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Ganley looking good in Early Tallies
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This was a tough one for me. I don't like Libertas but I could not bring myself to vote for pro-Lisbon parties as it will just be claimed as a pro-lisbon vote. I doubt it'll make a difference as I'm in Meath.
I don't know whether to be pleased to see an anti-lisbon candidate getting support or uneasy at a party I don't like gaining support.
Just to add on this, we're having another referendum on Lisbon, Ganley or no Ganley. That's when you can vote 'No'. Any SF supporters should be very wary of this Tory Boy so beloved of the British right. Sometimes your enemys enemy is also your enemy.
Slightly OT, but is your signature line about the commission a joke? I think I saw someone say that Libertas are actually saying something along those lines?
Last year 'Vote no to Lisbon or we lose our commissioner', this year it's 'Vote no to Lisbon or we keep on all these useless commissioners'!?
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That's a fair point and I do agree I'd feel uneasy. but still would it be evidence that people supported the treaty by electing pro-treaty parties? Something I'm not 100% comfortable with.Just on a point of fact, abeit off topic and noone wants another thread on Lisbon anyway, the fact that people elected pro-Lisbon politicians was never used as a reason to NOT hold a referendum, just as a relevant piece of evidence that they weren't against Lisbon. The only argument for not holding a referendum that appeared on these boards was because each member state has the right to define their own procedures. End of.
The point I was trying to make was regarding the fact that in 2 years Lisbon will be gone, one way or another (be it ratified or binned), and Ganley will still be in Europe. Whatever way you may feel about Lisbon you have to bear this in mind. If you don't like Libertas or Ganley, and if he does get in, you'll have to suffer him longer than Lisbon. Therefore you should be concerned.
I'm just suggesting it from this quote,
"just as a relevant piece of evidence that they weren't against Lisbon."
I also agree on not getting into a pro/con debate again for now
PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »Just to add on this, we're having another referendum on Lisbon, Ganley or no Ganley. That's when you can vote 'No'. Any SF supporters should be very wary of this Tory Boy so beloved of the British right. Sometimes your enemys enemy is also your enemy.
Slightly OT, but is your signature line about the commission a joke? I think I saw someone say that Libertas are actually saying something along those lines?
Last year 'Vote no to Lisbon or we lose our commissioner', this year it's 'Vote no to Lisbon or we keep on all these useless commissioners'!?
It's quite tongue in cheek. Though before the last vote I actually agreed with the yes side by the end that the commission needed to be reduced. Now, by fluke voting for lisbon will keep it bloated.
But yes I picked that issue because of the strange situation it has us in where the Yes side now are by a side-effect looking to keep "our" (In commas for a reason) commissioner while a no side technically could be looking to keep the nice result. Again, somewhat tongue in cheek.
Edit - also while I have found myself voting SF today I am not a SF supporter in that I vote for the party I have preference for at the time and find that none represent my views well. It's generally the least bad I vote for.0 -
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I have nothing but admiration for any man that has achieved so much in his business career & fairly single handedly opened alot of people's eyes regarding the pitfalls of the Lisbon treaty (although there are many good things in this draft of the Lisbon treaty).
Ever since his success with the referendum - Paddy the Irishman has resorted to type i.e. knock the lad that's done well & look for dirt so that we can assasinate him/her.
We should all be proud of what he has achieved & lets respect respect democracy i.e. the Irish people have spoken.
Oh, has Jim Higgins the the rest of our mighty M.E.P's (yeah these people we see only every 5 years) revealed their annual expenses yet??
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I have nothing but admiration for any man that has achieved so much in his business career & fairly single handedly opened alot of people's eyes regarding the pitfalls of the Lisbon treaty (although there are many good things in this draft of the Lisbon treaty).
Ever since his success with the referendum - Paddy the Irishman has resorted to type i.e. knock the lad that's done well & look for dirt so that we can assasinate him/her.
We should all be proud of what he has achieved & lets respect respect democracy i.e. the Irish people have spoken.
Oh, has Jim Higgins the the rest of our mighty M.E.P's (yeah these people we see only every 5 years) revealed their annual expenses yet??
The 'pitfalls' he identified were either outright fantasy, or not in Lisbon. He's a bullsh*t artist. I have no respect for charlatans that mislead people.
Hopefully he'll not be elected and he'll crawl back into whatever hole he squirmed out of.0 -
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traveled across country today
spotted "new party, fresh direction" libertas poster near Dublin, nearly crashed the car
Sounds like what this country needs at the mo - a fresh direction, away from the cosy cartells, political directorships, galway races tent, failed financial regulation, a "world class health system", political corruption (tribunals),a government that has not got a clue how to get us out of their mess etc etc
Not saying it's Libertas but we certainly need something new?0 -
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Democracy? Okay.Ganley has exposed the un-democratic nature of the EU <...>
Statement no. 1: Ganley is against the Treaty of Lisbon.
Agree? Sure you do.
Statement no. 2: The Treaty of Lisbon increases the level of democracy in the EU.
Argumentation:
1. The Treaty of Lisbon will enable EU citizens to participate in the EU's law designing process through petition system. This was not possible earlier.
2. It is oftenly said that EU lacks of democracy, because the only its directly by voters elected institution, EP, has too little powers. So the Treaty of Lisbon increases those powers:
Source.The new treaty has boosted its [EP] powers as regards lawmaking, the EU budget and approval of international agreements.
Source (you will find more there).The members of the European Parliament are elected by direct universal suffrage every five years to represent the citizens of the member countries. Parliament's powers have been gradually extended with every new treaty. The Treaty of Lisbon is no exception, giving more powers in relation to lawmaking, budget and international agreements.
Lawmaking: the 'co-decision procedure' (renamed 'ordinary legislative procedure') has been extended to several new fields. This means that Parliament now has the same degree of lawmaking power as the Council in some areas where it used to be merely consulted or not involved at all. These areas include legal immigration, penal judicial cooperation (Eurojust, crime prevention, alignment of prison standards, offences and penalties), police cooperation (Europol) and some aspects of trade policy and agriculture. From now on, then, Parliament will have a role to play in almost all lawmaking.
Budget: the new treaty confirms the established practice of working with a multiannual financial framework, which Parliament will have to approve in future. It also abolishes the current distinction between 'compulsory' expenditure (like direct income support to farmers) and 'non-compulsory' expenditure, with the result that Parliament and the Council will determine all expenditure together. This innovation creates a new balance between the two institutions when approving the EU's budget.
International agreements: under the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Parliament's assent will be required for all international agreements in fields governed by the ordinary legislative procedure.
Feel free to watch this video, The EU Parliament and the Traty of Lisbon:
Therefore we can make a simple conclusion: if you want to say Yes to democracy, you will say Yes to Lisbon.
But it seems that Ganley does not care about democracy at all, further more, while acting against this treaty he prevents bringing more democracy :rolleyes:
I was deleted from Politics.ie, but I don't know why. I was defending the treaty there, but no unethical posts were writen. Maybe because I am not from Ireland?The guy who runs Politics.ie is the Libertas campaign manager (or similar title).
DeV.
Or... is this their lack of democracy. I wasn't allowed to register in the UKIP forum, because of my nickname, which has included EU in it (nothing unethical, again).
In this context, people (or organizations) who talk a lot about democracy does not look definable by this definition by themselves.Examples? How about this one - The Irish, Dutch (or was it the Danes?) and French PEOPLE voted NO to Lisbon, but looks like the euro-elite will shove it down our throats anyway, just like they did in the Nice. Need any more?
I won't comment on France and the Netherlands, because this is your mistake of a fact, but Irelanders will vote again because they will vote for the new conditions of the treaty. I'm referring to the guarantees Ireland will get. Another point for voting again would be themajor argument in the previous referendum - lack of knowledge about the treaty. I don't think this is the sensible way to shape the future of half a billion EU citizens.0 -
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You know, usual stuff. Coming and saying anything what's on your mind, arguments are not necessarythe first is window dressing nonsense.
But let me tell you again:
Source.European citizens can <...> take part in the political process of the EU. <...> the citizens' initiative, whereby one million citizens, from any number of member countries, will be able to ask the Commission to present a proposal in any of the EU's areas of responsibility. The practical details of this initiative will be worked out once the Treaty of Lisbon takes effect.
The new treaty also recognises the importance of consultation and dialogue with associations, civil society, workers and employers, churches and other non-denominational organisations.
No matter, if I don't agree with you, there is no statement, that contradicts me - the Treaty of Lisbon will increase powers of EP. A fact that means more democracy.the second is even scarier. in general the increase in democracy at european parliament level entails a reduction in democracy at the national level. The ep gets about 35% voter turnout because people dont care about that corrupt parliament and even then the 35% are voting locally - i.e. for Fine Gael not knowing the party that FG aligns with in the EP, the leader of that party, or it's policies. nor do papers cover that corrupt tower of babel. there is no transparency, accountability, or light shone on the EP. it needs to go. run europe with a council of ministers from the accountable parliaments.
Easy and simple 0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUF5t1kRlI
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