Monetary compensation for abuse victims

howie2008

Hi Guys,
Listening to the abuse scandals on the news and its truly horrendous. What I can't really understand (and I could be wrong!!!!) is why the hell the tax payer has to compensate them with money for the terror they endured. Will money help them forget, will money make everything ok, will money help them turn there life around and overcome the trauma of their past? Is everything cured by money or is it a case of using any scenario as an opportunity to get easy money off people who have nothing to do with their experience. Ya sue the @ss of the church but hitting the taxpayer for compo is typical money hungry greed. What are ye're views? Why is tax payer handouts identified as the primary means of assisting in their rehabilitation. Will a new car and a house extension make things better?

DarkJager

I agree 100%. I was horrified as was everyone else when the details emerged, but why the hell should I be forced to pay the compensation bill? Its the closeness between State and church which is causing this bottleneck. The government need to drag Ireland into the 21st Century, break all ties with the church and demand every single cent they can afford in paying the compensation.

howie2008

I get reminded of the army deafness claims. Greedy [EMAIL="b@stards"]b@stards[/EMAIL] trying to seize an opportunity for easy money. Hello - pop down to the diy shop for a 20p set of ear plugs! I'd have no problem the state coughing up money for free counselling and rehab for abuse victims but it just wreaks of hopping on the bandwagon to line their pockets by pursuing the state for millions. They'll say the monetary compensation is the traditional mechanism acknowledging wrong doing and that money doesn't interest them which I'm sure u will agree is a load of b#####ks! Its a pity that scheming for easy money is at the forefront of so many peoples minds!

ionix5891

crazy aint it?

the way i see it

these people got raped quite literally and now they are getting raped by the government (in form of taxation) to pay .... themselves ... :eek:

i heard somewhere that the catholic church is one of the richest organizations in the world, can they not sell a few of them golden altars or something to pay these people they abused

howie2008

I'm sure auditing Church a/c's would be very interesting. I doubt there is too much investigation of their assets. We need an aethiest auditor to go in there and see whats available for abuse victims. The hypocrasy of the church wud make you sick. The catholic church needs to get rid of celibacy and bring priests into 21st century. Every guy needs a bit of t#ts & @ss I'm sure you agree to keep them sane!

ionix5891

howie2008 wrote: »

I'm sure auditing Church a/c's would be very interesting. I doubt there is too much investigation of their assets. We need an aethiest auditor to go in there and see whats available for abuse victims. The hypocrasy of the church wud make you sick. The catholic church needs to get rid of celibacy and bring priests into 21st century. Every guy needs a bit of t#ts & @ss I'm sure you agree to keep them sane!

they'll never admit to their "needs" or face up to no longer living in the middle ages, aint that what protestantism is about? clergy having the right to get jiggy with it?

Latchy

howie2008 wrote: »

The catholic church needs to get rid of celibacy and bring priests into 21st century. Every guy needs a bit of t#ts & @ss ]I'm sure you agree to keep them sane!

Not the gay section of that church and anyway , that would be admitting priests are just the same as the rest of us - Human

nesf

I don't think we should even consider compensating these victims of abuse when it's routine for other victims of sexual abuse to get no such compensation. I genuinely do not think it's fair or correct to hand out money to these people and refuse it to others just because they happened to be raped or abused by non-clergy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

paddyboy23

i dont think just handing out large sums of money to the victims will work,surley some decent trustworthy group to look after there needs,ive seen what money can do to these poor people,a lot turn to drink and end up living another nightmare,

the_syco

howie2008 wrote: »

I get reminded of the army deafness claims. Greedy b@stards trying to seize an opportunity for easy money.

What the holy f**k are you on about? The use of earplugs were not enforced, people didn't use earplugs, etc, and people lost their hearing whilst serving the country. Hearing aids are not free once you hit 18 (before 18, they are given to you by the state, if you need one), and usually cost a f**k load of money. They need the case to survive, as often they can't hear for sh|t, or they only hear ringing for the rest of their lives.

howie2008 wrote: »

Hello - pop down to the diy shop for a 20p set of ear plugs!

Eh............ what good is getting ear plugs AFTER the damage is done?

paddyboy23 wrote: »

a lot turn to drink and end up living another nightmare,

Sadly, they often come from a generation where you don't ask for help. The drink is often their way to stop the nightmares. That or suicide.

taram

Of course counselling should be provided, but giving them money is little help, and the fact it's out of our coffers is insane! The church should pay back all the money the state has paid, and pay for counselling for victims.

Sleepy

IMHO, the religious orders' contribution to compensation should be the handing over of all school land and buildings to the Irish state, the removal of all religious artifacts and personnel from all schools in order to assist the institution of 100% secular education in this state.

The contribution of the state should be footing the bill for professional counselling for all victims.

johnnyskeleton

I think the reason why the state is paying part of it is because some of the religious institutions were, at that time, acting in the place of the state. Our state was so poor that it couldn't afford to build and maintain these institutions on their own, so they gave money to the religious orders. Kinda like Irish schools now owned by religious orders but effectively run by state money.

I think the amount paid by the state should be less and the amount paid by the church more, but there is valid reason for the state to be partly liable, and it's not just the government covering for the state etc.

nesf wrote: »

I don't think we should even consider compensating these victims of abuse when it's routine for other victims of sexual abuse to get no such compensation. I genuinely do not think it's fair or correct to hand out money to these people and refuse it to others just because they happened to be raped or abused by non-clergy.

So no one gets compensation and no one gets punished? An idea such as, for example, the compensation being paid into a central fund by those most culpable and then paid out proportionately as to the severity of injury might hold some weight, but to say that no one should be compensated (and more importantly no one should be punished) for the abuse suffered just because not everyone will be compensated is a bit rich.

To give an analogy, what you are suggesting is similar to saying that an insurance company shouldn't pay out to someone hit by a car by one of their policy holders just because someone else who is struck by lightning, say, can't sue anybody.

nesf

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So no one gets compensation and no one gets punished?

God no, the State should severely punish these institutions and the money should be used to provide counselling services and other services needed by the victims, and abuse victims in general.

I just don't think monetary compensation is correct in this instance, especially if the State will be forking out half of it.

johnnyskeleton

nesf wrote: »

God no, the State should severely punish these institutions and the money should be used to provide counselling services and other services needed by the victims, and abuse victims in general.

I just don't think monetary compensation is correct in this instance, especially if the State will be forking out half of it.

It's never going to be perfect, but it is compensation, not a free handout. A lot of the victims of abuse can't hold down a steady job, have serious mental problems etc, and they need monetary compensation to keep them alive and in a reasonable level of comfort.

Most victims of abuse will say that the money will not make up for the abuse, at best it will help them live their lives a bit more like a normal person.

nesf

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's never going to be perfect, but it is compensation, not a free handout. A lot of the victims of abuse can't hold down a steady job, have serious mental problems etc, and they need monetary compensation to keep them alive and in a reasonable level of comfort.

Most victims of abuse will say that the money will not make up for the abuse, at best it will help them live their lives a bit more like a normal person.

I can appreciate that, I'm more worried about that it's near impossible for any of these people to prove they were abused so it's possible some utterly unscrupulous people might try and claim they were if there was money attached, all you'd need would be to have attended certain schools during certain times and no one could say otherwise. We can't in all good conscience put any abuse victim through the kind of hard questioning that it would require to separate the wheat from the chaff so would it best to focus on providing free counselling (and services like this that a) these people need and b) are of no use to anyone who wasn't abused and unlikely to attract freeriders) and such to those that need it instead?

johnnyskeleton

nesf wrote: »

I can appreciate that, I'm more worried about that it's near impossible for any of these people to prove they were abused so it's possible some utterly unscrupulous people might try and claim they were if there was money attached, all you'd need would be to have attended certain schools during certain times and no one could say otherwise.

It's not quite like that. They will tell a story, and that will be held up to scrutiny. In any event, I don't think you should throw out the vast majority of honest claims so as not to reward a few bad apples. For example, if someone was in one of these institutions at the relevant time, and due to no other logical reason, they have gone on to live a very troubled life.

nesf wrote: »

We can't in all good conscience put any abuse victim through the kind of hard questioning that it would require to separate the wheat from the chaff so would it best to focus on providing free counselling (and services like this that a) these people need and b) are of no use to anyone who wasn't abused and unlikely to attract freeriders) and such to those that need it instead?

I think we can, and a lot of them want to tell their story anyway. I'm not denying that the actual giving of evidence and cross examination would be a very unpleasant experience, but it is not unreasonable to ask of them.

Counselling is not a magic cure for them, and is unlikely to undo the damage already done to them. If you were abused as a child 50 years ago then counselling now is fine but it doesn't really change the fact that your life has been utterly miserable for the last 50 years. Sure, a new car and enough money to keep you in comfort till you die won't change that either, but it will bring you closer to a normal life than a bit of counselling.

nesf

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Counselling is not a magic cure for them, and is unlikely to undo the damage already done to them. If you were abused as a child 50 years ago then counselling now is fine but it doesn't really change the fact that your life has been utterly miserable for the last 50 years. Sure, a new car and enough money to keep you in comfort till you die won't change that either, but it will bring you closer to a normal life than a bit of counselling.

I'd be sceptical of how much money can help with psychological scarring that many of these people undoubtedly suffered but I do take your point.

rasper

First of all would any of one of us sell one of our children into a pedophile ring for say ten years for a princely sum of say 20k , I doubt it. The money here is a pittance in comparison to what people have been through. A lot of people have had turbulent childhoods and still have effects in their adult lives , but surely nothing can compare with these sick institutions.
The state is fully liable for this compensation because it sent these children into these lock downs, it knew what was going on but turned its eyes away, I heard Mary o Rourke from her time as Minister for education in the 1980s saying she was not aware what was going on BULLS**T, politicians knew but didn't act , courts knew but took children and babies away from families into rapist hellholes, instances were reported to Gardai, Department of Education and social workers and not followed through.
That is why the taxpayer is liable, and the taxpayer then should chase the elected politicians, civil servants , the church (both abusers and one who knew about the abuse but covered it up).
The money the victims receive is nothing to compensate for a total destroyed life, one wonders how many of these men and woman may have developed into abusers themselves because of the wrongs committed on them , how many are dead through suicide or drink/drugs, the whole childhood lasts a lifetime mantra plays very through if you've been beated and raped or watched beatings and rapes for your entire childhood.
The money is nothing the real questions lie in why the government signed up to those deals with the orders , probably because it is a lot more culpable than it is making out and they may be a lot more that won't come out as the state officials needed to be protected too.

soulsearcher

http://http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0605/1224248099276.html

Patsy Mcgarry in the Irish Times quotes an article from The Irish Law Times


Article says indemnity was unconstitutional - The Irish Times - Fri, Jun 05, 2009
Does this mean that the religious institutions will now have to pay the full cost of compensating the victims. I hope it does, because asking the taxpayers to foot the bill means many of the victims will be contributing to their own compensation.

Dr Galen

i thini it might take more than a newspaprer article to force that to happen. Someone would have to take a case I'd imagine, then depending on the outcome of that (and any further appeals etc) then, the orders involved could be liable for the full costs involved

lawstudent99

Hi OP

Money, whilst noteworthy in terms of providing victims with recourse to services into coming to terms with their past is never going to solve nor adequetly address the issue of power and abuse in Ireland. I would argue that money is the least that the victims of abuse deserve. Its about time Ireland found itself in the 21st Century, not simply in terms of allowing priests to break with celibacy; but by breaking down the small town allegiances in politics, power and professionals. The amount of back-scratching and nepotism present in our society is eye-watering. I remember (this isn't too long ago mind) people treating teachers like gods where I grew up, when quite frankly some of them were emotionally abusive in their little interest to those in their care. They would do well to have their eyes opened in more progressive juristrictions. Unearned power and lack of accountability is a recipe for disaster. Ireland might not have a traditional class system as exists in the UK; it more than compensates for this 'lack' with a worship of anyone who appears to be 'important and influential'. This (used) to be the clergy and other 'pals'.
Currently We are having a crisis not simply on an economic level. We live in a culture of silence-our high suicide rate would attest to that. I'd like to see our leaders and power structure step up to the mark-but I wouldn't hold my breath. I would never say that change would do any justice to victims, but if something positive could come out of their horrific and traumatic experiences than at least we can put an end to the silence.

Fighting Irish

DarkJager wrote: »

I agree 100%. I was horrified as was everyone else when the details emerged, but why the hell should I be forced to pay the compensation bill? Its the closeness between State and church which is causing this bottleneck. The government need to drag Ireland into the 21st Century, break all ties with the church and demand every single cent they can afford in paying the compensation.

werd

johnnyskeleton

soulsearcher wrote: »

http://http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0605/1224248099276.html

Patsy Mcgarry in the Irish Times quotes an article from The Irish Law Times


Article says indemnity was unconstitutional - The Irish Times - Fri, Jun 05, 2009
Does this mean that the religious institutions will now have to pay the full cost of compensating the victims. I hope it does, because asking the taxpayers to foot the bill means many of the victims will be contributing to their own compensation.

I'm not sure that the author has considered the indemnity to be an acknowledgement of the State's culpability in the abuse. My understanding of the reason behind the indemnity was because the State would have been jointly responsible for putting the children into the institutions and because there were no state run equivalent institutions available. On that basis, they would be simply two private co-defendants entitled to agree amongst themselves as to the level of indemnity/contribution between them. If it were the case that the State simply agreed to indemnify the Church for no reason at all, or to provide financial assistance to the Church, he might have a point about the unconstitutionality.