Why is Sein Fein such a dirty word down south?

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You know well what I'm talking about.

Unless you're specific, no. Otherwise my psychic powers would have garnered sufficient wealth for me to employ a stand-in for these threads.

Aidric

Arthuar Morgan's performance on Vincent Browne last night sums them up. He couldn't give any coherent lines on the parties economic policy and spent the night spouting uninformed man on the street rhetoric. When challenged on the parties line on the stamp duty issue from a couple of years back he conceded he couldn't remember.

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The majority of people are irrational in their decision making.

Look at the amount of muppets who keep voting for FF no matter how many dodgy planning decision, evidence of corruption etc.
Look at the amount of muppets who keep supporting the Catholic Church when they had systematic abuse of children and covered it all up.

Unfortunately we have to deal with muppetry everywhere.

Its called democracy. Ok FF and Bertie have pulled the wool over many peoples eyes over the past number of years. They will get their comeuppance tomorrow rest assured.
The CC pulled the wool over peoples eyes for years aswell. It all comes out in the end.

Nordies wouldn't vote for SF if they felt another party could represent them better.

bmaxi

SF have a long road to travel before they can disassociate themselves with violence and thuggery. I personally have been told by a former SF councillor that I would be "sorted" for taking him to task on an issue.
While it could be argued that this is a personality flaw in the person themselves, to me it just demonstrates the type of individual the organisation attracts and tolerates.

jmayo

IIMII wrote: »

No, not a different country, just a different polical experience. He came through the ranks of war politics and hasn't adapted well to the cut and thrust of parliamentary politics. That is understandable - those who were active in nationalist politics in the north were never in a position to engage in effective parliamentary politics, for a variety of reasons.

I think you will find it is a different country, it might be the same island but there are serious differences between NI and ROI, and the rhetoric that SF can use in "the North" is totally out of place in "the South".
There isn't a huge tribal divide here that they can easily tap into.

AFAIK Fitt, Hume and Mallon gave parliamentary politics a go, long before SF decided that they need to get serious about political struggle as well as military struggle.

A few reasons people in ROI will not vote for SF.
Close links with PIRA in the past and consoidered by many to be linked to the diesel laundering, smuggling gangs based in South Armagh.
Armed struggle may be over but Slab Murphy and the boys leave people uneasy.
Paul Quinn's death in Monaghan.
Robert Mccartney's death.
Gerry McCabe death and refusal of Ms Ferris to come out and condemm killers.
Northern bank job question marks.
Fact that SF only recognised the Dáil, allowing TDs to take their seats, in 1986 and upto that point SF had viewed the IRA Army Council as the legitimate government of Ireland.
SF is still led by the same people today as way back then.

Now no other party in the South carries this type of baggage.

Added to that SF economic policy is crap and not acceptable to most voters.
Irritating habit of members talking in some type of rehearsed sinn fein speak.
Sometimes they make some of our poltical party muppets look positively inspired and forthcoming.
SF views on EU.

Latest revelations that SF are just as bad as all the other parties in Westminister, although their expense taking is even more laughable since they haven't taken their seats in parliament :rolleyes:

Mary Lou Mc Donald just irriates the sh** out of me and many others.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin comes across well, but that's about it as regards their major players in ROI.

thethedev

I know a sinn feinn candidate personally, if they put ****/hate filled brainwashed people up for local elections than god knows what their leader is like.
If a sinn feinn candidate calls to my door I really am going to raise this issue with them.
Ógra Sinn Feinn are almost like the nazi youth in some ways.

LordSutch

Jason Mc wrote: »

All these parties arguing about not wanting to go in collation with the Sein Fein.

Why is that?

Obviously they have links with the (P)IRA. Is this the main reason?

Yes, this is the main reason people down south don't vote fot them > far too much baggage + the fact that for thirty years we watched Adams/McGuinness & co refusing to condem IRA Bombings, Knee cappings, & Murders of all types, personally speaking, I witnessed far too many bodies being scraped off the pavements (courtesy of the IRA) to ever actually vote for them.

God help the Shinner who comes to my front door looking for a vote.

Tim Robbins

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Its called democracy. Ok FF and Bertie have pulled the wool over many peoples eyes over the past number of years. They will get their comeuppance tomorrow rest assured.
The CC pulled the wool over peoples eyes for years aswell. It all comes out in the end.

You are missing the point. People still support them no matter what. That's irrationality of it.

Imagine an organisation abuses children, gets away with it and people still go and support it on a weekly basis?

Sinn Fein's main put off factor here is their association with knackers.
Which of course is an irrational reason, but people vote irrationally.

Nordies wouldn't vote for SF if they felt another party could represent them better.

Nordies are no more rational than anyone else. In fact, the environment they grow up in if anything would just make them even more irrational.

It's not a normal environment, but by the time they realise that most other western democracies don't paint their curb stones, have marches, take religion seriously, all the cultural hard wiring sub concious programming has been finished. Unless they are extremly intelligent and strong willed - it's curtains for most of them.

Erin Go Brath

Liam Byrne wrote: »

:rolleyes: If they reckon it's an "artificial border", it would certainly seem so!

Not wanting to get drawn into another border debate. I'll just say the decision to create a border with an inbuilt unionist majority was an undemocratic one. With the threat of a "terrible and immediate war" Irish representatives agreed reluctantly to it and the rest is history.

Nodin

thethedev wrote: »

I know a sinn feinn candidate personally, if they put ****/hate filled brainwashed people up for local elections than god knows what their leader is like.
If a sinn feinn candidate calls to my door I really am going to raise this issue with them.
Ógra Sinn Feinn are almost like the nazi youth in some ways.

I know a Fianna Failer whose corrupt. I don't have to name him though thankfully, as that would take the joy out of sly libel by anecdote.

thethedev

Do you want me to name him? I think the site will delete the post anyway if I do

sceptre

If it's something that's going to activate my libel alarm, don't even think about it.

If it's something that isn't going to cause that alarm to ring, then you're free to discuss.

Erin Go Brath

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You are missing the point. People still support them no matter what. That's irrationality of it.

Imagine an organisation abuses children, gets away with it and people still go and support it on a weekly basis?

Sinn Fein's main put off factor here is their association with knackers.
Which of course is an irrational reason, but people vote irrationally.


Nordies are no more rational than anyone else. In fact, the environment they grow up in if anything would just make them even more irrational.

It's not a normal environment, but by the time they realise that most other western democracies don't paint their curb stones, have marches, take religion seriously, all the cultural hard wiring sub concious programming has been finished. Unless they are extremly intelligent and strong willed - it's curtains for most of them.

"Their association with knackers". I presume you are referring to inhabitants of less well off areas. We're not all fortunate enough to have been born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Your disdain for working class people is quite sickening tbh.

The north is indeed not a normal environment. If a section of people have been virtually second class citizens due to religion/nationality etc they are bound to vote for the party that addresses that issue the most. Its hardly irrational to do so. Perhaps some of these people would have voted for FF, FG, Lab but none of those parties have ever shown an interest in representing people in the north so we'll never know.

Liam Byrne

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Not wanting to get drawn into another border debate. I'll just say the decision to create a border with an inbuilt unionist majority was an undemocratic one. With the threat of a "terrible and immediate war" Irish representatives agreed reluctantly to it and the rest is history.

Brilliant! Someone says that they don't want to get drawn into another debate and then ensures that they get the last word in.... :rolleyes:

The fact is that the border IS THERE. It's not "artificial".

You're saying that it was undemocratic because of the threat of violence. And yet you'd suggest that advance in democracy have been made because of the threat of violence by the IRA ?

I think it's been said elsewhere that IF the threat of violence caused the decision to accept that border, THEN a similar threat (and carrying out) of violence caused most of us to accept the GFA; so IF you're of the above view, then you'd have to agree that someone could similarly argue that the GFA, the subsequent release of criminals, and Sinn Fein's involvement in the Northern Assembly - are equally "undemocratic".

But they were decided on and they exist. FACT.

Unless you want us to put all the criminals back into jail and remove Sinn Fein from power in the North.

Anyways, this is dragging us off topic (as usual).....the fact is that despite what you or I might WANT, the border exists and is not artificial.

You want the border not to exist, but it does. Saying otherwise won't change that (while ironically, "let's see what we can do to remove it" might).

I want a night with Deanna Russo - doesn't make it so.

the_syco

Jason Mc wrote: »

Do you all think they would have made as big a bollix of the economy as bertie and his band of merry men have made?

Worse. They wanted to hike out corpo taxes so far up, no foreign company would come here.

Can'tseeme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"The same mud throwing rhetoric ?" The same as what, exactly ?

Y'see therein lies some of the problem.....phrases like "mud throwing rhetoric" and "usual guff".

Why are genuine concerns and issues with SF never seen as such ?

If someone neutral has a genuine issue with them, using criteria that they would equally apply to FF or the DUP or whoever - why is it immediately and automatically dismissed using such phrases ?

We could take this usual debate about Sinn Fein around in circles again. But what would be the point? Your going to look at it from the same pov as the likes of Jim Allister. You'll probably go on about the IRA blowing up shopping centres and I'll be telling you that you've not got a clue, how it was to be living up north as a nationalist or from a catholic background.

My point is regarding the political speak of the parties about Sinn Fein will change like the DUP's has. The more the peace grows, the further stability in the north, the more attitudes towards Sinn Fein will change.

From a northern perspective, after the ceasefire in the mid-90's is when the nationalist Sinn Fein vote really took off. They worked tirelessly towards ending the conflict, they fought hard and are winning in the fight against inequality, sectarianism and racism, they're the only party that exposed the collusion of unionism/loyalism and the security forces and the work they have done in local communities has transformed areas.

Tim Robbins

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

"Their association with knackers". I presume you are referring to inhabitants of less well off areas. We're not all fortunate enough to have been born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Your disdain for working class people is quite sickening tbh.

The north is indeed not a normal environment. If a section of people have been virtually second class citizens due to religion/nationality etc they are bound to vote for the party that addresses that issue the most. Its hardly irrational to do so. Perhaps some of these people would have voted for FF, FG, Lab but none of those parties have ever shown an interest in representing people in the north so we'll never know.

Would you get out of here with your "working class" rhetoric. The origin of that term was in times when people worked long 12 hour days, seven days a week and had no time for leisure. That's why they were referred to as the "working" class. Now the only people who work those hours are IT people who are on a deadline and their job is on the line.

The knackers I refer to don't work, don't want to work or contribute constructively to the common good.

I also don't like arrogant prats from the upper socio-economic bracket. Economically, I'm just a middle of the road bloke who just tries to call a spade a spade.

CiDeRmAn

They are a party that never has to come up with real solutions to economic problems because it knows that it won't be in any position to influence fiscal matters for some time to come.
They are a party who have supported terrorism, as the political wing, an integral part of an illegal army who commited heinous acts in OUR name. They claimed to be, somehow, the true army of the legitimate Irish republic and so killed and intimidated hundreds whilst seeking an intellectual justification for their brutal behaviour.
They highjacked the civil rights movement and replaced that with their own agenda, acting against the proper government of the Irish republic, and the Irish states agreement over partition.
If the Irish government contributed to anything in the rise of the republican paramilitary it was the weak leadership they gave to the thousands of Irish citizens who reside in Ulster.
Now Sinn Fein claim to be "democratic", they who denied the democratic wishes of the people of this island to persue their own military objectives.
They manipulate the politically ignorant and use grandstanding rhetoric to persuade people to vote their way.

Mary Lou McDonald is a tireless self publicist, a person who latched onto Sein Fein as a party that can get her power and favour quickly, and Sinn Fein latched onto her to provide a socially acceptable mask to shroud their true substace.

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

Tim Robbins

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

I agree with this. But I think there's also a class element to it. The RC Church has done more harm to more humans in the Republic than SF have.

But they maintain a lot of their support. They are associated with well meaning grannies and loads of middle of the road people. Everyone has a granny who worshipped the pope.

If they were associated with knackers predominately they wouldn't get this.

Liam Byrne

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Your going to look at it from the same pov as the likes of Jim Allister.

Here we go again. How could I possibly look at it from the same pov as Jim Allister ? He's a unionist.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

You'll probably go on about the IRA blowing up shopping centres

So they didn't blow up shopping centres, then ?

Can'tseeme wrote: »

I'll be telling you that you've not got a clue how it was to be living up north as a nationalist or from a catholic background.

And in this you'd be right.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

My point is regarding the political speak of the parties about Sinn Fein will change like the DUP's has. The more the peace grows, the further stability in the north, the more attitudes towards Sinn Fein will change.

It's not just up to everyone else to change their attitudes; Sinn Fein's own attitudes will have to change too. Not least their usual stance of everyone else being wrong/corrupt/in collusion, while they excuse their own "side".

If they expect to be given the benefit of the doubt, they need to give it too.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

they fought hard and are winning in the fight against inequality, sectarianism and racism

From what I've seen and heard they're only fighting against HALF of it. That's not a bias, it's the vibe they give off from their statements, and it needs to change.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

they're the only party that exposed the collusion of unionism/loyalism and the security forces

And well done on that - credit where credit's due. Now if only they could be as open to weeding out the collusion and double-speak of their own interests.

When quizzed on it, they also seem to rely on pointing fingers in relation to what others are doing, rather than ensuring that they have the high moral ground. While they have no control over others, and can only hope to influence them gradually, they have full control over their own stances. And fixing those stances would make their influence less gradual, as they would increase their credibility and their fitness for office.

meglome

I'd like to start this by saying I've never voted for Sinn Fein nor do I agree with quite a lot of their polices, especially the economic ones.

That said I think there is very much a bias to Sinn Fein in the middle classes in this country. It seems people would rather vote for the devil himself than Sinn Fein. I dunno it's like they are untouchable and sullied so cannot be voted for. It seems to be about a lot more than just policies. The 'war' is over so that shouldn't be the case. Sure they are connected with some dodgy people, a bit like Fianna Fail only Sinn Fein haven't screwed us as much. And to be honest I think if they ever got into government the realities of it would knock many of the rough edges off.

Now while I don't agree with their economic policies I'd have to wonder could they have done a worse job than Fianna Fail.

I'm just sayin...

ionix5891

meglome wrote: »

I'd like to start this by saying I've never voted for Sinn Fein nor do I agree with quite a lot of their polices, especially the economic ones.

That said I think there is very much a bias to Sinn Fein in the middle classes in this country. It seems people would rather vote for the devil himself than Sinn Fein. I dunno it's like they are untouchable and sullied so cannot be voted for. It seems to be about a lot more than just policies. The 'war' is over so that shouldn't be the case. Sure they are connected with some dodgy people, a bit like Fianna Fail only Sinn Fein haven't screwed us as much.

Now while I don't agree with their economic policies I'd have to wonder could they have done a worse job than Fianna Fail.

I'm just sayin...

dodgy people with guns...

meglome

ionix5891 wrote: »

dodgy people with guns...

And still with these guns they haven't raped the entire country.

ionix5891

meglome wrote: »

And still with these guns they haven't raped the entire country.

they are being kept busy up north

meglome

ionix5891 wrote: »

they are being kept busy up north

They seem to get an awful lot of votes in the North for people who are supposedly so bad.

Nodin

ionix5891 wrote: »

dodgy people with guns...

Decommissioned, if you care to recall.

ionix5891 wrote: »

they are being kept busy up north ...

...on the policing board, councils and assemblies, I presume you mean.

ionix5891

meglome wrote: »

They seem to get an awful lot of votes in the North for people who are supposedly so bad.

who else would they vote for, politics up there are still split down sectarian lines

Nodin wrote: »

Decommissioned, if you care to recall.
.

something on the news about police and soldiers being murdered recently?


ok ill shut up now, dont want some balaclava wearing due knocking on my door

prinz

meglome wrote: »

They seem to get an awful lot of votes in the North for people who are supposedly so bad.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0528/1224247598666.html

And you wonder why people wouldn't vote for them? Same bullyboy tactics the Nazi party used to come to power.

Erin Go Brath

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

They are a party that never has to come up with real solutions to economic problems because it knows that it won't be in any position to influence fiscal matters for some time to come.

As opposed to our current Govt and their policies which have us in the great situation we are in right now.

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

They are a party who have supported terrorism, as the political wing, an integral part of an illegal army who commited heinous acts in OUR name. They claimed to be, somehow, the true army of the legitimate Irish republic and so killed and intimidated hundreds whilst seeking an intellectual justification for their brutal behaviour.
They highjacked the civil rights movement and replaced that with their own agenda, acting against the proper government of the Irish republic, and the Irish states agreement over partition.

As opposed to FF, FG, and Labour who all stood idly bye while the Unionist militia colluded with police to murder Catholic civilians. FF, FG, Lab have NO MORAL GROUND for not intervening in these atrocities.

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

If the Irish government contributed to anything in the rise of the republican paramilitary it was the weak leadership they gave to the thousands of Irish citizens who reside in Ulster.
Now Sinn Fein claim to be "democratic", they who denied the democratic wishes of the people of this island to persue their own military objectives.
They manipulate the politically ignorant and use grandstanding rhetoric to persuade people to vote their way.

SF should have just stood aside (like the other nationalist parties) while British/Unionist Governments ran roughshod over the nationalist people?

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Mary Lou McDonald is a tireless self publicist, a person who latched onto Sein Fein as a party that can get her power and favour quickly, and Sinn Fein latched onto her to provide a socially acceptable mask to shroud their true substace.

As opposed to other candidates. A politican wanting power, stop the lights!

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

The party is a filthy insult to all those who cherish democracy and abhor violence.
You just have to ask the family of Garda McCabe to understand the type of scum you are dealing with here.

All in the past. Meanwhile in the present tense, the current Govt is ruining our economy, bailing out banks with taxpayers money, presiding over huge job loses, and plunging thousands of people into debt.

meglome

ionix5891 wrote: »

who else would they vote for, politics up there are still split down sectarian lines

I didn't realise that nationalists in the north only had one party they could vote for.