Why is Sein Fein such a dirty word down south?

Tim Robbins

2-D Man wrote: »

SF are not stuck in the past, it's FG who are, they constantly bring up the IRA etc. The IRA have been on ceasefire for 15 years, maybe you should grow up an realise that SF are the fastest growing party in this country (north and south) and in a few years will be a force to be reckoned with.

Would you agree that there isn't anyone in the entire SF set up that has anything close to a reasonable knowledge of things like world economics and geo-politics?

They are quite parochial and one-eyed in their thinking, I find. They're a bit like those people you cringe when you meet on holidays because all they do is were celtic tops and sing the fields of Athenry.

Can'tseeme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Oh, so my views are because I'm "pent up" ? Thanks for that.....I thought they were just the result of being careful of who I trust and believe, wanting like treated with like, and wanting equal justice for all.

I guess I'd better get out of the way and go for counselling, leaving Toireasa Ferris & Co to continue with their election campaign unhindered by genuine concerns and questions.

As for being "pent up", if I am then it's probably down to having been accused of being a "west brit" and "unpatriotic" earlier in the week.

Imagine, "west brit", "unpatriotic" and now "pent up".......amazing the accusations that fly when you say "I don't believe SF and I want elected representatives to condemn murder". :rolleyes:

What next, I wonder ?

But sure you ignore the answers to concerns anyway and we all end up at square one. You refuse to acknowledge the progress and work they put into finding an endgame to the conflict, that they now sit in government with the DUP, that they sit on the PSNI board, encourage nationalists to join the PSNI, are heavily involved in cross community work to combat sectarianism in the north. But no, we end up going around in circles and how they're a bunch of gangsters.

Liam Byrne

partyguinness wrote: »

....if you are going to get this worked up over posts from strangers then you will get very bitter angry

Keep it in context...relax..

Fair enough - you have a point in that the opinion of someone talking through their arse (and I don't mean you with that comment) shouldn't get to me.

But yes, it IS frustrating when people who believe that THEIR view of what it means to be Irish post here and and later send a PM questioning your Irish-ness....

So apologies if that spilled over into this thread a little....

But I stand over the gist of my posts......Sinn Fein might have made progress (the amount of which is debatable depending on whether you believe what they say) but they have a LONG way to go - and a few changes to make to their stance - before neutrals will accept them or vote for them.

Tim Robbins

Can'tseeme wrote: »

But sure you ignore the answers to concerns anyway and we all end up at square one. You refuse to acknowledge the progress and work they put into finding an endgame to the conflict, that they now sit in government with the DUP, that they sit on the PSNI board, encourage nationalists to join the PSNI, are heavily involved in cross community work to combat sectarianism in the north. But no, we end up going around in circles and how they're a bunch of gangsters.

That's a ridiculous point. There's no reason they couldn't have done all that 30 years ago and have saved a few thousand lives.

dvpower

So remind me again why their store is still selling these:
http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/cata...Anewtshirt.jpg
http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/cata...wiratshirt.JPG

Nodin wrote: »

Why not?
If you haven't an argument to make, don't try to fill the gap with t-shirts.

The T-Shirts illustrate a major reason why many people wouldn't consider voting Sinn Fein - their relationship with the IRA.

partyguinness

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you agree that there isn't anyone in the entire SF set up that has anything close to a reasonable knowledge of things like world economics and geo-politics?

They are quite parochial and one-eyed in their thinking, I find. They're a bit like those people you cringe when you meet on holidays because all they do is were celtic tops and sing the fields of Athenry.

I find it hilarious that the very people who criticise SF for their economic policies are the very people/politicians/so-called experts who have got this country into the economic mess it is in...:rolleyes:

How many FG/Labour politicians have had a much access to the White House as SF politicians?

Look at the 'fact-finding' missions to Colombia, Palestine and Cuba for examplt?:D

SF are far more world wise than you might think...;)

And sure isnt all politics local? Most supporters/memeber of FF or FG are just in the party beacuse of their family.

In rural areas its mostly farmers who left school at 16 and still fighting the Civil War that campaign for FF or FG..are you seriously trying to tell me that your local FG/FF Councillor etc is au fait with world politics or economics...I dont think so.

Liam Byrne

Can'tseeme wrote: »

But sure you ignore the answers to concerns anyway and we all end up at square one.

There are no "answers" to some of my main concerns relating to them. I won't recreate the Ferris thread here, but that's a 100% genuine concern and it means that there is no way she's acceptable as a representative while she and her party do not change that stance.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

You refuse to acknowledge the progress and work they put into finding an endgame to the conflict, that they now sit in government with the DUP, that they sit on the PSNI board, encourage nationalists to join the PSNI, are heavily involved in cross community work to combat sectarianism in the north.

Different country, different culture, different rules. See the thread title.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

But no, we end up going around in circles and how they're a bunch of gangsters.

And will continue to be viewed as such until they condemn murder and treat like with like. And until those who point out such things are not dismissed as unpatriotic, west brit or whatever.

I genuinely hope that day comes, when what they say will be 100% consistent, believeable, and acceptable to the majority; but I would be concerned that if they ever do that then the blinkered extremists that still exist will view that they've "sold out" / "given in" or whatever.....

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

The T-Shirts illustrate a major reason why many people wouldn't consider voting Sinn Fein - their relationship with the IRA.

Their past relationship. Well, if they want to take that view.....

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

Their past relationship. Well, if they want to take that view.....

They're currently on sale.

solice

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I genuinely hope that day comes, when what they say will be 100% consistent, believeable, and acceptable to the majority; but I would be concerned that if they ever do that then the blinkered extremists that still exist will view that they've "sold out" / "given in" or whatever.....

To some degree this has already happened, Republican Sinn Fein are running a handful of candidates in the Local Elections.

Dob74

The only reason why Sinn Fein is such a dirty word in the south, is that they are a threat to the other politial parties.
Vincent Brown jumped down T.Ferris' throat about the murder of Jerry MacCabe.
She made the valid point that she was 16 at the time.

Should FG be questioned about Eoin O'Duffy's spainish brigade?
FF about the murder of Kevin O'Higgins? CJH gun running?

If the numbers added up any party would go into government with Sinn Fein.

dvpower

Nodin wrote: »

Their past relationship. Well, if they want to take that view.....

... they are perfectly entitled to do so.

I would find it difficult to support a candidate that was involved in violence or condoned violence. Granted, the new crop coming through are 'clean' (for want of a better word), but I would still find it difficult to vote for a party that contains senior members that have been involved in serious violent crime. Maybe in a generation or so.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

They're currently on sale.

Yes, they are. Hopefully they will be for the future too.

Would you prefer for them to pretend they never supported the IRA?

Tim Robbins

partyguinness wrote: »

I find it hilarious that the very people who criticise SF for their economic policies are the very people/politicians/so-called experts who have got this country into the economic mess it is in...:rolleyes:

That's absolutely absurd. You either a SF voter or you brought the country to economic mess.

Look at the 'fact-finding' missions to Colombia, Palestine and Cuba for examplt?:D

SF are far more world wise than you might think...;)

I have never heard a SF politician speak intelligently about global economics and I watched several political programs every week.

And sure isnt all politics local? Most supporters/memeber of FF or FG are just in the party beacuse of their family.

No. The credit crunch and neo liberal economics which are major issues are anything but local.

In rural areas its mostly farmers who left school at 16 and still fighting the Civil War that campaign for FF or FG..are you seriously trying to tell me that your local FG/FF Councillor etc is au fait with world politics or economics...I dont think so.

A load of them haven't a clue.
However, the difference is in the other parties there's usually a few front bench types who have a bit of clue of complex issues such as geo politics and give the impression they would read a few books other than nationalistic struggles.

SF types give the impression that they are obsessed with nationalism. It underpins everything. They are like extreme religious people who think their God underpins everything. It then clouds their thinking or just shuts off thier thinking on more important issues.

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

I would find it difficult to support a candidate that was involved in violence or condoned violence. Granted, the new crop coming through are 'clean' (for want of a better word), but I would still find it difficult to vote for a party that contains senior members that have been involved in serious violent crime. Maybe in a generation or so.

...and I hope you apply that across the board and not just to PSF.

Tim Robbins

Dob74 wrote: »

The only reason why Sinn Fein is such a dirty word in the south, is that they are a threat to the other politial parties.
Vincent Brown jumped down T.Ferris' throat about the murder of Jerry MacCabe.
She made the valid point that she was 16 at the time.

Should FG be questioned about Eoin O'Duffy's spainish brigade?
FF about the murder of Kevin O'Higgins? CJH gun running?

If the numbers added up any party would go into government with Sinn Fein.

I don't think FG voters or the FG website sympathises with violent people. Bit of a difference.

Nodin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't think FG voters or the FG website sympathises with violent people. Bit of a difference.

Go to
http://www.finegael.org/links/

3rd down is this

Collins 22 Society

The website of the Collins 22 Society, commemorating the life and times of Michael Collins, Chairman of the Provisional Government and First Commander in Chief of of the Irish National Army

http://generalmichaelcollins.com/index.html

Unless Mick has been redubbed a pacifist, I'd say you're wrong.

dvpower

Nodin wrote: »

...and I hope you apply that across the board and not just to PSF.

Why do you hope for this. Do you agree with my stance?

Dob74

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't think FG voters or the FG website sympathises with violent people. Bit of a difference.

Sinn Fein dont either, (in public anyway)

I would be in total disgust with SF over the Northern Bank robbery.
But compared to the Bankers we have, they are only amateur thieves.

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

Why do you hope for this. Do you agree with my stance?

No, but if its consistent its at least an honourable one.

Can'tseeme

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's a ridiculous point. There's no reason they couldn't have done all that 30 years ago and have saved a few thousand lives.

36 years ago Sinn Fein was an illegal organisation, inequality had not been tackled, the RUC was a corrupted, sectarian force, events in Bombay street, bloody Sunday, the bogside, Ballymurphy, internment were only a couple of years before. So to say tensions were raw would be an understatment. But still the majority of nationalists supported Sunningdale. As you well know Unionists brought that down.

solice

Dob74 wrote: »

The only reason why Sinn Fein is such a dirty word in the south, is that they are a threat to the other politial parties.
Vincent Brown jumped down T.Ferris' throat about the murder of Jerry MacCabe.
She made the valid point that she was 16 at the time.

Should FG be questioned about Eoin O'Duffy's spainish brigade?
FF about the murder of Kevin O'Higgins? CJH gun running?

If the numbers added up any party would go into government with Sinn Fein.

Just because she was 16 at the time doesnt mean she hasnt formed an opinion on it by now?

Interesting point about Eoin O Duffy and Kevin O Higgins etc. What is the official FG and FF policy on these episodes of their past?

Tim Robbins

Can'tseeme wrote: »

36 years ago Sinn Fein was an illegal organisation, inequality had not been tackled, the RUC was a corrupted, sectarian force, events in Bombay street, bloody Sunday, the bogside, Ballymurphy, internment were only a couple of years before. So to say tensions were raw would be an understatment.

There were two parties which representated people from the backgrounds you described. One promoted violence the other was against it.

there was no need for Sinn Fein, the violence etc imo.

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

...and I hope you apply that across the board and not just to PSF.

What makes you even remotely think that he mightn't ?

I've repeatedly said that the above is my position, and it's not just regarding violence, either; ALL FF & Green (and SF) candidates had a blank space alongside them on my voting card.

Why ?

Because corruption and incompetence and wastage are good reasons not to vote for someone too.

Violence & murder might ensure I don't vote for someone, but so do corruption and incompetence.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

But still the majority of nationalists supported Sunningdale. As you well know Unionists brought that down.

:eek: VERY odd one, that - someone said earlier that the IRA rejected it first. If that's true, then the Unionists couldn't have "brought it down", because there was no agreement. And if "the majority of nationalists supported it", why did the IRA reject it ? Who gave them the veto over what "the majority of nationalists" supported ?

I don't know, btw - I'm just going on what I was told earlier.

Tarzan007 wrote: »

Sunningdale was all about undermining support for the IRA promising reforms and implying a United Ireland was in the pipeline with the Council of Ireland. The IRA rejected it and so did their network of supporters. Seeing it as failing in it's task, the British govt allowed Paisley ( and the UUP including David Trimble ) and their his rag tag followers to hijack the north, and then use the excuse they were suspending it due to the possibility of great bloodshed etc.

So which was it ?

Dob74

solice wrote: »

Just because she was 16 at the time doesnt mean she hasnt formed an opinion on it by now?

Interesting point about Eoin O Duffy and Kevin O Higgins etc. What is the official FG and FF policy on these episodes of their past?

I dont know about O'Duffy, but considering he was a founding member of FG and they haven't changed there name. I would say it implies approval.

CJH was invovled in gun running in 1970 and leader of the country by 1979. This would also imply approval of the party.

To my knowledge Sinn Fein's official party line is that they dont condone voilence since the cease fire.

Sinn Fein are similiar to FF in the 1930's.

solice

Just because they didnt change the name really doesnt mean anything about policy...

Can'tseeme

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There are no "answers" to some of my main concerns relating to them. I won't recreate the Ferris thread here, but that's a 100% genuine concern and it means that there is no way she's acceptable as a representative while she and her party do not change that stance.

No, I think it's answers that you will not accept.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Different country, different culture, different rules. See the thread title.

Cop out answer. They're an all Ireland party. So they're ok in the north, cross the boder and they're gangsters? Cop out.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And will continue to be viewed as such until they condemn murder and treat like with like. And until those who point out such things are not dismissed as unpatriotic, west brit or whatever.

I genuinely hope that day comes, when what they say will be 100% consistent, believeable, and acceptable to the majority; but I would be concerned that if they ever do that then the blinkered extremists that still exist will view that they've "sold out" / "given in" or whatever.....

Again... you've said to me in an earlier post that you've no idea what it was like for a nationalist or person from a catholic background living in the north. So it will be difficult for you to understand why the conflict happened. Therefore you're stance on Sinn Fein and this constant merry-go-round, 10 years after the GFA

junder

Rebelheart wrote: »

Interesting post, Junder. I note he was charged more by the firebrigade coming from Derry which adds to my original point.

Ara I wouldn't worry about all that UK stuff. Sure what with the EU deciding everything and the Scots looking for freedom and all sorts of other commotions its days are numbered. At least in the old empire times the rabble could be sent abroad to civilise the natives and the Scots could be bought off by positions in the same Empire. After the wars are done, politics and nation-making is primarily (if not entirely) about buying people off and the resources aren't in the UK for that anymore. It's no coincidence that the rise in Scottish nationalism correlates with the decline of the British Empire.

Come on, join us in the European Union, Junder. Share our wonderful metric system and currency with 175 million of your fellow countrymen. The king is dead; long live the king!

well the fire engine was having to travel into a foreign country and no harm to but the fire brigade does not charge us in northern ireland, mind you one wonders why you had to have a fore engine from northern ireland come into thr RoI, you saw you have enough fire engines down there?.
On the subject of the thread its interesting to note that while sinn fein wants corperate tax raised in the RoI it wants in lowered in NI and while some of you say its anti european in the RoI, in the NI it wants us to join the Euro. When it comes down to it sinn fein is nothing but a protest party thats why the majorty of its policys have a ad hoc nature to them, now thats its in government in Northern Ireland it is increasingly having to steal the SDLP's clothes on real hard and and fast politics since the SDLP atleast have experince of real politics ie the day to day bean counting that needs to be done to run a country and not standing on street corners yelling Brits out down megaphones.

kmick

At the end of it all they are the type of party you will either love or hate. They certainly wont ever get my vote until they stop the policy of obfuscation e.g. claiming they are europhiles and then campaigining agaist Lisbon. And this is coming from a person who would have voted No for Lisbon had I been in the country so I didnt necessarily disagree with their stance on it.

Liam Byrne

Can'tseeme wrote: »

No, I think it's answers that you will not accept.

Unacceptable answers.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Cop out answer. They're an all Ireland party. So they're ok in the north, cross the boder and they're gangsters? Cop out.

By no means a cop-out, and already dealt with. The Northern Irish voters voted on sectarian and extremist lines, and that has to be respected. It's THEIR choice. So they were forced together in a power-sharing executive.

Down here, we don't vote based on "religion" or sectarian background (I don't even know what religion the candidates I voted for in today's election are, and I don't care) and we don't vote for gangsters (well, we do, but not ones that kill) so it's a COMPLETELY different story.

But if you want to dismiss that as a cop-out, fire away. Any neutral will see it as a fact.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Therefore you're stance on Sinn Fein and this constant merry-go-round, 10 years after the GFA

Nothing WHATSOEVER to do with "10 years after the GFA".

Ferris & Co were asked a "law & order" question in the run-up to the election, and they answered with their view. In theory, everyone's entitled to their view, but they'll be judged on it.

Their view is incompatible with my view, and I don't think she - or anyone who thinks that way - should be in office.

Simple as that.

Remember, it's HER view (or her towing the party line) that's the reason SF is a "dirty word". So stop trying to blame me for that.