Why is Sein Fein such a dirty word down south?

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't see that phrase anywhere in this thread.

His statement didn't refer to this thread in isolation. Are you going to tell me you've never seen statements that match that paraphrase of mine in these threads?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever about nazism, the sectarianism/racism/xenophobia would seem to apply, at least to some extent.

Otherwise the death of a Protestant would be treated with equal shock and disgust as that of a Catholic, surely ?

I seem to remember Martin McGuinness standing beside the chief of the PSNI condemning the killing of both PSNI and British army members not too many months ago......

ionix5891

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom to squander

hahahahaha

let me fix that for you

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom and plenty of squander

you forgetting they are the ones who didn't want us in EU...

.

Nodin

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think SF people have no sense of irony.

As he's asking what an Irish woman who married an ethnic pole would think of Poles marrying Irish women in a rhetorical fashion, I'm not sure the lack of a sense of Irony is limited by party affiliation.....

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

His statement didn't refer to this thread in isolation. Are you going to tell me you've never seen statements that match that paraphrase of mine in these threads?

No.

But I will tell you something that I've never seen on this thread - someone aligned with SF saying "that's a valid criticism, and I can see why you asked".

Nodin wrote: »

I seem to remember Martin McGuinness standing beside the chief of the PSNI condemning the killing of both PSNI and British army members not too many months ago......

If only that stance were a consistent and regular occurrence.

Someone's religion or race shouldn't even be mentioned if they're murdered; a life is a life.

Liam Byrne

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom to squander

Why ? Because they'd have telephoned a warning beforehand ?

I'll go now, coz two puns per thread is my limit.....

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No.

But I will tell you something that I've never seen on this thread - someone aligned with SF saying "that's a valid criticism, and I can see why you asked".

Funny, because I seem to remember disagreeing with the partys EU policy a number of times, including on this very thread......

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

True. People down south couldn't give a cr*p.
And any rational, intelligent person would veer towards either the Alliance party or the SDLP.

Nationalism is just as pernicious and irrational as religion. They are both man made inventions which just put people in groups which come into conflict with rival groups as resources are finite.

SF in the north have twice as much vote as the SDLP and much more vote than the SDLP and Alliance combined. So i suppose when you cross the artifical border people suddenly become completely irrational and thick as a plank by your reckoning.

Maybe they reason they do well is because SF actually work harder for their constituents than the opposition and are more respected by the public because of this work. Just a thought!

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

Funny, because I seem to remember disagreeing with the partys EU policy a number of times, including on this very thread......

You know well what I'm talking about.

As stated before, the EU policies of a party are fairly irrelevant if they continue to be OK with key issues of law & order and fairness that the electorate aren't.

The same could well apply to FF at this stage; they could have the best EU policy ever and still get shafted because of their stance on tribunals, corruption, incompetence, etc.

Tim Robbins

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

SF in the north have twice as much vote as the SDLP and much more vote than the SDLP and Alliance combined. So i suppose when you cross the artifical border people suddenly become completely irrational and thick as a plank by your reckoning.

Maybe they reason they do well is because SF actually work harder for their constituents than the opposition and are more respected by the public because of this work. Just a thought!

The majority of people are irrational in their decision making.

Look at the amount of muppets who keep voting for FF no matter how many dodgy planning decision, evidence of corruption etc.
Look at the amount of muppets who keep supporting the Catholic Church when they had systematic abuse of children and covered it all up.

Unfortunately we have to deal with muppetry everywhere.

Liam Byrne

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

So i suppose when you cross the artifical border people suddenly become completely irrational and thick as a plank by your reckoning.

:rolleyes: If they reckon it's an "artificial border", it would certainly seem so!

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You know well what I'm talking about.

Unless you're specific, no. Otherwise my psychic powers would have garnered sufficient wealth for me to employ a stand-in for these threads.

Aidric

Arthuar Morgan's performance on Vincent Browne last night sums them up. He couldn't give any coherent lines on the parties economic policy and spent the night spouting uninformed man on the street rhetoric. When challenged on the parties line on the stamp duty issue from a couple of years back he conceded he couldn't remember.

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The majority of people are irrational in their decision making.

Look at the amount of muppets who keep voting for FF no matter how many dodgy planning decision, evidence of corruption etc.
Look at the amount of muppets who keep supporting the Catholic Church when they had systematic abuse of children and covered it all up.

Unfortunately we have to deal with muppetry everywhere.

Its called democracy. Ok FF and Bertie have pulled the wool over many peoples eyes over the past number of years. They will get their comeuppance tomorrow rest assured.
The CC pulled the wool over peoples eyes for years aswell. It all comes out in the end.

Nordies wouldn't vote for SF if they felt another party could represent them better.

bmaxi

SF have a long road to travel before they can disassociate themselves with violence and thuggery. I personally have been told by a former SF councillor that I would be "sorted" for taking him to task on an issue.
While it could be argued that this is a personality flaw in the person themselves, to me it just demonstrates the type of individual the organisation attracts and tolerates.

jmayo

IIMII wrote: »

No, not a different country, just a different polical experience. He came through the ranks of war politics and hasn't adapted well to the cut and thrust of parliamentary politics. That is understandable - those who were active in nationalist politics in the north were never in a position to engage in effective parliamentary politics, for a variety of reasons.

I think you will find it is a different country, it might be the same island but there are serious differences between NI and ROI, and the rhetoric that SF can use in "the North" is totally out of place in "the South".
There isn't a huge tribal divide here that they can easily tap into.

AFAIK Fitt, Hume and Mallon gave parliamentary politics a go, long before SF decided that they need to get serious about political struggle as well as military struggle.

A few reasons people in ROI will not vote for SF.
Close links with PIRA in the past and consoidered by many to be linked to the diesel laundering, smuggling gangs based in South Armagh.
Armed struggle may be over but Slab Murphy and the boys leave people uneasy.
Paul Quinn's death in Monaghan.
Robert Mccartney's death.
Gerry McCabe death and refusal of Ms Ferris to come out and condemm killers.
Northern bank job question marks.
Fact that SF only recognised the Dáil, allowing TDs to take their seats, in 1986 and upto that point SF had viewed the IRA Army Council as the legitimate government of Ireland.
SF is still led by the same people today as way back then.

Now no other party in the South carries this type of baggage.

Added to that SF economic policy is crap and not acceptable to most voters.
Irritating habit of members talking in some type of rehearsed sinn fein speak.
Sometimes they make some of our poltical party muppets look positively inspired and forthcoming.
SF views on EU.

Latest revelations that SF are just as bad as all the other parties in Westminister, although their expense taking is even more laughable since they haven't taken their seats in parliament :rolleyes:

Mary Lou Mc Donald just irriates the sh** out of me and many others.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin comes across well, but that's about it as regards their major players in ROI.

thethedev

I know a sinn feinn candidate personally, if they put ****/hate filled brainwashed people up for local elections than god knows what their leader is like.
If a sinn feinn candidate calls to my door I really am going to raise this issue with them.
Ógra Sinn Feinn are almost like the nazi youth in some ways.

LordSutch

Jason Mc wrote: »

All these parties arguing about not wanting to go in collation with the Sein Fein.

Why is that?

Obviously they have links with the (P)IRA. Is this the main reason?

Yes, this is the main reason people down south don't vote fot them > far too much baggage + the fact that for thirty years we watched Adams/McGuinness & co refusing to condem IRA Bombings, Knee cappings, & Murders of all types, personally speaking, I witnessed far too many bodies being scraped off the pavements (courtesy of the IRA) to ever actually vote for them.

God help the Shinner who comes to my front door looking for a vote.

Tim Robbins

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its called democracy. Ok FF and Bertie have pulled the wool over many peoples eyes over the past number of years. They will get their comeuppance tomorrow rest assured.
The CC pulled the wool over peoples eyes for years aswell. It all comes out in the end.

You are missing the point. People still support them no matter what. That's irrationality of it.

Imagine an organisation abuses children, gets away with it and people still go and support it on a weekly basis?

Sinn Fein's main put off factor here is their association with knackers.
Which of course is an irrational reason, but people vote irrationally.

Nordies wouldn't vote for SF if they felt another party could represent them better.

Nordies are no more rational than anyone else. In fact, the environment they grow up in if anything would just make them even more irrational.

It's not a normal environment, but by the time they realise that most other western democracies don't paint their curb stones, have marches, take religion seriously, all the cultural hard wiring sub concious programming has been finished. Unless they are extremly intelligent and strong willed - it's curtains for most of them.

Erin Go Brath

Liam Byrne wrote: »

:rolleyes: If they reckon it's an "artificial border", it would certainly seem so!

Not wanting to get drawn into another border debate. I'll just say the decision to create a border with an inbuilt unionist majority was an undemocratic one. With the threat of a "terrible and immediate war" Irish representatives agreed reluctantly to it and the rest is history.

Nodin

thethedev wrote: »

I know a sinn feinn candidate personally, if they put ****/hate filled brainwashed people up for local elections than god knows what their leader is like.
If a sinn feinn candidate calls to my door I really am going to raise this issue with them.
Ógra Sinn Feinn are almost like the nazi youth in some ways.

I know a Fianna Failer whose corrupt. I don't have to name him though thankfully, as that would take the joy out of sly libel by anecdote.

thethedev

Do you want me to name him? I think the site will delete the post anyway if I do

sceptre

If it's something that's going to activate my libel alarm, don't even think about it.

If it's something that isn't going to cause that alarm to ring, then you're free to discuss.

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You are missing the point. People still support them no matter what. That's irrationality of it.

Imagine an organisation abuses children, gets away with it and people still go and support it on a weekly basis?

Sinn Fein's main put off factor here is their association with knackers.
Which of course is an irrational reason, but people vote irrationally.


Nordies are no more rational than anyone else. In fact, the environment they grow up in if anything would just make them even more irrational.

It's not a normal environment, but by the time they realise that most other western democracies don't paint their curb stones, have marches, take religion seriously, all the cultural hard wiring sub concious programming has been finished. Unless they are extremly intelligent and strong willed - it's curtains for most of them.

"Their association with knackers". I presume you are referring to inhabitants of less well off areas. We're not all fortunate enough to have been born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Your disdain for working class people is quite sickening tbh.

The north is indeed not a normal environment. If a section of people have been virtually second class citizens due to religion/nationality etc they are bound to vote for the party that addresses that issue the most. Its hardly irrational to do so. Perhaps some of these people would have voted for FF, FG, Lab but none of those parties have ever shown an interest in representing people in the north so we'll never know.

Liam Byrne

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Not wanting to get drawn into another border debate. I'll just say the decision to create a border with an inbuilt unionist majority was an undemocratic one. With the threat of a "terrible and immediate war" Irish representatives agreed reluctantly to it and the rest is history.

Brilliant! Someone says that they don't want to get drawn into another debate and then ensures that they get the last word in.... :rolleyes:

The fact is that the border IS THERE. It's not "artificial".

You're saying that it was undemocratic because of the threat of violence. And yet you'd suggest that advance in democracy have been made because of the threat of violence by the IRA ?

I think it's been said elsewhere that IF the threat of violence caused the decision to accept that border, THEN a similar threat (and carrying out) of violence caused most of us to accept the GFA; so IF you're of the above view, then you'd have to agree that someone could similarly argue that the GFA, the subsequent release of criminals, and Sinn Fein's involvement in the Northern Assembly - are equally "undemocratic".

But they were decided on and they exist. FACT.

Unless you want us to put all the criminals back into jail and remove Sinn Fein from power in the North.

Anyways, this is dragging us off topic (as usual).....the fact is that despite what you or I might WANT, the border exists and is not artificial.

You want the border not to exist, but it does. Saying otherwise won't change that (while ironically, "let's see what we can do to remove it" might).

I want a night with Deanna Russo - doesn't make it so.

the_syco

Jason Mc wrote: »

Do you all think they would have made as big a bollix of the economy as bertie and his band of merry men have made?

Worse. They wanted to hike out corpo taxes so far up, no foreign company would come here.

Can'tseeme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"The same mud throwing rhetoric ?" The same as what, exactly ?

Y'see therein lies some of the problem.....phrases like "mud throwing rhetoric" and "usual guff".

Why are genuine concerns and issues with SF never seen as such ?

If someone neutral has a genuine issue with them, using criteria that they would equally apply to FF or the DUP or whoever - why is it immediately and automatically dismissed using such phrases ?

We could take this usual debate about Sinn Fein around in circles again. But what would be the point? Your going to look at it from the same pov as the likes of Jim Allister. You'll probably go on about the IRA blowing up shopping centres and I'll be telling you that you've not got a clue, how it was to be living up north as a nationalist or from a catholic background.

My point is regarding the political speak of the parties about Sinn Fein will change like the DUP's has. The more the peace grows, the further stability in the north, the more attitudes towards Sinn Fein will change.

From a northern perspective, after the ceasefire in the mid-90's is when the nationalist Sinn Fein vote really took off. They worked tirelessly towards ending the conflict, they fought hard and are winning in the fight against inequality, sectarianism and racism, they're the only party that exposed the collusion of unionism/loyalism and the security forces and the work they have done in local communities has transformed areas.

Tim Robbins

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

"Their association with knackers". I presume you are referring to inhabitants of less well off areas. We're not all fortunate enough to have been born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Your disdain for working class people is quite sickening tbh.

The north is indeed not a normal environment. If a section of people have been virtually second class citizens due to religion/nationality etc they are bound to vote for the party that addresses that issue the most. Its hardly irrational to do so. Perhaps some of these people would have voted for FF, FG, Lab but none of those parties have ever shown an interest in representing people in the north so we'll never know.

Would you get out of here with your "working class" rhetoric. The origin of that term was in times when people worked long 12 hour days, seven days a week and had no time for leisure. That's why they were referred to as the "working" class. Now the only people who work those hours are IT people who are on a deadline and their job is on the line.

The knackers I refer to don't work, don't want to work or contribute constructively to the common good.

I also don't like arrogant prats from the upper socio-economic bracket. Economically, I'm just a middle of the road bloke who just tries to call a spade a spade.

CiDeRmAn

They are a party that never has to come up with real solutions to economic problems because it knows that it won't be in any position to influence fiscal matters for some time to come.
They are a party who have supported terrorism, as the political wing, an integral part of an illegal army who commited heinous acts in OUR name. They claimed to be, somehow, the true army of the legitimate Irish republic and so killed and intimidated hundreds whilst seeking an intellectual justification for their brutal behaviour.
They highjacked the civil rights movement and replaced that with their own agenda, acting against the proper government of the Irish republic, and the Irish states agreement over partition.
If the Irish government contributed to anything in the rise of the republican paramilitary it was the weak leadership they gave to the thousands of Irish citizens who reside in Ulster.
Now Sinn Fein claim to be "democratic", they who denied the democratic wishes of the people of this island to persue their own military objectives.
They manipulate the politically ignorant and use grandstanding rhetoric to persuade people to vote their way.

Mary Lou McDonald is a tireless self publicist, a person who latched onto Sein Fein as a party that can get her power and favour quickly, and Sinn Fein latched onto her to provide a socially acceptable mask to shroud their true substace.

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

Tim Robbins

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

I agree with this. But I think there's also a class element to it. The RC Church has done more harm to more humans in the Republic than SF have.

But they maintain a lot of their support. They are associated with well meaning grannies and loads of middle of the road people. Everyone has a granny who worshipped the pope.

If they were associated with knackers predominately they wouldn't get this.

Liam Byrne

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Your going to look at it from the same pov as the likes of Jim Allister.

Here we go again. How could I possibly look at it from the same pov as Jim Allister ? He's a unionist.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

You'll probably go on about the IRA blowing up shopping centres

So they didn't blow up shopping centres, then ?

Can'tseeme wrote: »

I'll be telling you that you've not got a clue how it was to be living up north as a nationalist or from a catholic background.

And in this you'd be right.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

My point is regarding the political speak of the parties about Sinn Fein will change like the DUP's has. The more the peace grows, the further stability in the north, the more attitudes towards Sinn Fein will change.

It's not just up to everyone else to change their attitudes; Sinn Fein's own attitudes will have to change too. Not least their usual stance of everyone else being wrong/corrupt/in collusion, while they excuse their own "side".

If they expect to be given the benefit of the doubt, they need to give it too.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

they fought hard and are winning in the fight against inequality, sectarianism and racism

From what I've seen and heard they're only fighting against HALF of it. That's not a bias, it's the vibe they give off from their statements, and it needs to change.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

they're the only party that exposed the collusion of unionism/loyalism and the security forces

And well done on that - credit where credit's due. Now if only they could be as open to weeding out the collusion and double-speak of their own interests.

When quizzed on it, they also seem to rely on pointing fingers in relation to what others are doing, rather than ensuring that they have the high moral ground. While they have no control over others, and can only hope to influence them gradually, they have full control over their own stances. And fixing those stances would make their influence less gradual, as they would increase their credibility and their fitness for office.

meglome

I'd like to start this by saying I've never voted for Sinn Fein nor do I agree with quite a lot of their polices, especially the economic ones.

That said I think there is very much a bias to Sinn Fein in the middle classes in this country. It seems people would rather vote for the devil himself than Sinn Fein. I dunno it's like they are untouchable and sullied so cannot be voted for. It seems to be about a lot more than just policies. The 'war' is over so that shouldn't be the case. Sure they are connected with some dodgy people, a bit like Fianna Fail only Sinn Fein haven't screwed us as much. And to be honest I think if they ever got into government the realities of it would knock many of the rough edges off.

Now while I don't agree with their economic policies I'd have to wonder could they have done a worse job than Fianna Fail.

I'm just sayin...

ionix5891

meglome wrote: »

I'd like to start this by saying I've never voted for Sinn Fein nor do I agree with quite a lot of their polices, especially the economic ones.

That said I think there is very much a bias to Sinn Fein in the middle classes in this country. It seems people would rather vote for the devil himself than Sinn Fein. I dunno it's like they are untouchable and sullied so cannot be voted for. It seems to be about a lot more than just policies. The 'war' is over so that shouldn't be the case. Sure they are connected with some dodgy people, a bit like Fianna Fail only Sinn Fein haven't screwed us as much.

Now while I don't agree with their economic policies I'd have to wonder could they have done a worse job than Fianna Fail.

I'm just sayin...

dodgy people with guns...

meglome

ionix5891 wrote: »

dodgy people with guns...

And still with these guns they haven't raped the entire country.

ionix5891

meglome wrote: »

And still with these guns they haven't raped the entire country.

they are being kept busy up north

meglome

ionix5891 wrote: »

they are being kept busy up north

They seem to get an awful lot of votes in the North for people who are supposedly so bad.

Nodin

ionix5891 wrote: »

dodgy people with guns...

Decommissioned, if you care to recall.

ionix5891 wrote: »

they are being kept busy up north ...

...on the policing board, councils and assemblies, I presume you mean.

ionix5891

meglome wrote: »

They seem to get an awful lot of votes in the North for people who are supposedly so bad.

who else would they vote for, politics up there are still split down sectarian lines

Nodin wrote: »

Decommissioned, if you care to recall.
.

something on the news about police and soldiers being murdered recently?


ok ill shut up now, dont want some balaclava wearing due knocking on my door

prinz

meglome wrote: »

They seem to get an awful lot of votes in the North for people who are supposedly so bad.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0528/1224247598666.html

And you wonder why people wouldn't vote for them? Same bullyboy tactics the Nazi party used to come to power.

Erin Go Brath

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

They are a party that never has to come up with real solutions to economic problems because it knows that it won't be in any position to influence fiscal matters for some time to come.

As opposed to our current Govt and their policies which have us in the great situation we are in right now.

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

They are a party who have supported terrorism, as the political wing, an integral part of an illegal army who commited heinous acts in OUR name. They claimed to be, somehow, the true army of the legitimate Irish republic and so killed and intimidated hundreds whilst seeking an intellectual justification for their brutal behaviour.
They highjacked the civil rights movement and replaced that with their own agenda, acting against the proper government of the Irish republic, and the Irish states agreement over partition.

As opposed to FF, FG, and Labour who all stood idly bye while the Unionist militia colluded with police to murder Catholic civilians. FF, FG, Lab have NO MORAL GROUND for not intervening in these atrocities.

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

If the Irish government contributed to anything in the rise of the republican paramilitary it was the weak leadership they gave to the thousands of Irish citizens who reside in Ulster.
Now Sinn Fein claim to be "democratic", they who denied the democratic wishes of the people of this island to persue their own military objectives.
They manipulate the politically ignorant and use grandstanding rhetoric to persuade people to vote their way.

SF should have just stood aside (like the other nationalist parties) while British/Unionist Governments ran roughshod over the nationalist people?

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Mary Lou McDonald is a tireless self publicist, a person who latched onto Sein Fein as a party that can get her power and favour quickly, and Sinn Fein latched onto her to provide a socially acceptable mask to shroud their true substace.

As opposed to other candidates. A politican wanting power, stop the lights!

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

All in the past. Meanwhile in the present tense, the current Govt is ruining our economy, bailing out banks with taxpayers money, presiding over huge job loses, and plunging thousands of people into debt.

meglome

ionix5891 wrote: »

who else would they vote for, politics up there are still split down sectarian lines

I didn't realise that nationalists in the north only had one party they could vote for.

prinz

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

All in the past.

Tell that to the relatives of the dead, maimed and disappeared. Tell that to the people who were tortured, targeted, robbed, and intimidated.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Meanwhile in the present tense, the current Govt is ruining our economy, bailing out banks with taxpayers money, presiding over huge job loses, and plunging thousands of people into debt.

Meanwhile in the present tense, the current SF has no idea how to run an economy, robs the banks, can provide no jobs whatsoever, and has plunged thousands of people into a cycle of death.

Liam Byrne

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

Reply :

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

All in the past

However, earlier we had this :

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I'll just say the decision to create a border with an inbuilt unionist majority was an undemocratic one.

Seems like the "all in the past" line is VERY selective. :rolleyes:

Either the past is valid to bring up or it's not.

Stop trying to have it both ways.

Exile 1798

I don't know why the debate has wandered on. The issue was nailed in the very first response.

IIMII wrote: »

There is an element of protectionism to it. FF and Lab don't want a mainstream resurgent SF eating into their share of the electoral pie. FG is more complicated, as they still hold a civil way heritage but at the same token they also have Collins' fans that might also be tempted towards supporting a mainstream SF. The policy on the part of all parties is to keep SF on the margins.

You might ask how is it that that any FF minister or member could say they won't share government with SF - the two parties have traveled exactly the same road. If Adams is a terrorist then so was Dev. So it's purely party politics, Fianna Fáil see Sinn Féin as a threat because they see a newer, younger version of themselves.

Jason Mc

Yeah I do doubt that Gerry would have written so many blank cheques for the fat cats at the banks so this whole economic arguement is rather void.

I'm sort of guessing that half of the people that complain about the tactics in the north have grandparents who did pretty much the same thing and are proud that their countrymen fought to free ireland from british rule

Main thing is don't is the troubles didn't really affect them so so they do not care.

But god forbid if Israel attacks palestine. That's more important than dealing with issues on your own doorstep....


I'm very glad that things moved on up here and want to live in peace with our unionists neighbours. There is still quite some way for us to go up here for there to be complete equality but it is moving in the right direction

Can'tseeme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Here we go again. How could I possibly look at it from the same pov as Jim Allister ? He's a unionist.

I was talking about the political speak of Jim Allister towards the IRA. The scaremongering, the guns issue, etc.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So they didn't blow up shopping centres, then ?


It's not just up to everyone else to change their attitudes; Sinn Fein's own attitudes will have to change too. Not least their usual stance of everyone else being wrong/corrupt/in collusion, while they excuse their own "side".

If they expect to be given the benefit of the doubt, they need to give it too.

Sinn Fein have consitently said that the IRA had did wrong but that ALL of it was wrong on ALL sides. The difference regarding collusion is the cover up and denial by the british state/unionism (for arming, passing of information on nationalists, and running loyalist muder gangs) that Sinn Fein (who were the only party unfortunately) have fought to uncover and expose.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

From what I've seen and heard they're only fighting against HALF of it. That's not a bias, it's the vibe they give off from their statements, and it needs to change.

Eh? The vibe your getting? Have you seriously looked at the problem of inequality in the north, which has vastly improved since my fathers time as a young man. Or the sectarian and racist problems unionist areas have that go unaddressed.

Sinn Fein will speak out against any sort of sectarianism or racism. Whether it's protestant, catholic, black, white, ethnic minority. You can check out their record on that.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And well done on that - credit where credit's due. Now if only they could be as open to weeding out the collusion and double-speak of their own interests.

You've lost me.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

When quizzed on it, they also seem to rely on pointing fingers in relation to what others are doing, rather than ensuring that they have the high moral ground. While they have no control over others, and can only hope to influence them gradually, they have full control over their own stances. And fixing those stances would make their influence less gradual, as they would increase their credibility and their fitness for office.

They have their own policies and aims like every other political party. If you don't support them, that's fair enough. But they are entitled to point out wrongs as they see them and argue their own case

Jason Mc

It's funny that they are associated with people from working class backgrounds or should I say "knackers" to please some of the more gifted on boards

I have a degree, have worked as a retails manager for over 5 years and am currently working as a computer programmer.

On my tea break I was talking about teh vote. There were 5 of us all with university educations and all of us said we are voting for DeBruin

Stabshauptmann

ionix5891 wrote: »

hahahahaha

let me fix that for you

If Sinn Fein were in power in the RoI there would have been no boom and plenty of squander

you forgetting they are the ones who didn't want us in EU...

.

If thats the edited version of the post to correct typos, Id hate to have seen the original.

In future, do yourself a favour and read posts 3 times before you reply.

kmick

prinz wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0528/1224247598666.html

And you wonder why people wouldn't vote for them? Same bullyboy tactics the Nazi party used to come to power.

Oh yeah I forgot in my original post to mention all the SF candidates appear to the casual observer to be liars. Their view on what constitutes the truth seems to be at odds with the truth itself in most cases. Dathi is at it in the article above. I can understand why you would want to disassociate yourself from people who murder other people over a petty squabble - what I can't understand is why you would associate yourself with them in the first place.

As an aside Aengus Ó Snodaigh TD??? WTF....the guy can barely talk.

Liam Byrne

Can'tseeme wrote: »

I was talking about the political speak of Jim Allister towards the IRA. The scaremongering, the guns issue, etc.

If neutrals agree with him on some of those points, then it's hardly scaremongering.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Sinn Fein have consitently said that the IRA had did wrong but that ALL of it was wrong on ALL sides.

It's always fudged, in that it was "the Brits" fault for not acting on the warning, or it was an "unauthorised" operation, or that "something went wrong". The IRA never accepts full responsibility and Sinn Fein always toes that line.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Eh? The vibe your getting? Have you seriously looked at the problem of inequality in the north, which has vastly improved since my fathers time as a young man. Or the sectarian and racist problems unionist areas have that go unaddressed.

Sinn Fein will speak out against any sort of sectarianism or racism. Whether it's protestant, catholic, black, white, ethnic minority. You can check out their record on that.

Explain to me again why they're looking for unionists to do their utmost re the killing at the weekend - to the point of having it on the Sinn Fein website - but haven't actively looked for justice and closure re Robert McCartney and Jerry McCabe - not mentioned on their website. Why even ask "the unionists" and make a political point-score ? Why not ask everyone ?

The fact is that I - and other neutrals - don't give a flying f**k whether those people were Protestant or Catholic; they were innocent and they were killed.

So the next time someone is murdered, I'd love to hear the news report not even mention "what" they were; they were a person. Period.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

You've lost me.

Q : "Is murder wrong ?"
A : "Depends on who did it"

Q : "Was there collusion, deliberate targetted action, or something underhand ?"
A : "If it was the Brits, definitely. If it was the IRA, it was unauthorised or an accident"

Can'tseeme wrote: »

They have their own policies and aims like every other political party. If you don't support them, that's fair enough. But they are entitled to point out wrongs as they see them and argue their own case

As are we. And without being accused of being "west brit" or unpatriotic or some such blinkered rubbish, which regularly happens here and elsewhere.

Sinn Fein's version of being Irish is not the only one. Some of us want an open, honest and responsible country that respects law and order and equality for everyone.

Stabshauptmann

To be honest, I was on a tour of the Dail this time last year (more or less) and a Sinn Fein TD was making a point, I think it was about the traffic corps being under resourced and the response from the minister was "ah be quiet, your a provo" or something equally lame to which the whole house applauded.

Fight them on the issues.