Ganley looking good in Early Tallies

K-9

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ganley 4th in the tallies , I believe that is final or near final .

1 2 and 3 are Harkin and Gallagher and Higgins in that order .

Ganley did well in Galway but not in the northern end of the constituency . He topped the poll in certain parts of the city where his campaign was racist, eg Ballybane .

Think he did reasonably ok in the Northern areas for little presence. I think he picked up a fair few Doherty voters who didn't vote McLochlainn. It will be tight and may come down to how Harkins/Labour transfers go. Harkin and Higgins are consistent enough to get through, so it comes down to FF Vs. Libertas.

RandomName2

The EU Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are not the same.

2+2 = 5

And any other factoid of your choice.

Could people please divorce their support of lisbon from character assassination? Look, I know you are eager and ardent about getting out to vote again (and, who knows, maybe for a third time) but the fact that a party has policies you don't agree with...

Oh yeah, apparently they have no policies. I should save my breath.... :pac:

K-9

RandomName2 wrote: »

The EU Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are not the same.

2+2 = 5

And any other factoid of your choice.

Could people please divorce their support of lisbon from character assassination? Look, I know you are eager and ardent about getting out to vote again (and, who knows, maybe for a third time) but the fact that a party has policies you don't agree with...

Oh yeah, apparently they have no policies. I should save my breath.... :pac:

OK, Just direct us to each parties EU policies.

Go on, simple request? Yes?

asdasd

the Treaty of Lisbon will increase powers of EP. A fact that means more democracy.

A parliament which operate in effective secrecy , where voters dont even know the leaders or names of the main parties is a sham. increasing its powers reduces the powers of the proper parliaments so democracy is reduced.

easy to understand.

ShooterSF

USE wrote: »

You know, usual stuff. Coming and saying anything what's on your mind, arguments are not necessary

But let me tell you again:

Source.


No matter, if I don't agree with you, there is no statement, that contradicts me - the Treaty of Lisbon will increase powers of EP. A fact that means more democracy.

Easy and simple

Gah. I really wanted to resist discussing it but do you think the citizen's initiative is a good thing?

It'll either be "taken into consideration" and then ignored. Or large cult groups like the catholic church will take advantage of it.

USE

K-9 wrote: »

OK, Just direct us to each parties EU policies.

Go on, simple request? Yes?

Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour.

asdasd wrote: »

A parliament which operate in effective secrecy , where voters dont even know the leaders or names of the main parties is a sham.

EPP–ED - Joseph Daul;
PES (party) - Poul Nyrup Rasmussen;
ALDE is composed of ELDR (Annemie Neyts-Uyttebroeck) and EDP (François Bayrou and Francesco Rutelli);
UEN - (Brian Crowley and Cristiana Muscardini);
Greens–EFA is composed of European Green Party (Ulrike Lunacek and Philippe Lamberts) and European Free Alliance (Nelly Maes);
EUL-NGL - Alonso José Puerta and Francis Wurtz;
ID - Nigel Farage and Hanne Dahl.

Is that a secret?

ShooterSF wrote: »

Gah. I really wanted to resist discussing it but do you think the citizen's initiative is a good thing?

I must admit, I'm really shocked by this question.

Scofflaw

asdasd wrote: »

A parliament which operate in effective secrecy , where voters dont even know the leaders or names of the main parties is a sham. increasing its powers reduces the powers of the proper parliaments so democracy is reduced.

easy to understand.

Hard to understand, really. The Parliament's work is so available online the greatest danger is being overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information. If people have no idea who they are or what they do it's largely because they don't care to find out. That, in turn, is because they don't think it's important, and so on, in a vicious circle.

Still, how many people know how their TD votes?

cordially,
Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

It'll either be "taken into consideration" and then ignored. Or large cult groups like the catholic church will take advantage of it.

Thats a good question, personnally I expect it to be used by unions across the EU in similar work enviroments.

But on it being ignored/too powerful, as far as I know the Commission is only required to give a full response to the request. As far as that means it will require them to give a reason for their denial of petition if they turn it down. So it would be impossible for them to simply ignore any petition. Whether their reason though is simple *spin*is problematic and I do not know if the citizens iniative gives any powers to follow up on any sich responses in the european courts or parliament.

On too much power, like I said the Commission is only required to respond to the petition, meaning if any groups are pushing policies, like for example the catholic church trying to impose a blanket no civil partnerships across the EU, then the commission will be able to deny the petition using the treaty, european courts, national laws as justification.


So the power is slightly tipped against the initiative, so chances of being too powerful are slim, but the required response is still something worth having because on some issues, especially worker's rights etc it would be very difficult to for the commission to *spin* there way out if the initiative was well processed (i.e checked it didnt cross any prior amendments or national laws) and was a somewhat practical application.

I guess it is asking alot to pre-emptively predict topics that would be *spinned* but its not impossible.

K-9

USE wrote: »

Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour.

Libertas?
PS. I did specifically mention policies!

USE

K-9 wrote: »

Libertas?
PS. I did specifically mention policies!

Oh, I understand, my bad. Can't help you then

ShooterSF

USE wrote: »

I must admit, I'm really shocked by this question.

Hmm. I did offer reasons to be skeptic atleast in my mind.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Thats a good question, personnally I expect it to be used by unions across the EU in similar work enviroments.

But on it being ignored/too powerful, as far as I know the Commission is only required to give a full response to the request. As far as that means it will require them to give a reason for their denial of petition if they turn it down. So it would be impossible for them to simply ignore any petition. Whether their reason though is simple *spin*is problematic and I do not know if the citizens iniative gives any powers to follow up on any sich responses in the european courts or parliament.

On too much power, like I said the Commission is only required to respond to the petition, meaning if any groups are pushing policies, like for example the catholic church trying to impose a blanket no civil partnerships across the EU, then the commission will be able to deny the petition using the treaty, european courts, national laws as justification.


So the power is slightly tipped against the initiative, so chances of being too powerful are slim, but the required response is still something worth having because on some issues, especially worker's rights etc it would be very difficult to for the commission to *spin* there way out if the initiative was well processed (i.e checked it didnt cross any prior amendments or national laws) and was a somewhat practical application.

I guess it is asking alot to pre-emptively predict topics that would be *spinned* but its not impossible.

Good point. Personally I'm leaning towards the idea that it's a nice thought in theory but I'm confident I'll never see anything actually passed in to laws from it. Maybe that's my Irish skeptic attitude.
I don't for one second see it as a dangerous or disasterous idea. In my opinion it's a nothing idea.
Any ideas good enough to get into law won't need a petition and any that doesn't have the support of the EP before a petition won't get in...

PopeBuckfastXVI

I'm with Shooter on the citizens initiative. I'm glad that it's not too powerful, 1m citizens is a fraction of a percent of the number of people in the EU. No way should that amount of people be able to have any significant influence.

BlitzKrieg

Any ideas good enough to get into law won't need a petition and any that doesn't have the support of the EP before a petition won't get in...

True I would agree to some extent, but I would be a bit more hopeful then yourself (less of an irish skeptic...:D)

I think firstly it will bring awareness, if issues are brought before the EU, while they do not need to be acted on, they cannot be ignored, you might consider it as almost nothing effect, but I woiuld say that well thought out petition can put specific elements of the EU in difficult positions which while they wont directly go on to to create laws will remain as influence over the process of other laws (consider that at the moment laws do not directly go from commission to national parliaments, but end up going back and forth with changes and additions via parliament and the council, putting the citizens iniative in there will work as justification for EP members to demand specific changes to upcoming amendments.) This is why I think the PES more then any other group in the parliament will find the citizens iniative useful if they generate the support from the Unions. I expect the iniative to work with the parliament rather then against it or seperate from it.

Secondly I would think some issues might not be considered by parliament as individually country by country there could be issues not big enough to warrant the interest of MEP's to take action. For example look at spark's thread to the meps about the firearms laws in Ireland, the responses he got showed most of them didnt even knew the issue existed. There could be thousands of similar sports/work enviroments/social groups across the EU that will again bring awareness to the EU on their issues. We assume too much that any use of the initiative would be for large issues and dynamic world changing laws which would automatically get a defensive and cautious response from the commission unwilling to risk so much change. But These would be issues that for the most part me and you might not consider important but to someone they are, it is an extension of democracy.

Scofflaw

ShooterSF wrote: »

Good point. Personally I'm leaning towards the idea that it's a nice thought in theory but I'm confident I'll never see anything actually passed in to laws from it. Maybe that's my Irish skeptic attitude.
I don't for one second see it as a dangerous or disasterous idea. In my opinion it's a nothing idea.
Any ideas good enough to get into law won't need a petition and any that doesn't have the support of the EP before a petition won't get in...

Technically, it's exactly as much as the other EU institutions get. The Commission does have the sole right of initiation, so all the other institutions also have to ask the Commission to initiate legislation they'd like to see.

There's no a priori reason why the petitions would be ignored - there's nothing more to the assumption than cynicism. Opposed to that cynicism there's the point that they've put it in the treaty, they know that they won't get a 'tame' petition because it requires a million petitioners, and likewise any petition will have a lot of publicity. If they planned on ignoring the petitions, therefore, it would have been a lot safer to leave it out entirely.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

If they planned on ignoring the petitions, therefore, it would have been a lot safer to leave it out entirely.

or set the requirement alot higher.

1 million out of 350 million + possible signatures is surprisingly low. Which I feel gives strength to my belief it will predominantly benefit issues that are nationally insignificant, but across the EU easily support over a million signatures.

edanto

This thread on Ganley putting in a good showing has pulled up a wide variety of subjects. I saw the man debate Lisbon with Pat Rabitte and whilst Ganley made popular appeals to agreeable notions, on the specifics he was just disingenuous. For example he said that Lisbon made the EU more undemocratic and said how the voting weights were being changed on one EU approval level but NEGLECTED TO MENTION how other changes at a different level made the EU MORE demcratic using the same voting measure. That made me wonder about his motivations and look into where he gets his money.

He is funded by American dollars that want a weakened EU. I don't trust him.

evercloserunion

asdasd wrote: »

A parliament which operate in effective secrecy , where voters dont even know the leaders or names of the main parties is a sham. increasing its powers reduces the powers of the proper parliaments so democracy is reduced.

easy to understand.

When we talk about Lisbon strengthening the powers of the EP, we mean it strengthens the powers of the EP as against the other institutions of the EU, ie the Council and the Commission. This does increase democracy in the EU, as the EP is the most democratic institution of the EU and after Lisbon it has a more important role in the functioning of the EU.

is_that_so

North West is still sorting and it looks like it'll be a very long day. First count results expected at 10.00 tonight. Partial tallies with a very strong health warning are Harkin on 18%, Higgins on 16%, Ganley on 14.3%, Gallagher on 13%.

Dr. Baltar

Watching RTÉ at the moment and they're saying that exit polls show Ganley in 4th place but with only a small possibility of him gaining a seat.
At the same time, it is very early.

Villain

Those Exit Polls have a margin of error of 3.5% so big health warning on them, SF transfers could give him a lift from Lisbon No Voters

Our man in Havana

I think RTÉ's exit poll is meaningless at this stage. Ganley is understated in their poll.

Oafley Jones

Villain wrote: »

Those Exit Polls have a margin of error of 3.5% so big health warning on them, SF transfers could give him a lift from Lisbon No Voters

The vast majority of SF voters would never vote for Ganley, given his military connections, accent and the fact that he dresses like a peer of the realm.

asdasd

We have no idea on transfers to Ganley either. We cant assume anything. He may get a protest vote as a second preference. After all there are FG, FF, and labour voters who voted NO to Lisbon.

ShooterSF

Oafley Jones wrote: »

The vast majority of SF voters would never vote for Ganley, given his military connections, accent and the fact that he dresses like a peer of the realm.

I gave SF my first and libertas second on my ballot (in meath) for Europe. I don't like Libertas but Lisbon was a concern to me and I couldn't accept the idea of a pro-Lisbon MEP feeling I voted for them (obviously not me the person, but me the number).
Don't underestimate what awkward situation some anti-Lisbon voters are in.

Edit: Also lol on the military comment.

passive

ShooterSF wrote: »

Edit: Also lol on the military comment.

Should he have specified "not para-"?

also, it's a position they could easily find themselves out of if they properly follow 90% of the arguments on this forum, and reconsider their position...

ShooterSF

passive wrote: »

Should he have specified "not para-"?

I don't see why a Sinn Fein supporter would really care about someones military connections.

also, it's a position they could easily find themselves out of if they properly follow 90% of the arguments on this forum, and reconsider their position...

....in favour of the treaty, right? Let's not bother. This will be fruitless right now. Lets save us both the time and energy.

PopeBuckfastXVI

ShooterSF wrote: »

I don't see why a Sinn Fein supporter would really care about someones military connections.


....in favour of the treaty, right? Let's not bother. This will be fruitless right now. Lets save us both the time and energy.

Aye... round 2 is not for a couple of months

is_that_so

asdasd wrote: »

We have no idea on transfers to Ganley either. We cant assume anything. He may get a protest vote as a second preference. After all there are FG, FF, and labour voters who voted NO to Lisbon.

There are but there are no guarantees that he'll get any anyway, at least not in large enough numbers. They would also have to be transfers from the 2nd FF/FG candidates to gain any benefit. His target has been Harkin and if she is too far ahead on the first preferences he will probably lose out. Rumours are that she will top the poll and scupper that possibility. She will pick up transfers from pretty much everywhere, especially Susan O'Keeffe, who should increase the Labour vote.

Higgins seems to be almost a cert so the next best then would be to have Gallagher close to him and hope that the second FF candidate is too far back. Even if Ganley appears to have done well in Donegal, Gallagher will have done an awful lot better. RTE's exit poll, in as much as it can be believed, has him at the top of the poll. If the FF vote management is good and the whole FF vote transfers Ganley can't really win. He's left hoping to get SF transfers and there are reports that some of these are non-transferable.

Oafley Jones

passive wrote: »

Should he have specified "not para-"?

also, it's a position they could easily find themselves out of if they properly follow 90% of the arguments on this forum, and reconsider their position...

Probably should have specified - I was mainly referring to Robin Matthews, the UK's libertas leader. Who is a retired Lt.Col in the British Army who served in NI.

Villain

Looks all over for Ganley now, Tallies have him well down