply for citizenship? Given ye are narried and resident this shouldnt be to much bother. Although you wouldnt know I suppose.

Things like this should not be so wooly. It should be clearly outlined what the implications of your death would be.

you must be resident in a country for several years before being eligible to apply for citizenship. Sure maybe four years time, that is exactly what she will be doing. Just thought to myself when posting this, surely it must be a circumstance someone experienced before. Almost certain the same applies to people with American spouses. Of course its at the discretion of a minister, but then take a look at our ministers. Our former minister for integration Conor lennighan referring to Turkish people as Kababs. Would not fancy my chances with him..

sideshowsue

turgon wrote: »

Apoligies to the OP, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Of course your spouse should be allowed to stay here.

In a case like this, wouldnt the easiest thing be for your wife to apply for citizenship? Given ye are narried and resident this shouldnt be to much bother. Although you wouldnt know I suppose.

Things like this should not be so wooly. It should be clearly outlined what the implications of your death would be.

1. An applicant for naturalisation must have been legally resident in Ireland for 5 years before submission of the application.

2. Due to serious inefficiencies, the lack of accountability and transparency in the whole process, it takes at least 3 years from the original date of submission of the application for naturalisation for a decision. In short, it takes a total of 8 years to be naturalised (fulfillment of residency requirements + application processing times).

3. The legal residence of the OPs wife is entirely dependent on the subsistence of her marriage to an Irish national. Although it is true that following a divorce/separation, the non-EEA spouse has no further right to reside legally in the state, I think in the case of the death of the spouse, even the INIS could find the heart, sympathy and good sense to allow the non-EEA spouse to continue to reside in Ireland based on humanitarian grounds.

seamus

Shamsham, you only need to be married for three years before she can apply for citizenship, assuming that you've both been resident here for those three years.

I would imagine your situation is quite rare - that is, health scare early on in a marriage *and* a child in the marriage.

However, an Irish spouse dying before their foreign spouse applied for citizenship has surely occured before. I'm sure there's some rule in place. If you're really concerned, you could contact the INIS and ask them.

In any case, since deportations are usually decided upon by a judge, the odds of your wife being sent home based on the facts of her case would be minimal.

1. An applicant for naturalisation must have been legally resident in Ireland for 5 years before submission of the application.

This is not correct. The non-Irish spouse needs only to have been resident for 2 of the past 4 years and had one year's continuous residence before applying for residency. You also need to be married for at least three years. So theoretically one could apply for citizenship within two years of arriving in Ireland, assuming you'd been married for at least a year before arriving here.

sideshowsue

I stand corrected. I merely wanted to point out that the Irish naturalisation procedure is by no means a 'snap your fingers and it's done' process.

As someone who is currently going through the naturalisation process and hopes to see a positive and fruitful end to my application, it is frustrating to hear/read comments from those who think that the entire process takes a matter of months. It's a matter of years--long, frustrating years in which it is impossible to get any clear guidance or or even a guestimate as to when a decision will be taken.

Sorry for the mini rant.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Sympathise with you OP but there were far too many people taking advantage of that loophole and its no different in other european countries

is_that_so

Also sympathise but as posted your situation can be regularised in 2010. I have Asian friends who were part of the same rigmarole and they eventually became naturalised. Immigration control is required and no country can be without the wherewithal to address it.

samsham

is_that_so wrote: »

Also sympathise but as posted your situation can be regularised in 2010. I have Asian friends who were part of the same rigmarole and they eventually became naturalised. Immigration control is required and no country can be without the wherewithal to address it.

Don't think it's a simple as that. that's from someone dealing with emigration officials on a frequent basis. When I first brought my wife to emmigration, I was ashmed to be Irish. Firstly your wife is photographed and finger printed. Then issued with an National Garda immigration identification card and told she must carry it at all times or could face arrest or deportation. Its my wife were talking about not a criminal. Meanwhile our Government who implements this policy goes to Washington cap in hand looking for an amnesty for our illegals. What a shower of hyprocrites. Beleive me I know noone who got nuturalization in five years. You are only intitled to apply after three years.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

79% of Irish people voted for this change in the constitution. Now, to dismiss their legitmate concerns over this issue as simple racism is absurd. We live in a democracy, my friend. The people have a right to voice their opinions. If you dont like it try somewhere else.

In the most recent opinion poll on immigration "ALMOST TWO-THIRDS of adults in the State believe immigration policy should be made more restrictive given the worsening economic outlook". Are they all racist as well? Immigration is a major concern for some people at present, please stop using the racism card, any argument you may have is lost once you do so. It is demeaning to people who actually experience racism.

Now you claim we need major population growth to pay pensions. Well heres news for you, immigrants grow old too, they will need pensions in their later years. They dont live on air. So in effect, you are just delaying the inevitable. At the moment we are finding it difficult to provide services for the people already on this island. Education system stretched to the brink, students in prefabs, more cutbacks on the way. Health system is on par with the 3rd world. Social Welfare services at record levels. Do you really think importing more people is what we need at the moment, seriously?

PaulieD

lostexpectation wrote: »

the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

So 79% of the country is xenophobic. I find that hard to believe considering the numbers immigrating here.:rolleyes: