If you don't vote today people!

Kevster

I have the right to vote but didn't exercise it. I have lost faith in democracy over the past few years. My scepticism has been heightened immensely recently by the scandal over in the UK regarding expense-claims. I see politicians as liars.

... ...that said, OP, you will be happy to hear that I won't be complaining about whoever gets elected. Why? - because I don't give a damn who gets elected. Vote Mr. Blobby or Tinky-****in'-Winky in and they'd probably do a better job than the current ****.

ninty9er

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Ninty9er i doubt you were very popular over the last week knocking on peoples doors!! I'm a closet one...you openly wear the t-shirt!

Actually lastnight in "Merc-for-the-badge-not-the-car" land (civil servant and teacher country) in Monaleen was the worst. Had about 15 out of 100 argue with me. And you know me, when I know they're wrong I'm like a dog with a bone! There were no votes to be lost by it anyway! Most of those people never voted FF in the first place.

DeVore

Voting or not has no impact on my right to freedom of speech, ergo I am "allowed" to complain even if I didnt vote.

If you're counter argument to that is "ah yes, but I dont have to listen to you" then let me point this:

An idea is not responsible for the person expressing it. If I expressed a "complaint" about something, are you saying you will accord that a different "truthiness"* then if it comes from someone who did vote?

eg: if I say "The taxes in this country are too high", will you deny that because it comes from someone who didnt vote but accept it from someone who did?

Truth is not subjective about who speaks it.


ergo: Neither the validity of a complaint nor the right to make it are affected by whether the speaker voted or not.

Additionally, if you say "I dont have to listen to you"... well, you didnt have to listen to me yesterday either...

DeV.
*to quote Mr Bush.

TheInquisitor

DeVore wrote: »

Voting or not has no impact on my right to freedom of speech, ergo I am "allowed" to complain even if I didnt vote.

If you're counter argument to that is "ah yes, but I dont have to listen to you" then let me point this:

An idea is not responsible for the person expressing it. If I expressed a "complaint" about something, are you saying you will accord that a different "truthiness"* then if it comes from someone who did vote?

eg: if I say "The taxes in this country are too high", will you deny that because it comes from someone who didnt vote but accept it from someone who did?

Truth is not subjective about who speaks it.


ergo: Neither the validity of a complaint nor the right to make it are affected by whether the speaker voted or not.

Additionally, if you say "I dont have to listen to you"... well, you didnt have to listen to me yesterday either...

DeV.
*to quote Mr Bush.

Yes but at least i have a reason not to listen to you now. You have a responsibility to vote

HAPPYGIRL

DeVore wrote: »

Voting or not has no impact on my right to freedom of speech, ergo I am "allowed" to complain even if I didnt vote.

If you're counter argument to that is "ah yes, but I dont have to listen to you" then let me point this:

An idea is not responsible for the person expressing it. If I expressed a "complaint" about something, are you saying you will accord that a different "truthiness"* then if it comes from someone who did vote?

eg: if I say "The taxes in this country are too high", will you deny that because it comes from someone who didnt vote but accept it from someone who did?

Truth is not subjective about who speaks it.


ergo: Neither the validity of a complaint nor the right to make it are affected by whether the speaker voted or not.

Additionally, if you say "I dont have to listen to you"... well, you didnt have to listen to me yesterday either...

DeV.
*to quote Mr Bush.

Well if you feel strongly enough to complain then surely you would have gotten off your ass and voted.

People who feel strongly about freedom of speech must surely hold the right to vote in high regard.

If someone resents high taxes, as per your example, then surely they can find a candidate with similar beliefs and vote for them.

To answer your question then yes someone who voted has a more valid reason for complaint then someone who didn't. Because at least they used their voice and tried to get a public representative elected who just might be able to make a difference.

(btw -1 for quoting Mr Bush, no matter how apt. )

H_2_Da_Izzo

Apathy is the what is scourging people when it comes to politics, especially young people. Most of my friends either couldn't be bothered (their words) to vote or made out that all politicians are crooks anyway.

Politics has become synonymous with brown envelopes, over the top election campagins, incessant satire, the OBAWMA brand and general mistrust of politicians. The image has to be rectified.

More of the general public needs to get involved in politics and have more of a say on what is going on at a local level. Most definitely young people need to be more informed about what politics is actually about.
Write letters to local TDs and councillors, get involved in your local residential committee or parish council, attend local authority meetings.

This is OUR society, not THEIRS. (whoever THEY are because most people can't even name a local councillor)

Like most things in life people take as much as they can and give little in return. Let someone else do the work and let them be blamed when things start to go wrong. That's the mentality.

DeVore

Sorry, I am NOT arguing that it is ok to not vote.


This thread started off saying "if you dont vote you have no right to complain".

I believe I have just shown that "not voting" has no impact on your "right to complain", and additionally that it also has no impact on that validity of that complaint.

Everything else is simply your personal biases and emotive conjecture playing tricks on your logic.

DeV.

DeVore

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Yes but at least i have a reason not to listen to you now. You have a responsibility to vote

Your personal, capricious, reason not to listen to any complaint I might make, has no bearing whatsoever on the OP's point.

I'm just as entitled to complain and my complaint is just as likely to be valid. Whether you choose to listen to it or not for completely spurious reasons is totally beside the point.



DeV.

DeVore

HAPPYGIRL wrote: »

Well if you feel strongly enough to complain then surely you would have gotten off your ass and voted.

People who feel strongly about freedom of speech must surely hold the right to vote in high regard.

So?

How is that in any way related to the statement "if you dont vote you have no right to complain".

I'm at a loss as to why you wrote that. At best you might be making a claim that the probability of the existance of such a person (a non-voting complainer) is low. Thats about the best I can come up with. Sorry

If someone resents high taxes, as per your example, then surely they can find a candidate with similar beliefs and vote for them.

To answer your question then yes someone who voted has a more valid reason for complaint then someone who didn't. Because at least they used their voice and tried to get a public representative elected who just might be able to make a difference.

By that logic anyone who actually VOTED for that candidate has even less "right" to complain. (I notice you softened it to "valid reason for complaint".... previously it was "no right" but I'll let it slide).

However, I'm again suprised that my freedom of speech or any moral claim to use it, is dependant on whether I voted or not. When did they become joined?


DeV.

DeVore

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Just so we dont lose sight of it, that was the first post in this thread.

Macros42 wrote: »

I agree completely. If you don't vote you lose the right to complain about the outcome.

and that was the second.

Both, to me, are ludicrous statements without a shred of logic behind them.

DeV.

cooker3

amacachi wrote: »

Everyone should vote, even people who don't know anything about politics and are just voting randomly. That's proper democracy.

Totally disagree. I much rather someone admit they don't know the candidates and or the issues and not vote then spazz picking someone when they know nothing about them.

sceptre

My view about the right of people to complain hasn't changed since I commented on it in a different thread seven days ago

sceptre wrote: »

Do you have a right to complain if you don't vote? Of course you do. Those who choose not to vote aren't making the effort that results in their most definable opinion on who represents them being counted but democracy is far more than merely voting. Making your opinion explicitly known in public is one of the better things that democracy gives us. Yes, I'm aware that this doesn't just apply to democracies but it's far easier to do in a democratic system. One may place less emphasis on the opinion of another if they didn't take the time to cast their vote and of course that's one's right as a citizen or an inhabitant because having an opinion on someone else's vote (or lack of one) is part of democracy too.

It's worth remembering that some people can't vote. If you're an EU citizen and you're living here less than six months you can't even vote in the Eu elections. Again, perhaps their opinion isn't worth as much as they don't have the experience of the country but their opinions are worth more than nothing. Perhaps someone is away on holidays and doesn't vote. It's a perfect excuse but again, someone who does that didn't vote. People under 18 can't vote (and whether they should be allowed to or not isn't relevant to the core issue here) but they have as much a right to complain as anyone else.

You can place greater or lesser emphasis on the opinion or complaint of someone who does or doesn't vote, who is or isn't within the tax net, is permanently or temporarily resident here, who takes part in their community or chooses not to. But does every inhabitant have an inherent right to complain merely by reason of their inhabitance or existence? Of course they do.

HAPPYGIRL

DeVore wrote: »

So?

How is that in any way related to the statement "if you dont vote you have no right to complain".

I'm at a loss as to why you wrote that. At best you might be making a claim that the probability of the existance of such a person (a non-voting complainer) is low. Thats about the best I can come up with. Sorry

We are actually talking about two very different things here. I had quoted your last post where you were talking about the right to complain.

Not voting doesn't take away your basic right to free speech, but it does make your arguement less valid. In fact why would anyone not vote and then complain afterwards. It makes no sense to me.

However, I'm again suprised that my freedom of speech or any moral claim to use it, is dependant on whether I voted or not. When did they become joined?

I never said they had become joined.
Are you talking about freedom of speech in general terms or are you talking about the right to complain about political issues?

Basically my point was if you are interested enough in politics to voice your disapproval then surely you should be interested enough to vote.

SkepticOne

This thread is getting a little bogged down in the issue of the legal right to complain which of course you have whether or not you vote.

However the OP said:

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

I think it is fairly clear that this applies to those who could have voted but simply could not be bothered, not those who were not eligible to vote or who were out of the country.

I would agree with the basic point that if you choose not to exercise the bit of power you have been given to influence something, you can't then reasonably the next day complain that the decision does not suit you. You had your chance but did not take it.

Diggy78

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Yes but at least i have a reason not to listen to you now. You have a responsibility to vote

A responsibility to vote?? The most ridiculous overused comment. Voting without a proper understanding and for the sake of voting is highly irresponsible in my eyes. Just because you had it drummed into you that it's your responsibility does not make it right.
Of course I'd wish that every voter comes armed with full information and can make clear choices, whatever the result, but this is not the case. The people who vote because they think it is their responsibility but have no idea are a lot worse than those who do not vote at all.

Cunning Alias

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would agree with the basic point that if you choose not to exercise the bit of power you have been given to influence something, you can't then reasonably the next day complain that the decision does not suit you. You had your chance but did not take it.

This is pure logic but from what I have seen, most people wont accept it. I voted for the first time yesterday and I based my votes on my opinions of the individuals I met, and their answers to the questions I had.

Was out on the piss earlier tonight and when I told my mates who I voted for, they instantly replied with stuff like "Why the **** did you vote for them". These same people didn't vote. I dont see how they should have any right to judge my voting choice considering they weren't bothered doing it themselves. If they felt that strongly about one party, why didn't they vote?

I did research into the people I voted for and im happy with my choices. They arent the popular choices for people my age in my area but im happy.

Joey the lips

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Its the moronic nature of the Irish. We want to legalise drugs prostitution and gay adoption but could not be [EMAIL="ar@ed"]ar@ed[/EMAIL] to get out and vote when it matters.

As for your family friend she prob thinks your hostile now... Its another irish trait. Ask them something that makes sense and your either raising your voice or being hostile. They que the tears.

amacachi

cooker3 wrote: »

Totally disagree. I much rather someone admit they don't know the candidates and or the issues and not vote then spazz picking someone when they know nothing about them.

I was being sarcastic.

Serenity Now!

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Don't bother complaining about anything that goes wrong in the future. There's a friend of the family who always complains about the government so i always ask did she vote, which shuts her up because she never does. Vote or shut up complaining about things!

Damn straight.

If you didn't exercise your right to vote then shut the f*** up.
You (the conveniently apathetic lazy hypocrite out there) have done nothing to influence anything on the running of the country be that at local, regional, national or European level.

DeVore

What will you do when you are faced with someones complaint and yet you dont know if they voted or not!!!???!

OMG!! YOU WONT KNOW IF ITS VALID OR NOT?? THE SKY WILL FALL!!! :rolleyes:


If I say "the health care system is screwed, Mary Harney doesnt know her arse from her elbow"... is that complaint more or less valid if I didnt vote??

Stop thinking about *me*.... start thinking about the statement as an entity itself.

DeV.

SkepticOne

DeVore wrote: »

Stop thinking about *me*.... start thinking about the statement as an entity itself.

But people are always going to take into account who is saying it. We are not talking about objective fact here but value judgements. You don't value Harney's contribution to the HSE. Fair enough, but who are you? Should I place the same weight on someone who did not bother to vote as opposed to say, someone who has campaigned for years for reform in that area?

Note that you have the right to voice an opinion in both cases.

DeVore

If I put something forward as a "statement of fact" then it should stand or fall on its own merit. If you feel it needs some form of context to make a "value judgement" then use your own experience.

eg: I say "Taxes are too high in this country".

you might say "No, I'm wealthy and have a good job, I think they are high but I dont think they are too high".

What you cant say is "because YOU said it, then no I dont think taxes are too high. If Mary over there, who votes, says it then yes I would agree".

Thats bonkers.

DeV.
ps: I consider running Boards to be a political act. One far more powerful and influential then my "vote" ever would be.

pps: we are not talking about someone who has "campaigned for years in an area", we are talking about someone who voted versus someone who didnt. The person who voted could very very easily be better informed of the two for example.

TheInquisitor

DeVore wrote: »

What you cant say is "because YOU said it, then no I dont think taxes are too high. If Mary over there, who votes, says it then yes I would agree".

I never said that i'd agree with Mary , but i would listen to her whether she's right or wrong at least she made the effort to change whatever she thought was wrong.

You didn't do anything so you don't deserve a moment of my time.

DeVore

There's quite a difference between saying "I wont listen to you" and "you shouldnt be allowed an opinion".

What and who you listen to on the basis of emotionally capricious reasoning is not my problem at all. I'm still perfectly entitled to my opinion and its validity is not prejudiced by my voting or not. If you dont want to hear it, stuff your fingers in your ears for all I care!

DeV.

TheInquisitor

DeVore wrote: »

There's quite a difference between saying "I wont listen to you" and "you shouldnt be allowed an opinion".

What and who you listen to on the basis of emotionally capricious reasoning is not my problem at all. I'm still perfectly entitled to my opinion and its validity is not prejudiced by my voting or not. If you dont want to hear it, stuff your fingers in your ears for all I care!

DeV.

You complain about things but make no effort to right whatever wrongs you deem there to be. That is just complete apathy and no you shouldn't have an opinion. If i didn't vote i wouldn't complain because i didn't even try to change things.

SkepticOne

DeVore wrote: »

If I put something forward as a "statement of fact" then it should stand or fall on its own merit. If you feel it needs some form of context to make a "value judgement" then use your own experience.

eg: I say "Taxes are too high in this country".

you might say "No, I'm wealthy and have a good job, I think they are high but I dont think they are too high".

What you cant say is "because YOU said it, then no I dont think taxes are too high. If Mary over there, who votes, says it then yes I would agree".

Thats bonkers.

But the statement "Taxes are too high" is not an objective fact. Too high for what purpose? Whether or not taxes are too high depends on who you are and what your goals are.

There are some who have argued that taxes need to rise in this country. I disagree with that but that is because my goals are different from the person arguing for higher taxes. There is no "correct" goal.

ps: I consider running Boards to be a political act. One far more powerful and influential then my "vote" ever would be.

pps: we are not talking about someone who has "campaigned for years in an area", we are talking about someone who voted versus someone who didnt. The person who voted could very very easily be better informed of the two for example.

I hope it is clear that "you" here is anyone who did not vote, not you specifically!

I think the thing about voting is that it is a tiny bit of power the ordinary citizen is legally granted. The government must respect that vote. If you feel strongly about something you should exercise this right first if possible.

What if it turned out that (hypothetically) everyone complaining about the current government on boards.ie did not bother to vote? I would suggest that people would be justified in saying that boards.ie is just full of whingers who's opinions don't carry much weight.

Running boards.ie is a political act in large part because those participating in discussions there can be bothered sufficiently to get out and vote.

johnnyskeleton

HAPPYGIRL wrote: »

If someone resents high taxes, as per your example, then surely they can find a candidate with similar beliefs and vote for them.

The problem is that Irish politicians either don't have any beliefs, or else they keep their beliefs well hidden.

I think taxes should be lowered & public spending should be cut dramatically. Which Irish politicians are advocating same?

FF - No
FG - No
Lab - No
Green - No
SF - No

All of the main parties advocate (assuming they advocate anything at all) keeping the taxes as they are and, if anything, increasing public spending.

phantom_lord

Serenity Now! wrote: »

If you didn't exercise your right to vote then shut the f*** up.
You (the conveniently apathetic lazy hypocrite out there) have done nothing to influence anything on the running of the country be that at local, regional, national or European level.

pretty sure that me voting wouldn't have made a difference either.

DeVore

Whether I vote or not has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on my right to voice a complaint or the likely validity of that complaint.

Not one person in this thread has shown me a counter to that statement.

DeV.

Orion

DeVore wrote: »

And that was the second.

Both, to me, are ludicrous statements without a shred of logic behind them.

DeV.

Read mine again DeV - I said that you forfeit the right to complain about the outcome. If you choose not to exercise your right to vote then complaining about who gets elected it hypocritical at the very least. I did not say that you lose your right to complain about decisions/policies - of course you don't. But tough **** if you feel hard done by because the wrong people are in power when you had the opportunity to help change that.

DeVore wrote: »

Whether I vote or not has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on my right to voice a complaint or the likely validity of that complaint.

Not one person in this thread has shown me a counter to that statement.

DeV.

No it doesn't. But you can't in all honesty complain about FF being in power if you didn't vote against them. Choosing not to vote (and it is a choice) is a tacit acceptance of the status quo. That's all I meant.