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Irish referendum on right to citizenship

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12357…11

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    #122
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    asdasd wrote: »
    Wheres (....)America.

    No, it was colonisation, rather a different thing.


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    #123
    opo
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭opo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I was responding to the suggestion that an irrational dislike of foreigners is somehow a perfectly natural and acceptable attitude. I guess you can interpret that as a smear, if it suits your argument to do so.

    I don't recall suggesting that everyone should be required to live with a foreigner as a matter of national policy. I do think that the attitude of automatic hostility towards non-Irish people should be held up to question every time it is presented as a perfectly rational and understandable phenomenon.

    I think you have lost the plot.

    You made the following statement:

    If people are concerned about having foreigners in the country, that pretty much makes them xenophobic by definition.

    I may be very concerned about high levels of legal and illegal immigration and still be indifferent to the individuals. I may even individually like them or dislike them. Thats part of the human condition.

    You, on the other hand, appear to want to convey some sort of super emphathy based on living with with a non-Irish person which might explain your bizzare statement.

    You have now moved on to posting about a very small minority of individuals who exhibit "automatic hostility towards non-Irish people".

    My point stands. We do not enact policy around the extremes. We enact policy based on the common good. If anything, we would restrict immigration if there was anything like the "automatic hostility" you imagine, for their sakes at least.

    I have both socialised and employed plenty of non-Irish people and don't throw bouquets at myself for not personally indicting these individuals for what I believe has been a poorly managed and badly abused system of immigration.

    No need to canonise yourself for being normal based on your strawman assumptions about everyone else.


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    #124
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    the exit poll showed people voted for the wrong reason, ie xenophobia

    My mother voted for it and also voted for the Nice Treaty on the same basis that it'll keep the "feckin' foreigners" out.


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    #125
    opo
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭opo


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    My mother voted for it and also voted for the Nice Treaty on the same basis that it'll keep the "feckin' foreigners" out.


    Has your mother no right to vote however she pleases?

    Would your mother personally harm an immigrant?


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    #126
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    My mother voted for it and also voted for the Nice Treaty on the same basis that it'll keep the "feckin' foreigners" out.

    Though I avoid anecdotes, I have to say I heard that a lot......


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    #127
    samsham
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭samsham


    asdasd wrote: »
    Come now. This is a Blame The Racist Irish thread.

    The OP's problem - totally unrealted to the citizenship referendum - is that the system for giving his wife citizenship is a bit slow. I ahve no idea why the referendum was even brought up.

    How do you come to that conclusion. The referendum result means in effect that were I to die, or even Divorce. My wife no longer would have the right to remain in this country. That in effect means My child would no be able to continue to live here either. The only way the child could live here would be to forcefully remove it from its mother. As for citizenship. It can take from entry into this country, as long as 7-8 years to get citizenship. Like I said we seem to afford more right to unborn children in this country that those alive .


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    #128
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Yes, the time to citizenship should be reduced. The fact that your wife lives here, that you have ties to the country, and that the child is Irish should expedite the process.

    Your son is an Irish Citizen, however. And that would be true without regard to the referendum (in fact because of you, he can be a citizen were he born outside the country).


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    #129
    samsham
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭samsham


    asdasd wrote: »
    Yes, the time to citizenship should be reduced. The fact that your wife lives here, that you have ties to the country, and that the child is Irish should expedite the process.

    Your son is an Irish Citizen, however. And that would be true without regard to the referendum (in fact because of you, he can be a citizen were he born outside the country).

    Yes but my point is every child should have the right to be with its parents. In some situations where the child's parent come from countries of dire poverty. A parent out of love and hope for a future for their child might leave their child to remain in Ireland therefore depriving the child of its natural parents. Nobody should have to make that choice.


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    #130
    bobbyjoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 798 ✭✭✭bobbyjoe


    Referendum was a disgrace. I remember that FF were very unpopular at the time seemed like pandering and scaremongering. If you are born here your Irish, if you marry an Irish person you should have all the same rights imo.


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    #131
    samsham
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭samsham


    It would in fact be interesting to see a court case relating to divorce of an Irish national and there foreign spouse. The foreign spouse has no longer a legal right to remain in Ireland. What would you think a court would do regards child custody. The child an Irish national. The mother a foreigner. The father fight for custody and reminds the court this child is an Irish citizen and he wants access to his child. On the other hand the mother too is demanding her child return to her country of origin. I would imagine this would pose great difficulty for the judicial system.

    Do you send the child home with the mother depriving the right to access to the father?
    Do you allow the child remain here in its county of origin and deny it the right to its mother?

    be very interesting I think


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    #132
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    bobbyjoe wrote: »
    If you are born here your Irish, if you marry an Irish person you should have all the same rights imo.
    Works for me.
    I'd go a bit further:

    If you can a) get a job and b) do it properly: Welcome to Ireland, here's your passport & RSI number.

    The real problem here is and has always been a home grown Irish problem.

    Is there anywhere we can deport the 10th generation worthless Irish scroungers to?

    Any chance of Australia re-opening its borders for transported criminals?


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    #133
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    opo wrote: »
    You made the following statement:

    If people are concerned about having foreigners in the country, that pretty much makes them xenophobic by definition.

    I may be very concerned about high levels of legal and illegal immigration and still be indifferent to the individuals. I may even individually like them or dislike them. Thats part of the human condition.
    Ah, I see. You're seeking to redefine xenophobia as some sort of specific antipathy towards individual foreigners; whereby a general antipathy towards large groups of foreigners is simply an intrinsic part of human nature and as such not only acceptable but positively desirable.

    Sorry, not playing that game. If you have a problem with foreigners qua foreigners, you're a xenophobe.
    No need to canonise yourself for being normal based on your strawman assumptions about everyone else.
    I wasn't canonising myself (your strawman comment is ironic); I certainly wouldn't claim that you're canonising yourself on the basis of your assertion that some of your best friends are etc.


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    #134
    markopantelic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 538 ✭✭✭markopantelic


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Works for me.
    I'd go a bit further:

    If you can a) get a job and b) do it properly: Welcome to Ireland, here's your passport & RSI number.

    The real problem here is and has always been a home grown Irish problem.

    Is there anywhere we can deport the 10th generation worthless Irish scroungers to?

    Any chance of Australia re-opening its borders for transported criminals?

    Can I be a criminal too?;)

    I think anyone who wants to be a valuable member of Irish society and plans on creating a new life here should be given citizenship.

    I believe our immigration should favour people in poorer areas of the world. I mean I know a family and the rest of his family is in Iraq, they should be allowed to come and make life in Ireland.


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    #135
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd



    I think anyone who wants to be a valuable member of Irish society and plans on creating a new life here should be given citizenship.

    I believe our immigration should favour people in poorer areas of the world.

    Anybody? Fantastic. How may do you think would come? would you draw the line at 10M? 100M? 200M? 500M? What now?

    ( And I bet you would not be competing with these "poorest" citizens for jobs. The cost of upper middle class liberalism is borne by the poor. Hence what we see in the European elections - a rise for the far right, centre right, and a collapse of the left)


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    #136
    markopantelic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 538 ✭✭✭markopantelic


    I live in an area of Dublin city with highest concentration of immigrants, well near to it, I'm not upper middle class.

    Oh and I don't mean 'everybody' should be allowed in, society would most likely collapse but if someone lives here already they should have citizenship if their child is born here.

    I favour a fair immigration policy which benefits everyone.


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    #137
    opo
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭opo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Ah, I see. You're seeking to redefine xenophobia as some sort of specific antipathy towards individual foreigners; whereby a general antipathy towards large groups of foreigners is simply an intrinsic part of human nature and as such not only acceptable but positively desirable.
    QUOTE]

    That's some leap.

    Why would anyone desire such antipathy and where did I imply such a thing?

    If I discover a 100,000 people are about to or have entered my community and we have only one school, am I a xenophobe if I am concerned?


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    #138
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    opo wrote: »
    That's some leap.

    Why would anyone desire such antipathy and where did I imply such a thing?
    OK, to suggest it's desirable is a stretch, but you are certainly going to lengths to justify it.
    If I discover a 100,000 people are about to or have entered my community and we have only one school, am I a xenophobe if I am concerned?
    Of course not. But would it make a difference to you whether the new arrivals were Irish or not?


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    #139
    opo
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭opo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    But would it make a difference to you whether the new arrivals were Irish or not?

    Of course it would when there is a fundamental difference of having a choice in the matter or not.


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    #140
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    markopantelic wrote: »
    Can I be a criminal too?;)

    I think anyone who wants to be a valuable member of Irish society and plans on creating a new life here should be given citizenship.

    I believe our immigration should favour people in poorer areas of the world. I mean I know a family and the rest of his family is in Iraq, they should be allowed to come and make life in Ireland.

    How many people should be allowed in to Ireland? You do realise there are no jobs available? You do realise we have over 400,000 people on social welfare? You do realise we cannot absorb the world and his mother? You do realise we do not have the facilities for the population that is already here and further cutbacks are inevitable?

    You know a poor family in Iraq? Is it our responsibility to help them out? Do you honestly think anyone who wants to come here and start a new live should be allowed? Who is going to pay for this? You do realise that if your immigrant policies where implented we would also become a 3rd world country.

    PS Wheres your proud to be jewish signature gone? And you claim to hate nationalism?:rolleyes:


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    #141
    opo
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭opo


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    No, but like a lot of people she would complain about "all these foreigners" with their free cars and benefits and free houses etc. no matter how erroneous the statement may be.

    Bless.


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    #142
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    opo wrote: »
    Of course it would when there is a fundamental difference of having a choice in the matter or not.
    I have no idea what that means.


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    #143
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    markopantelic wrote: »
    imo over the next 20 years ireland should try to organise a controlled population growth, we should aim for a population of about 10 million by 2025 and none of that 'right to return' stuff that mcwilliams thinks we should do.

    I disagree with you here, I think that it is important that we have a right to return for people who have Irish relatives to the third generation. We should respect those who have had Irish roots and try to give them a livelihood here should they return.

    We already have a right to return in Ireland anyway, which is pretty similar to the one that already exists in the State of Israel for diaspora Jews to live there.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return - Look at the Irish section. Infact according to this the Minister responsible for immigration can grant citizenship to anyone who can demonstrably prove their Irish roots further than the 3rd generation.


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    #144
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    asdasd wrote: »
    How may do you think would come? would you draw the line at 10M? 100M? 200M? 500M? What now?
    We're talking about Ireland, not Valhalla.

    The streets aren't actually paved with gold, there aren't 500M jobs on monster.ie (despite the best efforts of some recruitment agencies) and those 500 million people will not be entitled to social welfare.

    Market forces will limit the influx without the need for additional 'controls'.


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    #145
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Jakkass wrote: »
    We should respect those who have had Irish roots and try to give them a livelihood here should they return.
    Why?
    What more has an australian shìtkicker with 1/8th Irish blood got to offer the country than a chinese chef or a polish plasterer?

    Why should the contents of your chromasomes give you priority over someone with more useful skills?


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    #146
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    PaulieD wrote: »
    How many people should be allowed in to Ireland? You do realise there are no jobs available? You do realise we have over 400,000 people on social welfare?

    You do realise that a fair few immigrants are helping to pay for the dole queue like myself.
    You do realise we cannot absorb the world and his mother?

    You do realise that Ireland isn't all that desirable a place to relocate. I'm starting to be reminded of why I left America and how similar this sounds.
    You do realise we do not have the facilities for the population that is already here and further cutbacks are inevitable?

    You don't have facilities because your government has squandered the wealth that all PAYE have worked our asses off for. Keeping foreignors out aint going to make it any better.
    You know a poor family in Iraq? Is it our responsibility to help them out? Do you honestly think anyone who wants to come here and start a new live should be allowed? Who is going to pay for this? You do realise that if your immigrant policies where implented we would also become a 3rd world country.

    You government should have thought of that before it participating in the shenanigans there. I'm all for chickens coming home to roost.


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    #147
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Jakkass wrote: »
    We already have a right to return in Ireland anyway, which is pretty similar to the one that already exists in the State of Israel for diaspora Jews to live there.

    ...and look how well that's worked out. :rolleyes:
    Thats not a great parallel for your argument there.


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    #148
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    You do realise that a fair few immigrants are helping to pay for the dole queue like myself.

    Not related to the question of how many we leave in. Is it 10 million? 20 million?
    You do realise that Ireland isn't all that desirable a place to relocate. I'm starting to be reminded of why I left America and how similar this sounds.

    Its clearly desirable enough. Rule of law. High Wages. Low enough crime rate. Nice scenery. The last is irrelevent though. People move until it is not in their economic interests to do so, until wages equalise, if there are not border controls.
    You don't have facilities because your government has squandered the wealth that all PAYE have worked our asses off for. Keeping foreignors out aint going to make it any better.

    Acutally it might, since say - 10 million people - would obviously stretch resources.
    You government should have thought of that before it participating in the shenanigans there. I'm all for chickens coming home to roost.

    It's "your" govenrment now. i thought you were a tax payer.

    The Iraq war was wrong, Ireland's involvment minmal, and wasnt asked of the people. We still get to control our borders.


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    #149
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Why?
    What more has an australian shìtkicker with 1/8th Irish blood got to offer the country than a chinese chef or a polish plasterer?

    Some things are also more important than qualifications. I think ancestral heritage is something that should be valued up until about the third generation. I see no issue with it. Perhaps it would be more fair if they had to give up the citizenship to their former country in order to get Irish citizenship.
    Gurgle wrote: »
    Why should the contents of your chromasomes give you priority over someone with more useful skills?

    I've explained this above. I feel both are important.


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    #150
    Mena
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    asdasd wrote: »
    It's "your" govenrment now. i thought you were a tax payer.

    A tax payer with no say in the national government though.


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    #151
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    A tax payer with no say in the national government though.

    None of us had much say in the StopOver.

    But I take the point.


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