Anybody else doing Eireman?

JonHotchkiss

OK wasnt planning on writing any more on this thread, but i really do feel the need to point a few things out to some people. Its not a moan at people who want express their opinions, just a suggestion that when doing so, we ALL stop and think about exactly what we're saying before we say it...

Numerous people have moaned about various points of the event. some are valid and i'm sure knowing Eoin, they WILL be noted, taken into consideration and used to improve the event next year. but seriously who of us out there have NEVER gone on a training ride and bonked because we screwed up our nutrition. Or NEVER punctured twice out on a ride with only 1 spare or gas cylinder. How many times do we (hear of peoples) races going wrong because they/we got nutrition or pacing wrong? i'm sure some on this thread are even stupid enough to ride their bikes without helmets on at times.... etc etc

So my point is that WE all make mistakes and do stupid things sometimes when we could have and should have done better. But we allow ourselves to learn from these mistakes and do better next time. Lets allow Eoin this privilege too. i've said it before, cut Eoin some slack.

i think some of the criticism is coming across as a little self-righteous and without consideration to the other side of the coin. Eoin wasnt hidding... he was trying his best with ALL the problems and killing himself to try and hold things together.

Complaining that the course was too dark, late at night, IMO isnt fair. these races are themselves something of an adventure. if you expect to be out there that late, prepare for it... just like you've prepared for the race by training. i saw some in transition early that morning with head torches on because they knew it would be dark that early....

Suggesting that bike pumps should be out on the course for anyone to use, is unheard of in races (yes you might get mechanical assistance at some, but its advertised beforehand. therefore if its not, the athlete needs to prepare and check their equipment as such).

doing the swim in a pool.... 80 odd people swimming 3.8k in what i can only guess is a 5 lane 25m pool.... impossible.

lets try to be realistic about it all, balanced and constructive.

gickna1

just wanted to say fair play to you john of all people i though you would be one of the most pissed off as you were so far ahead in the race/ plus travelling further than most of us, but i have to say your a true gentleman having more experience of triathlons worldwide than most of us. best of luck to you in your future races especially the vitruvian hope you kick ass, will look out for your results in the future.

interested

JonHotchkiss wrote: »

doing the swim in a pool.... 80 odd people swimming 3.8k in what i can only guess is a 5 lane 25m pool.... impossible.

lets try to be realistic about it all, balanced and constructive.

Some fair points there - I hadnt read someone suggesting bike pumps for general use - brilliant ... LMAO.

Just a point on the swim for long distance. The provisional results indicate that there were 53 starters for the long event and not 80 odd. The pool in courttown is a standard 5 lane pool. Having 10 and a bit in each lane according to a time estimate is a realistic and possible alternative but extremely difficult to implement given short notice or without forward planning. Take yourself along to a swimming clubs session and see how its done.

I cant begin to imagine the pressure Eoin's under. Id imagine what he's learned from the work he did at the Wexford Marathon and Eireman X that an appropriate response to some of the questions and comments (constructive or otherwise) will be forthcoming. I think having the option of racing long in Ireland is something brilliant and I hope its available for people in the future.

Towel

gickna1 wrote: »

just wanted to say fair play to you john of all people i though you would be one of the most pissed off as you were so far ahead in the race/ plus travelling further than most of us, but i have to say your a true gentleman having more experience of triathlons worldwide than most of us. best of luck to you in your future races especially the vitruvian hope you kick ass, will look out for your results in the future.

Totally agree. There are triathletes who earn their bread and butter by turning up to these races and JH could have been DQ'd and end up working at a loss. At least he is having some sort of reality check on the race that these things happen and happen all over the world. You either support a first event and it grows and evolves, or you slag it off, the world hears about it for the wrong reasons, and the race dies. Its your choice. I'm not a full time athlete so doing rely on the winnings to pay my bills, its just nice to pick up a check at the end of a race though.

If you have issues, email Eoin directly and he can build up a list of recommendations for next time. I have highlighted a few but seeing as i finished a long time before everyone else, there may have been many more issues. Just do things with some compassion and respect for the organiser who did work his ass off for this race.

I'd support it again, having done the full distance it was a tough but enjoyable day. Dont try and ever compare it to I-Dot races who have thousands of staff to help out...but help it to grow and become a great European alternative.

When forums get wind of the slagging off, it gets onto podcasts and magazines. Its your choice.

SucCes09

911sc wrote: »

Thanks...and a half marathon new world record was set at 58:08:)

I think you'll find the guy that came in 13th actually set it - suprising how it was 7 minutes slower then his first run, but was probably pacing himself:rolleyes::D:rolleyes:

Finished near the midway point myself, so happy enough with my first encounter with a race of this distance!

peter kern

I have stumbled by coincidence on this threat

Having have the fortune to either race or coach at various countries
I would say I am sorry that people are so negative about a race which most likely already next year will be a top class half Ironman .

Stand up if you have been on a better and safer bike course than the one in courtown, with a selective profile that discourages drafting (if you don’t want to draft that is ) !!!!!! and road surface which was amazing.

Tell me if you have done an Half Ironman in western Europe where you paid 80 euro and had high quality aid stations and closed roads . In fact I would say this was the first race in Ireland with proper aid stations and the first half Ironman in Ireland on closed roads.

What people seem to do on this forum is to compare an 70.3 race where they pay up to 250 euro with a race where they paid 80 euro . All of those people who complain about the luck off food after the race, reconsider what I great meal you could have bought with the up to 170 euro you saved…..
To me what counts is the quality of the aid stations and apart from energy bars they were brilliantly stocked !!!!!!!!!! I also have to say that all the people at the aid stations where super friendly and super acommondating (thanks guys)

There is no need to talk about the run course as everything has been covered on the forum, all I want to say those are all fairly minor problems to ‘iron out ‘.
Of course they are very annoying but it’s a first year event , and even at inaugural Ironman races with huge budgets and experience not everything goes smooth.

Of course I think the Beast of the East set an example of top class marshelling, and I can only encourage Eoin to try to get some of those marshalles down to courtown next year, but again the marshals surely will understand the race better next year, and marking the course better is a job of a couple of hours .

Lets remind ourself especially if you are from dublin or the vicinity of courtown,
That we are fortunate that somebody had the balls to organize an event like this.
A race on a closed road is in my opinion priceless.

Lets also remind ourselves that 80% of race reports from Irish Ironman complain about the heat on race day ……..unlikely to happen in courtown, and I think for a first time Ironman that should be a major factor in selecting his first race;-)!!!!

I am sure Eoin will built up on the fact that he found an amazing bike course
and a run course with great potential.

Constructive criticism is fine and needed , but I think many of you who have written on this forum should think again if what they wrote was appropriate (unless you have never made mistakes ;-)

I am looking forward to this race next Year



Yours in sport
Peter Kern

peter kern

I have stumbled by coincidence on this threat

Having have the fortune to either race or coach at various countries
I would say I am sorry that people are so negative about a race which most likely already next year will be a top class half Ironman .

Stand up if you have been on a better and safer bike course than the one in courtown, with a selective profile that discourages drafting (if you don’t want to draft that is ) !!!!!! and road surface which was amazing.

Tell me if you have done an Half Ironman in western Europe where you paid 80 euro and had high quality aid stations and closed roads . In fact I would say this was the first race in Ireland with proper aid stations and the first half Ironman in Ireland on closed roads.

What people seem to do on this forum is to compare an 70.3 race where they pay up to 250 euro with a race where they paid 80 euro . All of those people who complain about the luck off food after the race, reconsider what I great meal you could have bought with the up to 170 euro you saved…..
To me what counts is the quality of the aid stations and apart from energy bars they were brilliantly stocked !!!!!!!!!! I also have to say that all the people at the aid stations where super friendly and super acommondating (thanks guys)

There is no need to talk about the run course as everything has been covered on the forum, all I want to say those are all fairly minor problems to ‘iron out ‘.
Of course they are very annoying but it’s a first year event , and even at inaugural Ironman races with huge budgets and experience not everything goes smooth.

Of course I think the Beast of the East set an example of top class marshelling, and I can only encourage Eoin to try to get some of those marshalles down to courtown next year, but again the marshals surely will understand the race better next year, and marking the course better is a job of a couple of hours .

Lets remind ourself especially if you are from dublin or the vicinity of courtown,
That we are fortunate that somebody had the balls to organize an event like this.
A race on a closed road is in my opinion priceless.

Lets also remind ourselves that 80% of race reports from Irish Ironman complain about the heat on race day ……..unlikely to happen in courtown, and I think for a first time Ironman that should be a major factor in selecting his first race;-)!!!!

I am sure Eoin will built up on the fact that he found an amazing bike course
and a run course with great potential.

Constructive criticism is fine and needed , but I think many of you who have written on this forum should think again if what they wrote was appropriate (unless you have never made mistakes ;-)

I am looking forward to this race next Year !! but should I be misdirected again next year .........;-)



Yours in sport
Peter Kern

tunney

Towel wrote: »

Totally agree. There are triathletes who earn their bread and butter by turning up to these races and JH could have been DQ'd and end up working at a loss. At least he is having some sort of reality check on the race that these things happen and happen all over the world. You either support a first event and it grows and evolves, or you slag it off, the world hears about it for the wrong reasons, and the race dies. Its your choice. I'm not a full time athlete so doing rely on the winnings to pay my bills, its just nice to pick up a check at the end of a race though.

If you have issues, email Eoin directly and he can build up a list of recommendations for next time. I have highlighted a few but seeing as i finished a long time before everyone else, there may have been many more issues. Just do things with some compassion and respect for the organiser who did work his ass off for this race.

I'd support it again, having done the full distance it was a tough but enjoyable day. Dont try and ever compare it to I-Dot races who have thousands of staff to help out...but help it to grow and become a great European alternative.

When forums get wind of the slagging off, it gets onto podcasts and magazines. Its your choice.

I've enjoyed reading your posts on TT and you make some interesting points. However one question, are you willing to come into my work and help me make a better job of things in there so I can get promoted and make more money too?

Towel

tunney wrote: »

I've enjoyed reading your posts on TT and you make some interesting points. However one question, are you willing to come into my work and help me make a better job of things in there so I can get promoted and make more money too?

If i had paid for your service and therefore in a position to evaluate your work I would certainly feel obliged to offer some feedback if i was experienced in the field.

Not sure exactly what your point is?

As a human being, my personal responsibility is to help others where I feel I have the skills to do so.

--amadeus--

OK this has now gone beyond the point of race feedback and discussion.

[edit] Change of plan, I've talked this over with the other Mods, especially HM (resident Tri expert) and we're going to shut this down for now. Fair comment is always allowed but I am getting concerned that we are establishing a mob mentality. If / when Eoin resurfaces (after what I am sure has been a pretty tough few days) he can drop the Mods a PM and we will reopen this for him to give the other side of events and for you guys to quiz him for teh answers you want.

Well done to all who competed and good luck to Eoin for next year

eoin ryan

Hi All,

This letter was sent to all Eireman participants in advance of posting on boards....

As the Race Organiser, I am taking full responsibility for the shortcomings of the day. I cannot account for the severity of the weather but I will hold my hands up and sincerely apologise for the outcome of the race as a result of the enforced changes that happened on the day.

To start, the weather was dreadful for a Triathlon race. The Long & Middle distance participants knew from the Saturday briefing that the swim was being changed to plan B – a shorter loop involving more laps, keeping people inside the span of the harbour (This is where the Olympic & Sprint swim were to take place). The possibility of a ‘no swim’ was flagged at the briefings, but was not final. To be honest, we remained optimistic. That morning, later than promised, due to cloudy darkness over the sea, the tough but safe decision was made by the various represented bodies to call off the swim. This was a big call, bearing in mind the implications this would have on the race and on the competitors who had trained long and hard. Indeed, we were very unlucky with the weather - as our day was sandwiched between two better days.

As a result of the weather, plan C was put in place. Plan C was not what anyone had wanted, least of all the Eireman team. We all shared the disappointment. Plan C was a run-bike-run. The goal of plan C was to use the short run to split the field in the same way as would have happened after the swim. At this point I still had Long & Middle distance coupled together, as per swim, for this new run. The rationale behind the 8km run was to try and get a medium between both events to go some way towards matching swim times. This plan would have kept in line with TI drafting rules by splitting participants in the field. A good suggestion was made which was a workable alternative for the Long distance people (only because the numbers were low). It was taken onboard and implemented. It was decided to drop the run for Full distance. That left the Half distance people running 8km. At this stage it seemed unnecessary to run Half distance people the 8km, hence another change down to 4km. A PA system would have come in very handy here to notify people and help spread the word and go some way to avoid confusion. Also for nutritional plans etc but more detail about this later.

Many adjustments had to be made to accommodate the four different races. The logistics of the races were now completely altered. Timing mats, that were meant for the roads, had to be used for the large Half distance start. Due to road closures and delays, we were unable to get the timing mats out on the roads. The Long distance race was then delayed due to an issue on the road, which had to be tidied up before they started. This resulted in a longer wait for the Middle distance race. The Middle distance run and cycle cross-over was a mistake and should not have happened. Following on from this we had the Olympic and Sprint starts. As a result of the above, my own timetable of double checks for that morning took the biggest hit.

In the run up to the race, I made references in literature emailed out that it is the competitors responsibility to know the course as per TI Manual of Guidance. Maps showing the course are available on the website. I am not trying to deflect blame from mistakes that were made. I now realise that more signs and maps were necessary. For the cycle, the roads are marked with Motorway signs and I used them in the briefing document to explain the turn offs. Some Sprint distance competitors did not take Exit 22 off the motorway. There was a race sign in position with an arrow to show the direction for Sprint distance as well as three Motorway signs. This is also one of the fastest downhill parts on the bike course, so if a marshal had been in position picking out yellow numbers and distracting them going at speed, this could have been dangerous. Cycling over cats eyes and layered white paint could have caused an accident, especially if flagged at speed to turnoff and cross from main road to side road over the meridian.

For the run, I knew the woodlands entrance was going to be confusing so I included a diagram for each race distance in the briefing doc’s emailed. It being a new course, I now realise more maps and signs were necessary here as well. Even for an experienced triathlon marshal it would have been a dizzying job to send 3 races back 3 different ways to Courtown, at the woodlands entrance. Runners in the long and middle needed to go left to make up the distance. This run course had been adjusted several weeks ago, maps were changed and participants notified in briefing document. As a result, the run would have been 2 Km short for Long distance so we included the turnaround cone . Directing all participants, in the same direction as they exited the woods, towards this cone was meant to avoid confusion… it didn’t work.

In terms of Marshals (150 marshals helped in the course of the day) – I take full responsibility for anyone who put on a high-vis jacket to volunteer for Eireman. The majority of Marshals were non-triathlon people, and from the very beginning they had been informed that it was up to the competitors to know the route. Again, I now know this was not sufficient. Each Marshal was given a briefing document explaining their individual positions. In reference to the run in particular – part of my timetable was to double check that the run marshals were comfortable with the job and direction of things. With all the changes, delays and further auxillary issues that flared up back in Courtown, I was unable to make this double check journey to the marshals. I did make it later for the Ironman competitors but I dearly wish I could have made those checks earlier, as I had planned.

Many have commented that it was ambitious to have 4 races on one day. Some will know that it was not the original intention. Far from it. The original plan in Sept last year was for an “Ironman’ distance race. Despite advertising it internationally, there was a very low uptake, so it became a Half distance race as well. I spent a lot of time presenting to companies for sponsorship to make this race happen. There was limited sponsorship money forthcoming due to the recession (many thanks to those companies who did sponsor), so it was either cancel the whole thing or introduce the Olympic and Sprint. People were showing interest in doing this race and it had the potential to be magnificent, so I included it in the days events.

To address some of the other big issues:
During a years planning of this event we did take Irish weather into consideration but we never expected high gusts and the driving rain that accompanied it, during August. There was to be a roaming mike, which was to connect back to the DJ/ mc at the finish area. This could have been used as a PA system (my megaphone was damaged on Sat and was unable to source another) but electrical DJ equipment in a small outdoors tent would have been destroyed with the wind and rain – so it was cancelled. Hence, no musical atmosphere at the finish. It was noticeably absent. It was a terrible anticlimax for all finishers especially the Long people. Food and drink was brought up to the finish line, but I only learned from comments afterwards that it was not topped up. This was not good enough. Foil blankets were available and I had asked that they be given out.

Bikes were originally to be taken out at 1.30pm as briefed so as not to disturb the Long distance race. However we did create a gap in transition to allow people take them out earlier due to the weather conditions.

It has been mentioned that there was no sign of me during the day. Outside of quick meal breaks I took a half hour break to sleep. I left Courtown twice. Once to make sure the Ironman marshalling was working and the second time to shadow in the last competitor home the remaining 5km. I dropped him back to his B&B. I was there and I took points from competitors however strongly put during the course of the day.

In relation to the changing Marquee with open sides. It was the only option on the day, as the sides kept blowing in which could have caused injury.

Should we have sent all the Middle distance the wrong way? Cyclists were coming behind them and that wasn’t safe. It could also have risked Long distance people going the wrong way.

With reference to ‘flat’ run course – the run course was unavoidably changed from the original. It did bring in a lot more slopes.

Plan A had allowed for me to get around and do all the double checks and be at the finish line to enjoy the day. It was a hefty work load, leading up and after the day. Passion about the sport and to put on a great race, despite all the obstacles thrown up throughout the year, is what drove me to continue with Eireman.

Right now I feel the frustration of every single competitor over things inside and outside my control. The buck stops with me and in all humility I apologise for errors. Had we had some luck on the day with weather, I have no doubt we would be in a different frame of mind about the race. The results still need to be looked at. This is going to take time – please bear with me, as I have very little hard facts to work with.

I would like to thank The Courtown Commitee for all their help and guidance and all others associated with the Event. I am also thankful for all the comments and suggestions received. If you want to contact me with more, please do so by emailing info@eireman.org . I will take them all on board.

A lot was achieved, most notably the road closures, esp the motorway, lending to a great cycle course.

We are currently reviewing all aspects of the race to see how to proceed for 2010.

Yours in Sport,

Eoin Ryan
Race Organiser

P.S I would like to thank everyone for their messages and suggestions.

--amadeus--

Thanks Eoin for an excellent response.

Good luck again for your next event

--amadeus--

Iron Tractor Boy (OP) asked me to post this:

Swim, there is nothing they could have changed about the weather on race day. Only possible alternative would be 152 lengths in the pool next to transition but you would not have been able to safely get all doing the full in there at one time, let alone the other distances which had a lot more people. I would personally not want to do that many lengths in the pool, as I would not be able to accurately count them.

For the cycle and run (and swim) it is up to you to know the course route. On the cycle I did see signs for the other distances along the motorway section. It would have been nice to have some markings on the road as some have suggested.

There was plenty of stuff at all the aid stations and enough helpers when I was there. The secondary aid station was on a downhill which was a bit iffy when it was wet trying to slow down but that requires a bit more bike control on my part but if it was in another place it would be too big a gap one way and two short the other.

On the run better marshalling at the exit/entrance to the woods would have helped but the details of this where sent out and where clear to understand, go to the cone and back on way out and way back in, not rocket science.
The rest of the run was well marshalled and was an out and back course so you should have remembered landmarks where you turned if you were unsure of the marshalling. I was joined by Eoin in the last few miles along with first aid vehicles as I was the lat person at this point. The only issue apart from the hills with the run was the woods section was already really dark by the time I got there about 9pm which required us to use a torch. This would have been a problem if there where more people there between 9pm and the race finish time of 11:30pm.

I may be in the minority but overall I enjoyed this race and I think the organisers did well in the circumstances with a new event with 4 different distances.