drop grammar and rules?

fly_agaric

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well i am more than able to write in proper english - but this is a forum and its easier and quicker to not

Easier for you, certainly. For those trying to decipher your drivel - not so much.

Not using correct grammar & punctuation because you can't be bothered is selfish.

It shows contempt for others.

edit: Why should readers waste their precious time mentally rearranging gobbledegook to save you work?

conchubhar1

dont read it then - fairly simple

conchubhar1

pickarooney wrote: »

Even your sig is contradicting itself now... why would you want people to correct something if it can't, by (your own) definition, be wrong?

pickarooney - you do indeed pick and choose what you read

this is a forum - as i said i dont write fully proper english on the internet to save time etc as i stated

LimeFruitGum

Out of curiosity, what kind of reform would you like to see then?
Spelling? Grammar?

davej

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well i am more than able to write in proper english - but this is a forum and its easier and quicker to not
(in fact i did in english in colege for two weeks, reading was too vast to cover along with history and i had no real interest in the topics)

When I read something that is full of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, I can't help but question the literacy level of the author. He may indeed be making a valid point, but an excessive number of errors will tarnish the message.

Some people seem to claim that they can write english correctly "if they want to", but choose not to because it's easier.
If you have have grown up reading lots of books and were taught english properly in school, it should take no extra effort to compose sentences correctly. In fact, if you are aware of the structure and rules of language, it helps your arguments to take shape. Your experience of the world is shaped by the language you use.

davej

The Raven.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Easier for you, certainly. For those trying to decipher your drivel - not so much.

Not using correct grammar & punctuation because you can't be bothered is selfish.

It shows contempt for others.

edit: Why should readers waste their precious time mentally rearranging gobbledegook to save you work?

+1

'Drivel' is putting it mildly. Illiterate and lacking in intelligent content might be more apt. Highly inappropriate for an English forum :rolleyes:!!

Dun

It sounds to me like the argument should be changed to "should we drop punctuation and correct grammar in order to speed up the use of text messages and internet postings".

From constant daily contact with non-native speakers of English, it's obvious that the grammatical and punctuation rules do not pose anywhere as much of a challenge to learning English as does the magnitude of the vocabulary and idioms in English.

Grammar is not a tool to beat people up with when they get it wrong - it's a guide that helps comprehension and understanding.

LordSutch

If we was to just drop proper grammar it would be awful, and as others have already said, ye can tell people's socio economic backgrnd from there grammer. Txt speak is one thng (on a small phone), but if you r writing emails or letters then, their is grammer rules and spelling rules to follow, Grammar should not be used to beat people up when they get them wrong, it's a guide that helps you identify who you was talking to or who, you was sat beside

FlutterinBantam

Tell me you are taking the piss.!!

LordSutch

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Tell me you are taking the piss.!!

I is

FlutterinBantam

:eek:Whew.

is_that_so

conchubhar1 wrote: »

communication is the point of language

if you cant tell what type of person or publication is, well thats laziness on your part

it is not dumbing it down - it is making it more accessible

more flexibility....

You seem to misunderstand what language communication is. A few links to help out. A lot of the concepts of this communication are based on Grice's Conversational Maxims. A latter day expanded version is Relevance Theory. Much of language communication is predicated on utterances(what we say) and what are called scripts (the context in which these utterances occur). Scripts form much of our communication in our daily lives.

The initial 5-6 utterances in a conversation can be predicted with a fair degree of accuracy because we understand the scripts and the context in which the work.

Grammatically English is really not that complex. Contrast the two English past forms, past simple, past perfect with the French composé, historique, imparfait, and plusquamparfait or the Polish requirements for the declension of nouns and adjectives and pretty much everything else or even the need to hear the final verb in a German sentence to determine whether the meaning is active or passive voice.

Indeed the biggest difficult for learners is the richness of vocabulary.

What English does not have, and what many languages do , is a body that determines how words are spelt, how the grammar is used and what is and is not acceptable. In fact it is this looser set of rules that has allowed English to be so tremendously flexible.

One key element of communication is the relevance of an utterance to the interaction. If speakers have a different set of rules or no rules, you can quite easily see where your proposals to scrap grammar break down completely. In a world of potential linguistic chaos there will be less communication if speakers get to make up their own rules, although paradoxically a new set of rules would result.

Based on your original question I am guessing there is a feeling of resentment against those who criticise poor grammar and use it as an excuse to assign socio-economic labels. Many rules speakers automatically apply because they are so easy and we all get them right.

While I do not condone this labelling they do have a point and one I strongly support. Many of the so-called grammar issues do tend to boil down to "difficulties" with a fairly limited number of structures. That, I am afraid, can only be seen as laziness.

TBH scrapping or rewriting grammar because a certain potion of the native speaker population can't be bothered to learn or have never learnt the rules, is like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. Like all of these things, a degree of decent teaching can take care of much of it.

Yoda wrote: »

If one has low standards one gets what one deserves.

I don't think that excuses should be made for carelessness. It is never "too much trouble" to use capital letters or apostrophes, or to go back and correct a misspelling when one writes a posting.

English could use a measure of spelling reform. I like Axel Wijk's Regularized English. But "dropping grammar" makes no sense.

I'd wholeheartedly agree with spelling reform. The last real spelling reform occurred in the 19th century with the original Oxford dictionary. Unfortunately now there are so many who lay claim to spelling this could be difficult to address, especially when it comes to academics and their ability to "work together".