Why is Sein Fein such a dirty word down south?

Liam Byrne

Tim Robbins wrote: »

There's also a class element to it. They are associated with nackers and people who just want to bleed the state.

That's probably a bit harsh, but there's some truth in there - plus a whole load of double-meaning!

Nodin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

There's also a class element to it. They are associated with nackers and people who just want to bleed the state.

The main "class element" I associate with SF is that kind of classist muck being thrown at them....

Dirty-Old-Man wrote:

Not really an anomoly, the clue is in the title "Sinn Fein" - what would the leaders of 1916 say to the European Union and all these foreigners coming to Ireland?

What would Markievicz say to all these Poles coming in taking Irish women? What would DeValera say to the girls going off to Ibiza and coming back with half-spanish kids?

I've no idea, as its not really that relevant. However as Markievicz was born Constance Gore-Booth and married the Ukranian ethnic Pole Count Markievicz, I'd imagine she at least would be a liberal on the 'Polish issue'.

Tim Robbins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's probably a bit harsh, but there's some truth in there - plus a whole load of double-meaning!

Very witty.

Tim Robbins

Nodin wrote: »

The main "class element" I associate with SF is that kind of classist muck being thrown at them....

It's like the way PDs were associated with D4 heads.

SF are associated with nackers. I think it you look at the demographics of where they poll well it would be lower socio economic background areas.

They do a lot of work on the ground in these areas. But the consequence of it is they get labelled as the nacker party by a lot of people. Educated people don't tend to buy into the romantic idealism of nationalism that much, they are more interested in making money or keeping up the jones or in my own case reading a few bertrand russell books.

markopantelic

sinn fein could be EXCELLENT, just need to become a bit more realistic.

Nodin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's like the way PDs were associated with D4 heads.

SF are associated with nackers. I think it you look at the demographics of where they poll well it would be lower socio economic background areas.

They do a lot of work on the ground in these areas. But the consequence of it is they get labelled as the nacker party by a lot of people. Educated people don't tend to buy into the romantic idealism of nationalism that much, they are more interested in making money or keeping up the jones or in my own case reading a few bertrand russell books.

So you think that Sinn Feins "work on the ground" consists of long recitations of nationalist poems and slogans.....maybe even a sing song...?

Tim Robbins

Nodin wrote: »

So you think that Sinn Feins "work on the ground" consists of long recitations of nationalist poems and slogans.....maybe even a sing song...?

No, they a lot of things done along the lines of getting people people gafs etc. and a host of local issues sorted but it's all in council estates areas. Not foxrock.

Liam Byrne

Tim Robbins wrote: »

SF are associated with nackers. I think it you look at the demographics of where they poll well it would be lower socio economic background areas.

Just because someone is from a "lower socio economic background" doesn't make them a knacker.

In my book, people choose to be knackers (shouting in public, making a show of themselves, drinking on the street, fighting in public, being rude and anti-social, drink and take drugs all day layabouts that take everything they can from society and contribute nothing).

The supposed "experts" will link the two, saying that the people from lower backgrounds have nothing else to do, and nothing to aim for.

And there's probably SOME validity in that link - zero prospects can be disheartening and soul-destroying.

But the very fact that many people from "lower socio economic backgrounds" have excellent community ethos - many far better than the up-themselves, walled fortresses with 3 mercs brigade - and are dead sound and not drunks, disproves it as a primary cause.

As does the fact that many "middle-class" people think it's perfectly OK to drink-til-they-puke-on-the-street at weekends; that's knackerish behaviour in my book.

There are overlaps between knackers and "lower socio-economic backgrounds", but they're not one-and-the-same thing.

Nodin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

No, they a lot of things done along the lines of getting people people gafs etc. and a host of local issues sorted but it's all in council estates areas. Not foxrock.

Yet you imply they do otherwise here,

Educated people don't tend to buy into the romantic idealism of nationalism that much,

hence the question.....

Tim Robbins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Just because someone is from a "lower socio economic background" doesn't make them a knacker.

In my book, people choose to be knackers (shouting in public, making a show of themselves, drinking on the street, fighting in public, being rude and anti-social, drink and take drugs all day layabouts that take everything they can from society and contribute nothing).

I agree. But unfortunately most knackers come from lower socio economic areas.

There are overlaps between knackers and "lower socio-economic backgrounds", but they're not one-and-the-same thing.

Someone with a low empathy rating from high socio economic background, is generally a selfish obnoxious prat.

Someone with a low empathy rating from a lower socio economic background ends up being a knacker, unfortunately.

You generally don't get selfish obnoxious prats from lower socio economic backgrounds.

Tim Robbins

Nodin wrote: »

Yet you imply they do otherwise here,

You misread me.

Can'tseeme

The DUP used to use the same mud throwing rhetoric towards Sinn Fein as the southern parties still use, a few years back. But of course that language had to change due to power sharing. I guess if Sinn Fein's vote increases in the south, the other parties will feel they'll need to work with them. We will then most likely see a change in the usual guff being used when talking about Sinn Fein.

Liam Byrne

Can'tseeme wrote: »

The DUP used to use the same mud throwing rhetoric towards Sinn Fein as the southern parties still use, a few years back. But of course that language had to change due to power sharing. I guess if Sinn Fein's vote increases in the south, the other parties will feel they'll need to work with them. We will then most likely see a change in the usual guff being used when talking about Sinn Fein.

"The same mud throwing rhetoric ?" The same as what, exactly ?

Y'see therein lies some of the problem.....phrases like "mud throwing rhetoric" and "usual guff".

Why are genuine concerns and issues with SF never seen as such ?

If someone neutral has a genuine issue with them, using criteria that they would equally apply to FF or the DUP or whoever - why is it immediately and automatically dismissed using such phrases ?

Stabshauptmann

OP, your question is why is SF a dirty word down south. The answer is quite simple.

The main source of anti-SF sentiment stems from an inability to empathise with the people of Northern Ireland or understand the Troubles.

It is the opinion of many people that the Troubles occurred because the people of NI are not evolved enough as a species to solve their problems any other way. There is also an equally strong view that there were no real problems anyway, that the Troubles started because of a desire by an ignorant minority for a united Ireland.

Because of this, people dont understand why violence was necessary in NI - you'll find that 9/10 of these people have supported some sort of violence / warfare where they thought it legitimate or justifiable.

In fact it didnt take long for someone to prove my point:

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We down south have a closer approximation to a normal society... and are slow to forgive Sinn Fein for their links to PIRA.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"The same mud throwing rhetoric ?" The same as what, exactly ?

Y'see therein lies some of the problem.....phrases like "mud throwing rhetoric" and "usual guff".

Why are genuine concerns and issues with SF never seen as such ?

'all a bunch of celtic jersey wearing nackers'....Thats a 'genuine concern' or a stereotype? Likewise accusations of racism, nazism, xenophobia and the like....

P. Breathnach

Dirty-Old-Man wrote: »

... What would Markievicz say to all these Poles coming in taking Irish women? What would DeValera say to the girls going off to Ibiza and coming back with half-spanish kids?

I think SF people have no sense of irony.

Mind you, now that I think of it, that's one thing they probably have in common with most other politicians. The use of humour or satire to make a point seems to be a lost art. Fine Gael did try it a few years ago with Twink, and proved that they had lost the art even more than anybody else has. Joe Higgins, whether you agree with his politics or not, has the art.

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

'all a bunch of celtic jersey wearing nackers'

I didn't see that phrase anywhere in this thread.

But yes, the "public" face of SF support that registers with people does seem to be a bunch of drunken idiots ruining decent songs by chanting "ooh, aaah, up the 'ra" or some such rubbish, and ruining everyone else's night.

Add to that the fact that every death due to IRA bombings is excused by saying "that was a mistake", and you definitely give off the impression that the organisation is incompetent and incapable of doing things that they mean to, which adds to the uneducated impression that they're giving.

But yes, there are probably perfectly respectable-looking people who support SF, as well as those who are good at brainwashing impressionable young people into the more extremist views, and they're probably a bigger threat to democracy than the drunken idiots.

Nodin wrote: »

Likewise accusations of racism, nazism, xenophobia and the like....

Whatever about nazism, the sectarianism/racism/xenophobia would seem to apply, at least to some extent.

Otherwise the death of a Protestant would be treated with equal shock and disgust as that of a Catholic, surely ?

Tim Robbins

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

The main source of anti-SF sentiment stems from an inability to empathise with the people of Northern Ireland or understand the Troubles.

True. People down south couldn't give a cr*p.
And any rational, intelligent person would veer towards either the Alliance party or the SDLP.

Nationalism is just as pernicious and irrational as religion. They are both man made inventions which just put people in groups which come into conflict with rival groups as resources are finite.

r3nu4l

Jason Mc wrote: »

...I see them as a party with integrity and they have been at the forefront of change in the north for years.

When I was younger, Sinn Féin did 'great work' in my area, organising pickets on the houses of drug dealers and forcing them out of the area. Great stuff, makes the working class feel like someone's doing something for them.

Purely by coincidence I'm sure, those who didn't leave voluntarily were 'paid a visit' by some men who allowed them 24 hours to leave. They subsequently left!

Strange thing was though that there were two particularly nasty drug dealers in our area that were never picketed or targeted by the group led by the Sinn Féin boyos, they were well known dealers and they continued their trade openly. It turned out that the guys who were left alone were paying a percentage of their takings to 'the struggle'.

Integrity? My arse!

Stabshauptmann

Jason Mc wrote: »

Do you all think they would have made as big a bollix of the economy as bertie and his band of merry men have made?

While I think FF squandered the revenue of the boom years through inefficiencies, made bad decisions when it came to taxes and is guilty of a lot of cronyism.

However, had Sinn Fein been in power we'd never have left the era of protectionism, we never would have entered the EU and reaped the massive gains that we did, we never would have recovered from the 80s as Sinn Fein simply dont understand elasticity.

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom to squander

That being said, thats why I wouldnt vote for Labour or any left wing party. Its not the reason "Sinn Fein are a dirty word down South"

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't see that phrase anywhere in this thread.

His statement didn't refer to this thread in isolation. Are you going to tell me you've never seen statements that match that paraphrase of mine in these threads?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever about nazism, the sectarianism/racism/xenophobia would seem to apply, at least to some extent.

Otherwise the death of a Protestant would be treated with equal shock and disgust as that of a Catholic, surely ?

I seem to remember Martin McGuinness standing beside the chief of the PSNI condemning the killing of both PSNI and British army members not too many months ago......

ionix5891

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom to squander

hahahahaha

let me fix that for you

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom and plenty of squander

you forgetting they are the ones who didn't want us in EU...

.

Nodin

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think SF people have no sense of irony.

As he's asking what an Irish woman who married an ethnic pole would think of Poles marrying Irish women in a rhetorical fashion, I'm not sure the lack of a sense of Irony is limited by party affiliation.....

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

His statement didn't refer to this thread in isolation. Are you going to tell me you've never seen statements that match that paraphrase of mine in these threads?

No.

But I will tell you something that I've never seen on this thread - someone aligned with SF saying "that's a valid criticism, and I can see why you asked".

Nodin wrote: »

I seem to remember Martin McGuinness standing beside the chief of the PSNI condemning the killing of both PSNI and British army members not too many months ago......

If only that stance were a consistent and regular occurrence.

Someone's religion or race shouldn't even be mentioned if they're murdered; a life is a life.

Liam Byrne

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom to squander

Why ? Because they'd have telephoned a warning beforehand ?

I'll go now, coz two puns per thread is my limit.....

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No.

But I will tell you something that I've never seen on this thread - someone aligned with SF saying "that's a valid criticism, and I can see why you asked".

Funny, because I seem to remember disagreeing with the partys EU policy a number of times, including on this very thread......

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

True. People down south couldn't give a cr*p.
And any rational, intelligent person would veer towards either the Alliance party or the SDLP.

Nationalism is just as pernicious and irrational as religion. They are both man made inventions which just put people in groups which come into conflict with rival groups as resources are finite.

SF in the north have twice as much vote as the SDLP and much more vote than the SDLP and Alliance combined. So i suppose when you cross the artifical border people suddenly become completely irrational and thick as a plank by your reckoning.

Maybe they reason they do well is because SF actually work harder for their constituents than the opposition and are more respected by the public because of this work. Just a thought!

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

Funny, because I seem to remember disagreeing with the partys EU policy a number of times, including on this very thread......

You know well what I'm talking about.

As stated before, the EU policies of a party are fairly irrelevant if they continue to be OK with key issues of law & order and fairness that the electorate aren't.

The same could well apply to FF at this stage; they could have the best EU policy ever and still get shafted because of their stance on tribunals, corruption, incompetence, etc.

Tim Robbins

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

SF in the north have twice as much vote as the SDLP and much more vote than the SDLP and Alliance combined. So i suppose when you cross the artifical border people suddenly become completely irrational and thick as a plank by your reckoning.

Maybe they reason they do well is because SF actually work harder for their constituents than the opposition and are more respected by the public because of this work. Just a thought!

The majority of people are irrational in their decision making.

Look at the amount of muppets who keep voting for FF no matter how many dodgy planning decision, evidence of corruption etc.
Look at the amount of muppets who keep supporting the Catholic Church when they had systematic abuse of children and covered it all up.

Unfortunately we have to deal with muppetry everywhere.

Liam Byrne

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

So i suppose when you cross the artifical border people suddenly become completely irrational and thick as a plank by your reckoning.

:rolleyes: If they reckon it's an "artificial border", it would certainly seem so!