The hate for Obama

bobbyjoe

What about all the people who voted for Obama where is their voice. A small vocal minority are hijacking the thing with lies. Check out the videos of the teabagger "party" in Washington loads of them don't even know what they are against.

Also why do people think its been rushed? He's been talking about it since before he was elected. Don't recall townhall meeting for any of Bush's decisions. Obama should get onto those blue dogs and force it through without the republicans who have no interest in any reform.

Black Swan

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If you don't want to work hard then that is your problem.

I wonder if the thousands of laid-off employees in the below list didn't "want to work hard?" I also wonder if assuming the medical insurance premiums for many poses a serious hardship, or in many cases is not financially feasible while unemployed? I also wonder how many have dependent children that will have to go without medical insurance coverage while their breadwinner is unemployed?

FIRST QUARTER LAYOFFS 2009
Corporation/Layoff Date/Number of Employees Laidoff
National Semiconductor 03/11/2009 1,725
United Technologies 03/10/2009 18,000
McClatchy 03/05/2009 1,600
Marvell Technology 03/09/2009 850
General Dynamics 03/05/2009 1,200
IMI 03/04/2009 2,250
Monaco Coach 03/02/2009 2,000
HSBC 03/02/2009 6,100
RSA Insurance 02/26/2009 1,200
Nortel Networks 02/25/2009 3,200
Advantest Corp. 02/25/2009 1,200
Lonmin PLC 02/24/2009 5,500
Spansion Inc. 02/23/2009 3,000
Micron Technology Inc. 02/23/2009 2,000
Anglo American 02/20/2009 19,000
Embraer 02/19/2009 4,300
Avon Products 02/19/2009 2,500
Rockwood Holdings 02/18/2009 900
Goodyear Tire 02/18/2009 5,000
Smithfield Foods 02/17/2009 1,800
Pioneer 02/12/2009 10,000
ArcelorMittal 02/11/2009 9,000
GM 02/10/2009 10,000
UBS 02/10/2009 2,000
Qwest Communications International 02/10/2009 1,700
Nissan Motor 02/09/2009 20,000
Estee Lauder 02/05/2009 2,000
Time Warner Cable 02/04/2009 1,250
Panasonic 02/04/2009 15,000
Electronic Arts 02/03/2009 1,100
PNC Financial Services Group 02/03/2009 5,800
King Pharmaceuticals 02/03/2009 760
Liz Claiborne 02/03/2009 725
SAS AB 02/03/2009 9,000
Macy’s 02/02/2009 7,000
NEC 01/30/2009 20,000
Hitachi 01/30/2009 7,000
Eastman Kodak 01/29/2009 4,500
Bon-Ton Stores 01/29/2009 1,150
Black & Decker 01/29/2009 1,200
AstraZeneca 01/29/2009 7,400
Ford Motor Credit 01/28/2009 1,200
Starbucks 01/28/2009 6,700
Boeing 01/28/2009 10,000
Jabil Circuit 01/28/2009 3,000
SAP 01/28/2009 3,000
STMicroelectronics 01/28/2009 4,500
Corning 01/27/2009 3,500
Cooper Industries 01/27/2009 2,200
Clariant 01/27/2009 1,000
Texas Instruments 01/26/2009 3,400
Molex 01/26/2009 9,300
Caterpillar 01/26/2009 20,000
Home Depot 01/26/2009 7,000
Sprint Nextel 01/26/2009 8,000
Pfizer 01/26/2009 8,300
ING 01/26/2009 7,000
Philips Electronics 01/26/2009 6,000
Corus 01/26/2009 3,500
Harley-Davidson 01/23/2009 1,100
Microsoft 01/22/2009 5,000
Huntsman 01/22/2009 1,175
Intel 01/21/2009 6,000
UAL 01/21/2009 1,000
Eaton 01/20/2009 5,200
Bose 01/20/2009 1,000
Rohm & Haas 01/20/2009 900
Clear Channel 01/20/2009 1,850
ConocoPhillips 01/16/2009 1,300
Circuit City 01/16/2009 34,000
Pfizer 01/16/2009 3,200
AMD 01/16/2009 1,100
Hertz Global Holdings 01/16/2009 4,000
Wellpoint 01/16/2009 1,500
Saks 01/15/2009 1,100
MeadWestvaco 01/15/2009 2,000
Autodesk 01/15/2009 750
Motorola 01/14/2009 4,000
Barclays 01/14/2009 2,100
Neiman Marcus 01/13/2009 375
Cummins 01/13/2009 800
Seagate Technology 01/12/2009 800
Cessna 01/12/2009 2,000
Walgreen 01/08/2009 1,000
Lenovo Group 01/08/2009 2,500
EMC 01/07/2009 2,400
Logitech International 01/06/2009 500
Alcoa 01/06/2009 15,000
Cigna 01/05/2009 1,100
Source: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/08/first-quarter-layoffs-selection-of-job-cuts-by-major-companies/

And even if you truly want to be a "hard worker" and seek employment to earn money to pay for your insurance premiums, it was reported 17 September 2009 that:

"Unemployment is still climbing in the US, a problem mirrored across all major economies, despite the sharp contraction in output having eased. Most experts predict the growing number of people out of work will prove a significant drag on an economy emerging from the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the early 1930s."
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/6200374/US-economy-will-take-years-to-return-to-pre-recession-level-Paul-Volcker-warns.html

JohnMc1

Overheal wrote: »

Your point is valid but not all encompassing. It doesnt apply to all case examples. Take the 3 year college graduate who's given industry/specialization has come crashing to a halt in the last year. Laden with debt; no job; no insurance; One day he breaks his leg after falling down a flight of stairs and is out thousands in debt.

Thats a fictional example. You dont need to nitpick it but I'm just saying, its difficult to dismiss/stereotype what kind of people are uninsured or suffering poverty.

I understand your point. Most Hospitals will let you make a payment plan in such cases. I know when you already have bills like you mentioned a Hospital bill is a killer but its better than nothing.

I do feel sorry for the College Grads and the one who got laid off from the recession but that is as far as my sympathy goes. Those people will barely use the program while the majority of it will be from the unproductive.

To a point, you are correct. I do not feel good about paying taxes that will go to healthcare that will go to hospitalizing, for example, a morbidly obese teenager and his morbidly obese parents - Sadly thats not a fiction, I;m pretty sure I saw it on A&E. Or maybe it was Discovery Health. I don't recall.

Just click on a channel anymore and you will see that. Its disgusting when kids that are not even 10 yet weight just as if not more than me. Those are the parents Cass Susstein should sterilize.

Im totally against the Amtrak Option. Sorry I meant the Post Office option. I mean! The Public Healthcare option. Sorry.

Seriously this is the thread killer right here.

I believe the DC Fire Department's estimate was 70-80+ Thousand protestors in Washington this week. You're saying they all worked for, or were coerced or bribed by Insurers?

The left are desperate to downplay this. Anything they accuse the right of doing they already did for 8 Years with the Bush. The hypocrisy of the Left shouldn't be that surprising.

Overheal

bobbyjoe wrote: »

What about all the people who voted for Obama where is their voice. A small vocal minority are hijacking the thing with lies. Check out the videos of the teabagger "party" in Washington loads of them don't even know what they are against.

Also why do people think its been rushed? He's been talking about it since before he was elected. Don't recall townhall meeting for any of Bush's decisions. Obama should get onto those blue dogs and force it through without the republicans who have no interest in any reform.

Thats probably the most offensive post I've heard all week.

1) I voted for Obama

2) I'm not in DC but I know what I'm against. Thanks.

3) 80,000 people in Washington is a minority to 300 million around the country - holding down the jobs they still have, raising families, unable to take the time to travel across the country to pound ground in front of the Capitol - sure.

4) We've all seen the clips of the Nuts in the crowd. There are several. To be sure. It does not disqualify the reasoning of others. I find it amusing that most media outlets are focusing primarily on these extremist clips like "Muslims are taking over our country" and "Burn the Bill" bla bla bla. How much are those same outlets discussing the protesters that are calling for Open Competition vs. the Public Option? For that matter how much coverage is the Acorn Scandal getting in the media? I havent been watching CNN, so I honestly don't know - may I assume not a lot?

That reminds me,

2.a) I don't think Muslims are taking over the Country.

5) This just speaks for itself:

Also why do people think its been rushed? He's been talking about it since before he was elected. Don't recall townhall meeting for any of Bush's decisions.

Obama should get onto those blue dogs and force it through without the republicans who have no interest in any reform.

Driver 8

I do feel sorry for the College Grads and the one who got laid off from the recession but that is as far as my sympathy goes. Those people will barely use the program while the majority of it will be from the unproductive.

How can you be certain that those people will barely use the program? Given the huge numbers laid off in this year alone, surely it's impossible to generalise how many either have insurance or will need some form of care in future.

I mean, you keep returning to the spectre of the "unproductive" who you'd hate your tax dollars to be contributing to. Your tax dollars are already going towards keeping people in prison, where they receive better health care than huge numbers of American citizens

The left are desperate to downplay this. Anything they accuse the right of doing they already did for 8 Years with the Bush. The hypocrisy of the Left shouldn't be that surprising.

I don't think anyone is realistically saying people shouldn't have the right to protest anything they're against. I think what people are concerned about is both the misinformation that's stirring up portions of these protests, and the fact that more and more people are arriving to protests and town hall meetings carrying weapons.

bobbyjoe

Overheal wrote: »

Thats probably the most offensive post I've heard all week.

1) I voted for Obama

2) I'm not in DC but I know what I'm against. Thanks.

3) 80,000 people in Washington is a minority to 300 million around the country - holding down the jobs they still have, raising families, unable to take the time to travel across the country to pound ground in front of the Capitol - sure.

4) We've all seen the clips of the Nuts in the crowd. There are several. To be sure. It does not disqualify the reasoning of others. I find it amusing that most media outlets are focusing primarily on these extremist clips like "Muslims are taking over our country" and "Burn the Bill" bla bla bla. How much are those same outlets discussing the protesters that are calling for Open Competition vs. the Public Option? For that matter how much coverage is the Acorn Scandal getting in the media? I havent been watching CNN, so I honestly don't know - may I assume not a lot?

That reminds me,

2.a) I don't think Muslims are taking over the Country.

5) This just speaks for itself:

Its not just the clips of the nutters in the crowd go to any protest you will get that.

Some vids of them here if you want a laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1HFzw8lF7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASS1qFAIQ8

The so called leaders of this "movement" are also nuts.

Glenn Beck: say no more.
Joe Wilson who shouted "you lie" says that the bill would cover illegals even though it specifically states it will not (in capital letters).
Sarah Palin and her death camps comments.
Michael Steel is still saying they want a government take over of the health system.

No point discussing anything with this lot they aren't even dealing with the real world. Obama needs to grow a pair and force it through without them.

Manic Moran

bobbyjoe wrote: »

No point discussing anything with this lot they aren't even dealing with the real world. Obama needs to grow a pair and force it through without them.

With respect, some of us who aren't going on about death panels or being as sensationalist as Mr Beck, who are also currently busily employed and unable to attend protests also have our reservations about the bill as it stands. We're the sort of people who vote for Blue Dog Democrats, and the BDDs would be quite right to be concerned. He can try to force it through without them, but I really don't think he has the votes to do so.

NTM

Overheal

the misinformation that's stirring up portions of these protests, and the fact that more and more people are arriving to protests and town hall meetings carrying weapons.

Precisely, but not for reasons you think. The Gun thing was blown way, way out of whack. It was even turned into a Race Issue. By who? Well, MSNBC for a start, who blatantly edited footage of a Black gun-toter to imply that he was White.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHHoDl2UPSo

the truth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63GiXzpfGhA

You're right to say people are confused due to misinformation. But who's providing the misinformation? The insurance companies? The lobbyists? Or the Media Outlets?

The truth is - whether youre willing to admit it - is that there is Spin coming from virtually all directions on this.

edit: before I watch your videos,

Joe Wilson who shouted "you lie" says that the bill would cover illegals even though it specifically states it will not (in capital letters).

As I understand it, there was a section in the bill, since removed, that would have required verification of a patient's immigration status. That's Post-Treatment, by the way: Hospitals under the current version of the Bill will not be required to verify citizenship, and the Public Option will not check for it either. With the clause gone, Hospitals (ultimately, taxpayers) are going to wind up paying the cost of medical care for illegals.

Representative Wilson is quite correct.

Now mind, thats what I am told in conversation. If you want to refute this claim with quotation from the Bill (and not just Obama's address), fire away.

Driver 8

Of course there's spin coming from various directions, that's the nature of politics, I'm just saying, the notion of people arriving to meetings with weapons (and there have been several documented cases, apart from the msnbc incident you mentioned), and I think people are right to be concerned that people can get that close to the President of the United States with guns.

Overheal

Oh stop. This has nothing to do with guns or political assassinations. The only part Guns are playing is as an image for Constitutionalism.

Driver 8

You can't be serious. I'm sure if people had been allowed anywhere near a Bush rally with a gun, the Glenn Becks of this world would have been having seizures on air, screaming about "lunatic liberals"

The signs at the protest reading "We Came Unarmed This Time" and signs insinuating that the government should be toppled like that in Honduras should give you an indication that some of these people carrying guns goes far beyond demonstrating their constitutional rights. You're bringing a gun to a rally about health care ffs.

How you can not be concerned about people with the kind of signs we've seen at the 9/12 rally and townhall meetings carrying guns in close proximity to the president is beyond me. I'm not comparing Obama to JFK, RFK, MLK or Reagan, but the last century did prove that violence against politicans in the U.S. is not uncommon.

Overheal

planned assassinations. not a crazy with a shotgun.

Driver 8

So those assassinations were all carried out by nice, calm, rational people?

Black Swan

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I do feel sorry for the College Grads and the one who got laid off from the recession but that is as far as my sympathy goes. Those people will barely use the program...

How do you know that college grads and the millions that got laid off have no need for health care coverage aid from the government as Obama is proposing, or will "barely use the program?" How do you know this? Do you have valid sources to support this conclusion by you? Show us the numbers from reliable sources? Links?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

while the majority of it will be from the unproductive.

How to you know in fact that the "majority" are from what you have labeled the "unproductive?" If you are laidoff and unemployed, are you too "unproductive?" How do you differentiate between the laidoff unproductive and your "unproductive?" Where are the reliable numbers that you have used to make this "majority" claim? Links?

If you are unproductively unemployed today and seriously want to get a job, the following reports suggest that it will be increasingly difficult to become gainfully employed, especially with the observation by the Fed Chairman (see earlier post) that unemployment is projected to increase in the months ahead? The bad unemployment news climbs, as do the numbers of unproductive...

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The hemorrhaging of American jobs accelerated at a record pace at the end of 2008, bringing the year's total job losses to 2.6 million or the highest level in more than six decades."
Source: http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/09/news/economy/jobs_december/

"Unemployment rate spikes to 8.5%, a 25-year high, as 663,000 jobs lost in March. 5.1 million jobs have now been lost since the beginning of 2008."
Source: http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/03/news/economy/jobs_march/index.htm

"In August, the number of unemployed persons increased by 466,000 to 14.9
million, and the unemployment rate rose by 0.3 percentage point to 9.7
percent... Since the recession began in December 2007, the number of
unemployed persons has risen by 7.4 million, and the unemployment rate
has grown by 4.8 percentage points."
Source: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

JohnMc1

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

How to you know in fact that the "majority" are from what you have labeled the "unproductive?" If you are laidoff and unemployed, are you too "unproductive?"

The unproductive are the welfare lifers that do not want to amount to anything. Keep trying to spin everything I say. I'm sure Olbermann and Maddow are proud of your work.

Driver 8

Nobody's spinning. You said "unproductive" which I imagine most people would define as those who are not currently working, which includes both the recently laid off and the people who will be on welfare for life.

Less of the persecution complex?

Overheal

I think flogging the Unemployment bandwagon is pointless. There are hardworking Americans out of work, and then there are Absolute Wasters who will leech off the system. You're All Right in your own separate ways. Moving on?

Manic Moran

I think people are right to be concerned that people can get that close to the President of the United States with guns.

You can't.

You won't get within line of sight of him without going through metal detectors. Even in College Green, I passed through portable metal detectors set up on Nassau Street, and Ireland has slightly less of a permissable firearms environment.

NTM

Black Swan

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The unproductive are the welfare lifers that do not want to amount to anything. Keep trying to spin everything I say. I'm sure Olbermann and Maddow are proud of your work.

Does this mean you have no reliable numbers or links to lend support for your comments that assert:

• The "majority" of those who would benefit from Obama's health care initiative were members of "unproductive" society? How did you calculate "majority?" Source of data for support?
• Or that the millions that lost their jobs or college grads would "barely use the program" of health care reform proposed by Obama? Source of data for your "barely use" conclusion?

Overheal

I think flogging the Unemployment bandwagon is pointless. There are hardworking Americans out of work, and then there are Absolute Wasters who will leech off the system. You're All Right in your own separate ways. Moving on?

Black Swan

Overheal wrote: »

I think flogging the Unemployment bandwagon is pointless. There are hardworking Americans out of work, and then there are Absolute Wasters who will leech off the system. You're All Right in your own separate ways. Moving on?

The discussion of where posters derive their information from, or the lack of substantive support for their opinions (e.g., the "majority" of unemployed who would benefit from Obama's health care are members of "unproductive" society), is vital to understanding why some posters have "The hate for Obama," ambivalence, or the opposite feelings?

More often than not, these feelings of "hate" (ambivalence, or the opposite) were not supported by factual data, but rather agree with what Max Weber concluded in Economy and Society: that no one is value free, and that their perceptions of reality (or of Obama and his health care initiative) are often so coloured by a bias upbringing, adverse life condition/experience, or political affiliation that they only look for other subjective opinions that agree with their bias (often ignoring contrary factual evidence). It often becomes a collective "we" vs a collective "them" on this forum, with posters taking sides and challenging each other personally, rather than the content of the issue or the data supporting an argument.

I'm not value free, nor are you. Without reference to factual information (with links) that can be verified, or challenged by other factual sources when available, the US Politics Forum just turns into another AH, or worse, a very personally insulting Thunderdome (e.g., "I'm sure Olbermann and Maddow are proud of your work") that contributes no merit to the discussion of why "The hate for Obama."