stupid question: how do you actually vote?

peasant

I can't vote in national elections and have to admit that up to now I've never bothered to vote in local/EU elections ...so I'm a virgin to the Irish voting system.

Now, I'm registered and have the polling card and all that ...I'm just a bit hazy on where to mark the x (Do you even mark an x?) and how many votes I've actually got. And what's all this preference vote thingy?

Anyone got a handy link where I could actually see an example polling card?

TheInquisitor

all details and explanations are on the card your given. Its simple

bluefinger

just give each politician a vote in order of preference. ie go into booth and mark one, two, three etc. in order of your choice. also if you want to get someone out, make sure you give them the lowest preference possible.

peasant

Could I just mark one single candidate with "1" and ignore the rest for example?

Scofflaw

There's a list of names (with pics), and a box beside each one for your preference. As bluefinger said, write 1, 2, 3 etc in the boxes beside the candidates you want - 1 for the person you most want, and down as far as you want to go.

Could I just mark one single candidate with "1" and ignore the rest for example?

Sure. That means that if your candidate is eliminated or passes quota, your vote will be discarded rather than going to anyone else. If that's what you want, do that.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Breezer

Yes, you can give as few or as many preferences as you like. Don't put X's or ticks though, just numbers. Otherwise it's a spoiled vote.

MysticalSoul

bluefinger wrote: »

just give each politician a vote in order of preference. ie go into booth and mark one, two, three etc. in order of your choice. also if you want to get someone out, make sure you give them the lowest preference possible.

You do NOT have to vote for each of the candidates. If you only want to vote for your first choice, for instance, you can do that - it is up to you, how high up in preference you wish to mark the candidates in your area.

ixoy

Do you actually need the polling card or will legitimate ID suffice? Mine was posted to my family home and it's quicker for me to go directly to the polling station rather than home first.

Scofflaw

ixoy wrote: »

Do you actually need the polling card or will legitimate ID suffice? Mine was posted to my family home and it's quicker for me to go directly to the polling station rather than home first.

Legitimate ID - passport, driving licence, even a cheque book and a gas bill. I didn't get polling cards for several elections, but I've never had a problem.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

ixoy wrote: »

Do you actually need the polling card or will legitimate ID suffice? Mine was posted to my family home and it's quicker for me to go directly to the polling station rather than home first.

Polling cards are only reminders. Even with one you can still have to provide valid identification.

turgon

peasant wrote: »

And what's all this preference vote thingy?

Do you want to know who the voting system works?

Basically we have what is called "Proportional Representation using the Single Transferable Vote," or PR-STV for short. Wiki article is interesting, but a little deep!

Basically everyone has one vote. The idea of the system is to make sure the candidates elected represent any minorities or interest groups in the constituency.

Firstly there's a quota. This is a number representing the number of votes that each candidate must get before being elected. In Dail elections the quota hovers around 10,000 asfaik. Its lower for Locals and something like 80,000 for the Euros. The quota is calculated based on the total votes cast and the number of seats available.

Everyone's first preference votes (the person you put no 1 next to) are counted in the first round. Anyone who reaches the quota is deemed elected. Their excess votes (the amount of votes above the quota that they neednt have gotten) are then distributed in order of second preference.

If no one reaches the quota the candidate with the lowest number of votes is eliminated. Then all of their votes are distributed to the next preference.

This process is repeated and continues on until eventually all seats are filled.

Advantages:

• Your vote is rarely wasted. In the US, for example, if you vote for the Libertarian party your vote is effectively wasted as everyone knows they wont reach the majority. However in PR-STV you can vote for the guy down the road who wont get elected, because once hes eliminated your vote will still count for your next preference.
• Minorities are represented. So if one third of the constituency are socialists, they will be represented. In the British/American system, the other two thirds effectively quell the socialists (how bad )
• You can vote tactically. In the Euros I will be voting against Sinnot rather than for anyone in particular.

Breezer

turgon wrote:

Everyone's first preference votes (the person you put no 1 next to) are counted in the first round. Anyone who reaches the quota is deemed elected. Their excess votes (the amount of votes above the quota that they neednt have gotten) are then distributed in order of second preference.

Disadvantage: The reallocation of these extra votes is completely random. Say for argument's sake the quota was 100 and a candidate got 110 first preference votes. Obviously not every one of those votes will have the same second preference, but 10 of the 110 are simply pulled out at random and reallocated. It's a major flaw in the system IMO.

3DataModem

Yes the reason the flaw is there is because we wouldn't use the electronic voting machines which DID count all of the transfers accurately.

turgon

Indeed your right. yet he number of votes is proportional asfaik. They count all second preferences and then proportionally give out ballot papers. The actual ballot papers are random - which means that third preferences can change in recounts.

Seaned elections mark the exception - given the small electorate (1500) truer proportionality is achieved.

Assigning vote truely proportionally requires a serious amount of number crunching on a computer. I wrote a PHP (I know, not the most efficient) program to count votes like this that involved weightings. So each ballot has a weight (starting at 1) that is "diluted" when it helps elect someone. I didnt even try the situation where an eliminated candidates vote goes towards an elected candidate as this would mean re-assigning weights.

True proportionality was a promise with E-voting I think.

nesf

Breezer wrote: »

Disadvantage: The reallocation of these extra votes is completely random. Say for argument's sake the quota was 100 and a candidate got 110 first preference votes. Obviously not every one of those votes will have the same second preference, but 10 of the 110 are simply pulled out at random and reallocated. It's a major flaw in the system IMO.

The other main disadvantage (which can be an advantage depending on your point of view) is that PR systems very often (almost always in some countries) require coalition government because no one party normally gets a clear majority of seats whereas in a First Past the Post system clear majorities tend to get returned so the policies that the majority of people voted for get enacted, whereas in a PR system the wishes of the majority are mingled with minority policy positions. Majority Governments also tend to be more stable, and more likely to last a full term than a coalition Government.

Breezer

3DataModem wrote: »

Yes the reason the flaw is there is because we wouldn't use the electronic voting machines which DID count all of the transfers accurately.

I seem to remember that they could, but were deliberately programmed not to in order to mirror the traditional system. I stand to be corrected on that though.

turgon wrote:

Indeed your right. yet he number of votes is proportional asfaik. They count all second preferences and then proportionally give out ballot papers. The actual ballot papers are random - which means that third preferences can change in recounts.

Ah, I missed that subtlety. Thank you.

solice

Do I have to put in numbers or roman numerals? Can I not for instance put in dots or images, a circle for my 1st preference, an "L" for my 2nd preference, a triangle for my 3rd, a square for my 4th etc.

Just asking out of curiosity

Ziva

Of course you can put squares and triangles instead of numbers, but if you do it will be counted as a spolied vote:D

dilallio

Breezer wrote: »

Disadvantage: The reallocation of these extra votes is completely random. Say for argument's sake the quota was 100 and a candidate got 110 first preference votes. Obviously not every one of those votes will have the same second preference, but 10 of the 110 are simply pulled out at random and reallocated. It's a major flaw in the system IMO.

One question - if the reallocation of the extra votes is random, how is it in situations where there is a recount, the results are frequently so close to the original? How they chose these extra votes has always puzzled me.

solice

dilallio wrote: »

One question - if the reallocation of the extra votes is random, how is it in situations where there is a recount, the results are frequently so close to the original? How they chose these extra votes has always puzzled me.

Maybe this is the human aspect of it, people tend to vote along party lines...all people that vote #1 for FG are likely to give #2 to FG or Labor, not FF. Likewise if you vote #1 for SF you are likely to give #2 to another sociaist or even FF but more than likely not FG.

From my experience, very few people vote for people throughout the political spectrum.

Mr Benevolent

Sh!te. I put in preference 1 and 2... and X'd out the rest. Is that a spoiled vote?

turgon

Depends on the counter id say. Im mean, it would be preyty clear to me what you were trying to do, but they might have to follow uber-strict guidlines.

Our man in Havana

Votes like that are removed to be adjudicated by the returning officer.

pigeonbutler

dilallio wrote: »

One question - if the reallocation of the extra votes is random, how is it in situations where there is a recount, the results are frequently so close to the original? How they chose these extra votes has always puzzled me.

Because a recount doesn't involve randomising all the votes and starting from scratch. The order of the ballot papers doesn't change unless errors are discovered. Instead each pile is simply checked to ensure it contains the number of votes its supposed to.

Pythia

Confab wrote: »

Sh!te. I put in preference 1 and 2... and X'd out the rest. Is that a spoiled vote?

Probably not, no. You have shown a clear preference for who you want to vote for. Votes like these will be separated and a decision will be made on them. If you had put ticks instead of x's, it probably wouldn't be allowed.

Any system which shows a clear preference will generally not be considered spoiled. ie dot, dot dot, dot dot dot, etc.

Raiser

turgon wrote: »

You can vote tactically. In the Euros I will be voting against Kaathy Sinnott rather than for anyone in particular.

How do you vote tactically against the person you'd be most horrified to see get the seat?

sceptre

Pythia's got it to a t there. The simplest way of casting your vote is to do the "proper" thing - run your preferences from 1 up in preferential order. Those are the papers that get counted without a second look.

However, for returning officers the yardstick is expression of a clear preference. Put an X in one box and ignore the rest and that's counted as a number one preference. That's the simplest form of divergence from the preferred method and the easiest to ascertain a clear preference.

It can get a bit more murky after that but again as long as a preference can be definitely demonstrated you're definitely OK. Putting a series of ascending dots is just acting the mickey but assuming that the RO spots your clear preference you're probably OK.

Putting a 1 and 2 and then putting an X in the other boxes will be regarded as a clear preference for 1 and 2 with the voter being paranoid or careful that no-one else changes their vote.

I've never been involved in statutory Irish elections in any capacity but I've acted as a returning officer in students' union elections, following the common sense approach there. Note that putting a smiley face in one box and an X in another is not something that can be regarded as expressing a clear preference as it's open to interpretation (and I've seen far wackier ones where the voter may actually have thought they were expressing a preference that no-one could interpret with 100% certainty regardless of how much common sense they were invoking). Nothing worse than someone who makes a protest statement that only they can read:)

Cool Mo D

Raiser wrote: »

How do you vote tactically against the person you'd be most horrified to see get the seat?

Our system eliminates nearly all need for tactics on the part of the voter, as you get to rank every single candidate in order. The only situation I can see it might be helpful is if you want someone elected for the final seat in the constituency who isn't your actual favourite candidate, (say, the person who is competing for the last seat with your most hated candidate), and they are relying disproportionately on transfers, with a low amount of first preferences likely. Then you would vote them first, even if they were not your favourite candidate, to prevent them from being eliminated early, so they will still be in place to challenge your most hated candidate.

Not all that likely in reality

Breezer

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Our system eliminates nearly all need for tactics on the part of the voter, as you get to rank every single candidate in order. The only situation I can see it might be helpful is if you want someone elected for the final seat in the constituency who isn't your actual favourite candidate, (say, the person who is competing for the last seat with your most hated candidate), and they are relying disproportionately on transfers, with a low amount of first preferences likely. Then you would vote them first, even if they were not your favourite candidate, to prevent them from being eliminated early, so they will still be in place to challenge your most hated candidate.

Not all that likely in reality

Actually I've heard quite a few people talking about being in this situation regarding the Euro vote in Dublin. Mostly FG people who want neither Ryan nor MLM in there, and have voted tactically for Higgins.