Irish referendum on right to citizenship

sovtek

asdasd wrote: »

None of us had much say in the StopOver.

But I take the point.

Y'all voted for it when you voted FF. Again chickens/roost.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have no idea what that means.

If 10,000 Irish people decide to move into my community and there is only one school there is little I can do about it in the short term.

If 10,000 foreigners decide to immigrate to Ireland and enter my community I can at least ask for immigration to be regulated when it appears that carrying capacity is being stretched.

We do this.

It's not xenophobia. It's common sense.

I know this a poor example of the point I am trying to make.

I am sorry if this is baffling to you but if you stop trying to hammer a racism angle in, it might start to make sense.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

If 10,000 Irish people decide to move into my community and there is only one school there is little I can do about it in the short term.

If 10,000 foreigners decide to immigrate to Ireland and enter my community I can at least ask for immigration to be regulated when it appears that carrying capacity is being stretched.

You're arguing from your conclusion. You're saying that you wouldn't have less of a problem with 10,000 Irish people moving in because there's nothing you can do about it; whereas 10,000 foreigners would be a problem because it can in theory be prevented.

The real question is whether government policy should have allowed housing for 10,000 people to be built without also providing for the required infrastructure and services - which has no bearing on whether they're Irish newcomers or not.

I am sorry if this is baffling to you but if you stop trying to hammer a racism angle in, it might start to make sense.

I'm not trying to hammer a racism angle in. I'm pointing out that having an issue with foreigners in the country is xenophobia.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're arguing from your conclusion. You're saying that you wouldn't have less of a problem with 10,000 Irish people moving in because there's nothing you can do about it; whereas 10,000 foreigners would be a problem because it can in theory be prevented.

The real question is whether government policy should have allowed housing for 10,000 people to be built without also providing for the required infrastructure and services - which has no bearing on whether they're Irish newcomers or not. I'm not trying to hammer a racism angle in. I'm pointing out that having an issue with foreigners in the country is xenophobia.

Developers build houses far quicker than Governments build schools. This has been proved in this country and has also coincided with mass immigration.

You are fixated on xenophobia and smearing anyone with the remotest concerns about immigration with a fear of the individuals rather than the consequences of their unregulated inflows.

This attempt to perpetually canonise yourself whilst damning others is rather sad but I suspect you feel great about yourself pursuing it.

Perhaps there's a nice little complex with your name on it.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

Developers build houses far quicker than Governments build schools.

That's because governments allow developers to do so. That's a problem with government policy and lack of forward planning; it has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. It's every bit as much a problem for small towns that have had large influxes of commuters, for example.

You are fixated on xenophobia and smearing anyone with the remotest concerns about immigration with a fear of the individuals rather than the consequences of their unregulated inflows.

You're doing it again: attempting to redefine xenophobia as hatred directed towards individual foreigners, in order to claim that anger directed to entire groups of people on no other basis than that they are foreigners is perfectly acceptable.

This attempt to perpetually canonise yourself whilst damning others is rather sad but I suspect you feel great about yourself pursuing it.

Perhaps there's a nice little complex with your name on it.

That's just a blatant ad-hominem that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic.

PaulieD

sovtek wrote: »

You do realise that a fair few immigrants are helping to pay for the dole queue like myself.



You do realise that Ireland isn't all that desirable a place to relocate. I'm starting to be reminded of why I left America and how similar this sounds.



You don't have facilities because your government has squandered the wealth that all PAYE have worked our asses off for. Keeping foreignors out aint going to make it any better.



You government should have thought of that before it participating in the shenanigans there. I'm all for chickens coming home to roost.

You are American. Dont you dare lecture an Irish man about the war in Iraq. Its your war, we allowed you yanks stop off in Shannon. End of. Your compatriots are the ones blitzing the place. Not us, paddies.

If Ireland is not a desirable place to relocate too, why have thirty odd thousand foreigners applied for PPS numbers this year alone. Also, the government had to open emergency schools in parts of Dublin for recently arrived foreigners. I put this to you, prove foreigners,as a whole, benefit the economy.

If I was a guest in another persons country, I would not be so sanctimonious.

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're arguing from your conclusion. You're saying that you wouldn't have less of a problem with 10,000 Irish people moving in because there's nothing you can do about it; whereas 10,000 foreigners would be a problem because it can in theory be prevented.

The real question is whether government policy should have allowed housing for 10,000 people to be built without also providing for the required infrastructure and services - which has no bearing on whether they're Irish newcomers or not. I'm not trying to hammer a racism angle in. I'm pointing out that having an issue with foreigners in the country is xenophobia.

So you are saying nobody should have an issue with immigration, other wise they are xenophobic?

oscarBravo

PaulieD wrote: »

So you are saying nobody should have an issue with immigration, other wise they are xenophobic?

No, that's not what I'm saying. If you want to know what I'm saying, read what I wrote. If any specific thing is unclear, I'll be happy to clarify.

Het-Field

THe case of Lobe v Ossayande (2003) dictated that a referendum needed to be held. The judgement of the case reflected the wording of the Referendum Bill. It was the constitutional thing to do, as it didnt interfere with our "separation of powers" model which exists in Ireland. The "loophole" was closed by the court's decision in the aformentioned case, it was given constitutional validity by the Irish people in 2004.

It was a brave thing to do by Michael McDowell, which was not racist, but constitutional. People had a chance to vote it down, but they chose otherwise. The referendum was not racist. It was responding to a growing trend of asylum abuse. To pear it down to a few individual cases would unnecessairly blur the lines. While I sympathise with the OP, I dont believe that there was anything racially motivated about the referendum, and to claim otherwise is just ignorance of the law, and our constitution.

asdasd

That's because governments allow developers to do so. That's a problem with government policy and lack of forward planning; it has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. It's every bit as much a problem for small towns that have had large influxes of commuters, for example.

Fail.

The issue is not the number of houses built. The would have immigrated anyway ( for better wages), built housing or not, and shacked up more to a room if necessary. Probably pushing up rent even more.

The issue is the increase in the number of people in an area who consumed resources, like schooling and added ancilliary costs to that schooling, and made it difficult - i.e the number of different languages in certain parts of the country in certain schools.

There are other examples.

This effect was on the working and lower middle classes. The upper middle classes live ghettoised by distance from the problems, from where they get plush jobs in the Irish Times, RTE, or "Equality Agencies" ( which actually promoted more division). They produce the "any mention of immigration is Racist" ideologies which permeate this State, and our neighbour.

In other news the only far left wing group which did any way well in the EP elections in the UK was not the SWP, and the other "anti-fascist" muppets, but the socialist Labour party - Scargills breakaway group which opposes the EU as it opposed the Free movement of Capital, and Labour.

That was the old far left, until the identity politics muppets took over the entire left.

Nodin

asdasd wrote: »

They produce the "any mention of immigration is Racist" ideologies which permeate this State, and our neighbour.

.

As the vast majority of movement is from the acession states, but the debate usually refers to muslims, nigerians and the old classic, the ineffable "asylum seeker", its hardly suprising the accusation arises.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're doing it again: attempting to redefine xenophobia as hatred directed towards individual foreigners, in order to claim that anger directed to entire groups of people on no other basis than that they are foreigners is perfectly acceptable. .

Another one of your leaps I see. Where did I use the word hatred in my posts or define xenophobia or suggest that we should be angry at immigrants?

As I keep pointing out to you, it is entirely possible to have legitimate concerns about immigration without being phobic about immigrants.

HollyB

samsham wrote: »

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

I don't see how the Citizenship Referendum changed the legal situation for your family. Your child is entitled to Irish citizenship because you are Irish, not because of his place of birth. The referendum didn't end the right of parents of Irish born children to live in Ireland, the Lobe & Osayande Supreme Court case of 2003 established that being the parent of an Irish citizen child wasn't a bar to the deportation of the child's parents.

In your case, I'd say that it would be unlikely that, in the event of your death, that your wife and child would be deported, given that your child would have a deeper connection to Ireland than the country simply being his place of birth, ie. if you have extended family here, the argument could be made that your child has the right to know his Irish grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins. However, given your health scare, if you are worried, I'd recommend getting in touch with your local T.D., and asking him or her to petition the Minister for Justice on your family's behalf. It may be possible for your wife's application for citizenship to be fast-tracked, or for her to be granted permanent residency, if there are special reasons for an exception to be made.

It can't hurt to ask.

samsham

HollyB wrote: »

I don't see how the Citizenship Referendum changed the legal situation for your family. Your child is entitled to Irish citizenship because you are Irish, not because of his place of birth. The referendum didn't end the right of parents of Irish born children to live in Ireland, the Lobe & Osayande Supreme Court case of 2003 established that being the parent of an Irish citizen child wasn't a bar to the deportation of the child's parents.

In your case, I'd say that it would be unlikely that, in the event of your death, that your wife and child would be deported, given that your child would have a deeper connection to Ireland than the country simply being his place of birth, ie. if you have extended family here, the argument could be made that your child has the right to know his Irish grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins. However, given your health scare, if you are worried, I'd recommend getting in touch with your local T.D., and asking him or her to petition the Minister for Justice on your family's behalf. It may be possible for your wife's application for citizenship to be fast-tracked, or for her to be granted permanent residency, if there are special reasons for an exception to be made.

It can't hurt to ask.

Believe me I wrote to TD's who wrote to the minister of foreign affairs on my behalf. I think you misguided if you think the wheels of politics move any faster than that of justice. Firstly for a minister to look at our case on compassionate grounds. I would have to be six foot under. No comfort to me. I should say I am not dyeing. I just said after a health scare it got me thinking. Also here people say there concerned about immigration. Considering most of our immigration is from the EU, and the Lisbon treaty when passed will open the way for new countries to join and freedom of movement that follows. Our governments immigration policy if anything seems a little confused.

opo

samsham wrote: »

Believe me I wrote to TD's who wrote to the minister of foreign affairs on my behalf. I think you misguided if you think the wheels of politics move any faster than that of justice. Firstly for a minister to look at our case on compassionate grounds. I would have to be six foot under. No comfort to me. I should say I am not dyeing. I just said after a health scare it got me thinking. Also here people say there concerned about immigration. Considering most of our immigration is from the EU, and the Lisbon treaty when passed will open the way for new countries to join and freedom of movement that follows. Our governments immigration policy if anything seems a little confused.

If I could cut to the chase, deportations of the most blatant abusers of the asylum system, in their tens of thousands, remain such a rarity so as to still make national news.

You have little to worry about.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

You are American. Dont you dare lecture an Irish man about the war in Iraq. Its your war, we allowed you yanks stop off in Shannon. End of. Your compatriots are the ones blitzing the place. Not us, paddies.

If Ireland is not a desirable place to relocate too, why have thirty odd thousand foreigners applied for PPS numbers this year alone. Also, the government had to open emergency schools in parts of Dublin for recently arrived foreigners. I put this to you, prove foreigners,as a whole, benefit the economy.

If I was a guest in another persons country, I would not be so sanctimonious.

How can you ask for proof that foreigners benefit the economy. You been in a hospital lately. Your Doctors are mostly foreign. This Irish ones are around the globe in Private practice. Mary Harney went to the Philippines to bring nurses here . Our construction leaders went to Eastern Europe to bring in Labor to fuel the boom. What about Lidl and Aldi and McDonald's. All the jobs we looked down our noses at. During the boom 400,000 came and got work added to the tax take. And yes at the same time 100.000 home grown lazy ****es were claiming welfare. How many chinese takaways do you see in this country. How in your opinion are they not adding to the economy. Even the low paid, not paying taxes pay indirect taxi on purchases. Explain yourself!

samsham

opo wrote: »

If I could cut to the chase, deportations of the most blatant abusers of the asylum system, in their tens of thousands, remain such a rarity so as to still make national news.

You have little to worry about.

whats your opinion on this. suppose a couple, the mother foreign national. Dad Irish got divorced. had kids. Mother now not entitled to residency as she is no longer spouse. Dad wants access rights to kids. Mother says if state is to deport her she wants kids with her. Dad has legal rights to access. Mum has also legal rights to be with her child. Don't you think lawyers would tear this legislation to shreds

opo

samsham wrote: »

whats your opinion on this. suppose a couple, the mother foreign national. Dad Irish got divorced. had kids. Mother now not entitled to residency as she is no longer spouse. Dad wants access rights to kids. Mother says if state is to deport her she wants kids with her. Dad has legal rights to access. Mum has also legal rights to be with her child. Don't you think lawyers would tear this legislation to shreds

I cannot remember a lawyer going bankrupt either way. Can you?

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

Believe me I wrote to TD's who wrote to the minister of foreign affairs on my behalf. I think you misguided if you think the wheels of politics move any faster than that of justice. Firstly for a minister to look at our case on compassionate grounds. I would have to be six foot under. No comfort to me. I should say I am not dyeing. I just said after a health scare it got me thinking. Also here people say there concerned about immigration. Considering most of our immigration is from the EU, and the Lisbon treaty when passed will open the way for new countries to join and freedom of movement that follows. Our governments immigration policy if anything seems a little confused.

Lisbon has nothing to do with immigration.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

How can you ask for proof that foreigners benefit the economy. You been in a hospital lately. Your Doctors are mostly foreign. This Irish ones are around the globe in Private practice. Mary Harney went to the Philippines to bring nurses here . Our construction leaders went to Eastern Europe to bring in Labor to fuel the boom. What about Lidl and Aldi and McDonald's. All the jobs we looked down our noses at. During the boom 400,000 came and got work added to the tax take. And yes at the same time 100.000 home grown lazy ****es were claiming welfare. How many chinese takaways do you see in this country. How in your opinion are they not adding to the economy. Even the low paid, not paying taxes pay indirect taxi on purchases. Explain yourself!

Sending 1.5 billion home per year. http://baltic-ireland.ie/2008/08/3024/

20% of dole claimants are foreign nationals. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/snmhqlidkf/rss2/

Cost of teaching immigrants english exceeds 126 million. http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/cost-of-teaching-english-to-immigrants-exceeds-8364126m-1372313.html

Massive welfare fraud committed by foreign nationals. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0911/1156791558637.html

90 million on child benefits for children not residing in the state. http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/02/21/story55787.asp

25% of jailed criminals are foreign nationals. http://breaking.tcm.ie/ireland/kfidkfojcwoj/

150 million being claimed in rent supplements. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/united-nations-of-claimants-costing-state-8364150m-1446654.html

Most of the immigrants are used as cheap labour, therefore pay little tax as they are on minimum wage(or lower).http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1216/breaking70.htm

Irish health service workers are being forced abroad as there are no jobs for them. Why are we importing foreigners when we are exporting our own?

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

Lisbon has nothing to do with immigration.

The failure of all countries to ratify the agreement has postponed new entrants. Logic would imply then that ratifying the agreement kicks the door wide open.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

The failure of all countries to ratify the agreement has postponed new entrants. Logic would imply then that ratifying the agreement kicks the door wide open.

Have you read the treaty? I have, must have missed that bit, care to point it out to me?

I repeat, the treaty has nothing to do with immigration. Nice did, yes, but Lisbon does not.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

Sending 1.5 billion home per year. http://baltic-ireland.ie/2008/08/3024/

20% of dole claimants are foreign nationals. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/snmhqlidkf/rss2/

Cost of teaching immigrants english exceeds 126 million. http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/cost-of-teaching-english-to-immigrants-exceeds-8364126m-1372313.html

Massive welfare fraud committed by foreign nationals. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0911/1156791558637.html

90 million on child benefits for children not residing in the state. http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/02/21/story55787.asp

25% of jailed criminals are foreign nationals. http://breaking.tcm.ie/ireland/kfidkfojcwoj/

150 million being claimed in rent supplements. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/united-nations-of-claimants-costing-state-8364150m-1446654.html

Most of the immigrants are used as cheap labour, therefore pay little tax as they are on minimum wage(or lower).http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1216/breaking70.htm

Irish health service workers are being forced abroad as there are no jobs for them. Why are we importing foreigners when we are exporting our own?

These articles refer to the 500.000 invited immigrants to our country, whom some are now unemployed. Most having contributed to prsi and entitled to claim it back. There part of the EU. You know that organization that took us out of the gutter. So because the boom is gone, you think these people should be gone too.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

These articles refer to the 500.000 invited immigrants to our country, whom some are now unemployed. Most having contributed to prsi and entitled to claim it back. There part of the EU. You know that organization that took us out of the gutter. So because the boom is gone, you think these people should be gone too.

The Irish people invited nobody. IBEC and Fianna Fail did. These people are guest workers and are now a drain on the economy. We are bankrupt and cannot affford this, refund their PRSI and suggest they return home.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

Have you read the treaty? I have, must have missed that bit, care to point it out to me?

I repeat, the treaty has nothing to do with immigration. Nice did, yes, but Lisbon does not.

who said its in the treaty? Read what I am writing. Until all ratify the agreement new entrants are on hold. Where am I saying its in the agreement. I am pointing out the result of full ratification is new entrants are no longer on hold. Free to enter

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

who said its in the treaty? Read what I am writing. Until all ratify the agreement new entrants are on hold. Where am I saying its in the agreement. I am pointing out the result of full ratification is new entrants are no longer on hold. Free to enter

We are free to put a work permit system in place. Like we should have done for all the accession states.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

We are free to put a work permit system in place. Like we should have done for all the accession states.

only for a short period. ultimately freedom of movement is an entitlement of all EU countries

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

only for a short period. ultimately freedom of movement is an entitlement of all EU countries

It will ultimately be the death knell of the EU.

oscarBravo

PaulieD wrote: »

It will ultimately be the death knell of the EU.

Whereas dismantling its pillars will ultimately strengthen it, I suppose.

Well, as long as it keeps the bloody foreigners out...

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

Whereas dismantling its pillars will ultimately strengthen it, I suppose.

Well, as long as it keeps the bloody foreigners out...

As the virgin Mary said, come again?