Green Party been Wiped out locally

Macha

holidayhere wrote: »

For example, they single handedly screwed up the car industry in Ireland.
Legislation that they were pushing was coming down the road anyhow.
There is a balance between doing the right thing and understanding the broader business implications.

Firstly, either they did or they didn't. You can't say "Oh they destroyed the car industry in Ireland" and then straight afters say "the legislation was going to be implemented either way". Secondly, they recently announced a target of 250,000 electric vehicles on the roads by 2020. Thirdly, car sales are mostly down due to the recession, not any changes in VRT.

You should be happy we witnessed the most car-friendly planning and construction over the last 15 years and now use our cars more than anyone else in the world, thanks to FF policies.

Akrasia

taconnol wrote: »

cnocbui, there are several companies set up in Ireland that help manufacture wind turbines. There is also OpenHydro in Louth that manufactures tidal turbines. Energy storage is the holy grail of renewables and there are great strides being made in this area. There is also the issue of a European supergrid. Nuclear brings it's own problems, as the Greens have pointed out.

TBH, I agree with oscarbravo & am not sure now whether it's better for the Greens to pull out or to stay in government. And I'm not talking for the sake of themselves but for the sake of the country. Investors like stability and our financial system really needs stability. I don't think a general election will send that great a signal to the international community about Ireland's political stability.

Then again, FF don't deserve to be in government after all they've done over the last few years and there's a certain arrogance that comes with being in power for so long that is obvious in many recent FF interviews.

IMO, the instability caused by a GE over the summer (which is when it would have to be if the greens pulled out now) would be nothing compared to the instability that will happen after the extremely unpopular FF/green/pd government try and ram through the harshest budget in the history of the state.

There will be major industrial unrest which will damage our reputation and our economy much more than an election.

Yoda

Are we not having a re-run of Lisbon this year anyway? Convenient to have a GE alonside.

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

Firstly, either they did or they didn't. You can't say "Oh they destroyed the car industry in Ireland" and then straight afters say "the legislation was going to be implemented either way". Secondly, they recently announced a target of 250,000 electric vehicles on the roads by 2020. Thirdly, car sales are mostly down due to the recession, not any changes in VRT.

You should be happy we witnessed the most car-friendly planning and construction over the last 15 years and now use our cars more than anyone else in the world, thanks to FF policies.

I think the problem was that they took the legislation, and then implemented in the most brain dead way possible, severely reducing the value of the current fleet of cars, and making it more attractive to import every car from the UK.

You also have their failure/mess up on implementing the incandescent bulb ban.

Even their biketowork scheme fails on account of the fact that it's still cheaper to buy a bike on the internet, rather than their scheme through "pre-approved" sellers (i.e. gouge on profits because people won't have a choice but to use them).

They have been a disaster at the national level, even grampa Simpson would have handled this better.

walshb

ShooterSF wrote: »

Derlighted. What the hell does a country of 4 million people need a green party for anyway? Sure be environmental but there's no need for such a huge emphasis on it.
Maybe that will come across as ignorant. I'm not suggesting we abandon green issues but we have to be realistic globally we don't have a big enough effect that we should make green issues a priority. Economics, health and social issues are more important (not necissarily (sp?) in that order).

Not ignorant at all. The ignorance is those who think that a small country like Ireland is making a difference to the world when countries like China and India and the U.S. are
the mega huge countries who are doing the vast majority of this pollution.

Then, you have the gormless greens telling us that we have to switch bloody light bulbs to save the planet? Our pollution levels are minuscule, absolute minuscule.

The party hasn't any real ideas, so it jumps on the save the planet bandwagon.

walshb

latenia wrote: »

I asked John Gormley directly on my own doorstep if he would go into government with Fianna Fáil when he was canvassing before the last general election. He replied that they wouldn't in a million years and proceeded to describe 2 individual ministers as crooks that he could never have anything to do with. I know all politicians are lying scumbags but to have it done to my face like that really made my blood boil. I'm looking forward to seeing him when he comes asking for my vote again at the next GE.

And Sargeant making out that under his leadership he would NEVER
go into coalition with FF and then what does he do? He leads them in and resigns and takes a comfy ministry position. Total waters!

squonk

I'm in Trevor's constituency and some of the reasons I gave a vote to the Greens in the last election were that they seemed to be the only party who's members used the public transport system. I used to often see Trevor and one of the other guys (can't remember the name) on the Drogheda train. On a one to one basis also he was an opena nd personable guy. I also voted to try and inject a bit of change into the traditional government makeup here and I was also assured that my vote wouldn't involve prolonging the FF led governemtn that I was trying to get rid of.

What has happened now is that the Greens went back on their promise to not enter government with FF, you're damn lucky if you see Trevor Sargent around anymore and you certainly won't get him on the trains from what I can see. Instead we get Gormless making sure to get on telly arriving into government buildings on his bike every time there's a cabinet meeting. I think that's very cynical. For all the reasons above the Greens have not turned out to be the party I expected and I really couldn't justify continuing to vote for them now I think about it. I think they deserve what they got.

LostinBlanch

You know that when Gormley and Ryan arrive on their bikes for thier photo ops their ministerial merc is behind them just out of shot?

Says it all about them really.

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

I think the problem was that they took the legislation, and then implemented in the most brain dead way possible, severely reducing the value of the current fleet of cars, and making it more attractive to import every car from the UK.

How so? VRT equally applies to cars imported from the UK. As I already said, we have the highest private car usage rates in the world and are facing some seriously hefty fines if we don't bring our transport emissions down. Correct market signals to prospective car buyers are a no-brainer.

astrofool wrote: »

You also have their failure/mess up on implementing the incandescent bulb ban.

How was this a failure/mess?

astrofool wrote: »

Even their biketowork scheme fails on account of the fact that it's still cheaper to buy a bike on the internet, rather than their scheme through "pre-approved" sellers (i.e. gouge on profits because people won't have a choice but to use them)..

I know at least two people who sat down and did the maths and it worked out cheaper to get one here. They both went ahead and bought their bikes through the scheme here. The government can't control the £/€ exchange rate. You're also ignoring the hidden costs of increased car usage and the hidden benefits of increased bike usage, that include
-lesser burden on health service through better air quality and more people getting exercise
- lower costs to business and local authorities through provision of expensive parking facilities
You can still bring it all back to CBA if you want to be totally cynical about it.

astrofool wrote: »

They have been a disaster at the national level, even grampa Simpson would have handled this better.

You haven't proven this at all.

squonk

LostinBlanch wrote: »

You know that when Gormley and Ryan arrive on their bikes for thier photo ops their ministerial merc is behind them just out of shot?

Says it all about them really.

I know that and it makes my blood boil! It's far better for everyone if he rides in his ministerial car which is provided and it makes life a bit easier for the Gardai who are charged with protecting him I'm sure too. I just don't know how he can believe that we do not know this! I'd have more respect for him if he arrived in his ministerial car. Also, what does he have? A Merc or one of those Lexus HFI job? If it's the Lexus I believe thy're more expensive first off than a regular car anyway.

squonk

taconnol wrote: »

How so? VRT equally applies to cars imported from the UK. As I already said, we have the highest private car usage rates in the world and are facing some seriously hefty fines if we don't bring our transport emissions down. Correct market signals to prospective car buyers are a no-brainer.

How was this a failure/mess?


I know at least two people who sat down and did the maths and it worked out cheaper to get one here. They both went ahead and bought their bikes through the scheme here. The government can't control the £/€ exchange rate. You're also ignoring the hidden costs of increased car usage and the hidden benefits of increased bike usage, that include
-lesser burden on health service through better air quality and more people getting exercise
- lower costs to business and local authorities through provision of expensive parking facilities
You can still bring it all back to CBA if you want to be totally cynical about it.


You haven't proven this at all.

I don't know why we are continuiing with this Kyoto agreement when the countries who account for the greatest production of pollutants (US, China and India) aren't involved or honouring the agreement. Instead we're spending money buying Carbon Credits which the Greens are cheering on. Isn't the reason we're all paying PRSI and Health Levies now because the country doesn't have money? Also, judging by the steep rise in the cost of the council's recycling scheme (Fingal) over the past few years, it looks very much like the waste recycling project isn't very ecconomical, but that's OK because we, the householders, are always there to get hit up for any shortfalls. Enough! I'm paying enough already thanks to the current government and I just get really mad watching Ryan rubbing his hands and talking about Carbon Taxes. It's a disgrace.

Macha

squonk wrote: »

I don't know why we are continuiing with this Kyoto agreement when the countries who account for the greatest production of pollutants (US, China and India) aren't involved or honouring the agreement. Instead we're spending money buying Carbon Credits which the Greens are cheering on.

The Bush era is over and Obama is on track to sign up to the climate talks in Copenhagen this autumn. It's also quite hypocritical for us to talk about the greatest pollutants and conveniently talk about countries with huge populations when in fact we have one of the highest per capita CO2 emissions in the world at over 17 tonnes per person. Shirking our responsibilities and saying it's all someone else's fault is not the way forward.

squonk wrote: »

Isn't the reason we're all paying PRSI and Health Levies now because the country doesn't have money? Also, judging by the steep rise in the cost of the council's recycling scheme (Fingal) over the past few years, it looks very much like the waste recycling project isn't very ecconomical, but that's OK because we, the householders, are always there to get hit up for any shortfalls. Enough! I'm paying enough already thanks to the current government and I just get really mad watching Ryan rubbing his hands and talking about Carbon Taxes. It's a disgrace.

Your rants are getting more and more illogical. It's clear you don't understand the concept of externalised costs.

squonk

taconnol wrote: »

The Bush era is over and Obama is on track to sign up to the climate talks in Copenhagen this autumn. It's also quite hypocritical for us to talk about the greatest pollutants and conveniently talk about countries with huge populations when in fact we have one of the highest per capita CO2 emissions in the world at over 17 tonnes per person. Shirking our responsibilities and saying it's all someone else's fault is not the way forward.


Your rants are getting more and more illogical. It's clear you don't understand the concept of externalised costs.

Yeah, you're dead right, I don't understand the concept of externalised costs. I also don't really understand exactely how my DVD player turns those bumps in the disc representing 1's and 0's into what I'm seeing on my screen. My point is that as a householder, I shouldn't have to udnerstand the intricacies of the recycling industry to have my rubbish collected. I should be (and am) more concerned with getting value for money from whatever method I use to dispose of waste. I'm not getting that because frankly it seems there's a system there now where charges can rise to any point and it will all have to be covered by the consumer. No choice. FACT!

Darsad

Is it not time for D Boyle to step down as Chair / spokesperson for the Greens . He is quite clearly unelectable and has no personal mandate to speak through the media on gov policies etc.

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

How so?

Cars imported from the UK all fall into the new VRT/motor tax scheme, regardless of age, Irish cars pre the changeoever date, fall into the old scheme, this devalued all people who bought green cars before the changeover, and encourages the buying of older green cars from the UK instead of Ireland. Every person who tried to be green before the changeover got shafted.

How was this a failure/mess?

All the systems were geared up for the changeover, companies were basing sales on the fact that people had to change, IC bulb production was being run down, and then they drop the changeover with barely a murmour.

I know at least two people who sat down and did the maths and it worked out cheaper to get one here. They both went ahead and bought their bikes through the scheme here. The government can't control the £/€ exchange rate.

They didn't need to have approved sellers, in the bikes I was looking at, they don't go on general sale (fold up bikes), so the internet is virtually the only place for them. They were still much cheaper before the exchange rate changed anyway.

You haven't proven this at all.

The electorate appear to disagree.

Akrasia

walshb wrote: »

Not ignorant at all. The ignorance is those who think that a small country like Ireland is making a difference to the world when countries like China and India and the U.S. are
the mega huge countries who are doing the vast majority of this pollution.

So hypocrisy doesn't mean anything to you?
How can we ask China or the U.S. to reduce their pollution if we're going to continue polluting ourselves.

I can see that meeting at the U.N. going very well.

Firefox10

walshb wrote: »

And Sargeant making out that under his leadership he would NEVER
go into coalition with FF and then what does he do? He leads them in and resigns and takes a comfy ministry position. Total waters!

This is something i do not understand. Is it not that the idea of political Party is to get into goverment and inplement some their policies?? The greens got their chance to go into goverment. Were they not right to jump at the chance irrespective of who their goverment partners were going to be??

Macha

squonk wrote: »

Yeah, you're dead right, I don't understand the concept of externalised costs.

Well then don't you think you should educate yourself on an import concept that is central not only to politics but to how we run our society? Then maybe you might see things from a broader angle, rather than just your own singlar point of view.
Comparing a simple concept to the inner workings of a DVD player is risible.

astrofool wrote: »

Cars imported from the UK all fall into the new VRT/motor tax scheme, regardless of age, Irish cars pre the changeoever date, fall into the old scheme, this devalued all people who bought green cars before the changeover, and encourages the buying of older green cars from the UK instead of Ireland. Every person who tried to be green before the changeover got shafted.

I wasn't aware of that - it certainly looks like a mistake.

astrofool wrote: »

All the systems were geared up for the changeover, companies were basing sales on the fact that people had to change, IC bulb production was being run down, and then they drop the changeover with barely a murmour.

The ban has been cancelled? First I heard of it - not saying you're wrong!

I'd just like to say that while you're pointing out what are relatively small holes in policies, you're also quite intentionally ignoring quite large achievements by the Greens. I'm not saying they're perfect but I don't feel that you're being even-handed. I will accept mistakes that the Greens have made, if I find out about them, or become aware of them (eg the VRT issue above).

astrofool wrote: »

They didn't need to have approved sellers, in the bikes I was looking at, they don't go on general sale (fold up bikes), so the internet is virtually the only place for them. They were still much cheaper before the exchange rate changed anyway.

Oh come on. You can get fold-up bikes everywhere. I've seen them in shops in Ireland for at least the last 2 years.

And they were not cheaper before the exchange rate. Think back to when £.60p was €1. Factor in the removal of VAT and it's just completely false that it was cheaper. AND that's considering chainreactioncycles.com, which is by far the cheapest online cycle shop that even delivers to Ireland for free.

You're just making stuff up at this stage.

astrofool wrote: »

The electorate appear to disagree.

Thanks for the newsflash - I hadn't noticed.

astrofool

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gormley-lights-the-way-with-ban-on-bulbs-1240074.html

Bulb ban by Jan 2009, saving 700,000 tonnes for CO2 a year, now we're going to follow the rest of the EU, whenever that happens.

Problem with the bikes is, why can't I order from anywhere and get the tax back, the cheaper the price, the less the government loses, but instead it's being used to prop up businesses who will gouge the consumer.

Folding bikes were available, but not the bike I wanted. However, this I don't get, why mention this point, do you think I was unaware that folding bikes were available at all? Is it not possible to see the argument from another point of view when formulating a reply? Rather than having endless clarifications and quote wars.

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gormley-lights-the-way-with-ban-on-bulbs-1240074.html

Bulb ban by Jan 2009, saving 700,000 tonnes for CO2 a year, now we're going to follow the rest of the EU, whenever that happens.

Sorry, you still haven't shown that the ban has been cancelled...

astrofool wrote: »

Problem with the bikes is, why can't I order from anywhere and get the tax back, the cheaper the price, the less the government loses, but instead it's being used to prop up businesses who will gouge the consumer.

Because the government only charges VAT on items sold within Ireland. So they can't exactly offer to not charge VAT when it's the British/French etc Exchequer that is charging the VAT. Or am I missing something? AFAIK, that's how VAT works within the EU. Could be wrong.

astrofool wrote: »

Folding bikes were available, but not the bike I wanted. However, this I don't get, why mention this point, do you think I was unaware that folding bikes were available at all? Is it not possible to see the argument from another point of view when formulating a reply? Rather than having endless clarifications and quote wars.

Well that's different from what you said! I'm not going to apologise for taking you up on the points you made. That's the nature of debating.

I could equally say the same thing to do you but I don't just demand that you see it from my point or view, I'd rather explain where I'm coming from. I think I've been fair and accepted when you made valid points. To just expect another person to agree with you and not question your position is not really what this forum is about, imo.

Seth Brundle

Red Alert wrote: »

They know the game is up so I reckon they'll hang on as long as possible. Eamonn Ryan and Gormley both know that they won't be ministers after the next election.

...but they will have their pensions!

gerky wrote: »

So you follow the do as I say not as I do type of environmental protection, why should we expect other countries to limit their levels of pollution when per capita we're way way above most other countries.

Its been two years since they got in. Have the pollution levels gone down? How many fines are we die to receive this year from the EU for non compliance, etc.

turgon wrote: »

I think the hatred nationwide is bordering on ignorance.

Why? People were misled by the attiture that the greens had whilst in opposition and towards the last GE. Nobody really thought that they would jump into bed with FF!

turgon wrote: »

I don't see how people here cant see that the greens make up a mere 7% of government. They are not going to be that influential. And we even saw their influence two days ago - is two days beyond the memories of the posters here? The very fact we had 2 by-elections was solely because of the greens. And the extended elections times (7am - 10pm) allowed many like my brother to vote when they couldn't have otherwise.

Is that the height of their achievements then?

turgon wrote: »

Greens are lot better than FF. Its FF's sole fault the mess is so big, and the greens are compensating for that. I admire the fact they had the balls to go into government rather than taking the cowardly way I know most people here probably would have.

Wrong. Everyone knows that FF are corrupt. However, for Gormley to effectively endorse Berties Mayoral bid and for all of the other times that they stood by whilst FF made a mess of the country does not take courage. There are two green members of cabinet and they have not just endorsed but defended the course of action take to date to deal with the mess created by their bedfellows.
It does not take balls to go into government. It takes balls to do the right thing for the electorate!

20goto10 wrote: »

Car tax has come down on many cars so I don't see what your complaint is there and although fuel prices are on the rise again its hardly an election issue. Particularly not a local election issue.

1. we don't have car tax
2. motor tax has come down on cars bought since 2008. Motor tax on older cars has increased. Should I be eco-friendly and get scrap of my 1997 car for a shiny new model because tax is lower? How good is that for the planet?

cnocbui wrote: »

The Greens are proposing the establishment of a nuclear power station? I didn't know that.

IIRC they are willing to let people talk about going nuclear, I still don't see them approving of a nuclear station!

Deleted User wrote: »

The funny thing about the current situation is,that it is showing up those that voted Green in the first place as not being "real green issues" voters at all for the most part.They are a floating anti FF vote.

Thats one way of looking at it. The other is that they believed the pre-election claims and anti FF/PD rants in the Dáil and now believe that they were full of hot air and would be damned to see Gormley's party do well in the LEs.

astrofool wrote: »

Cars imported from the UK all fall into the new VRT/motor tax scheme, regardless of age, Irish cars pre the changeoever date, fall into the old scheme, this devalued all people who bought green cars before the changeover, and encourages the buying of older green cars from the UK instead of Ireland. Every person who tried to be green before the changeover got shafted.

Cars first registered (in any country) before 2008 will be on the old motor tax system.
http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry, you still haven't shown that the ban has been cancelled...


Because the government only charges VAT on items sold within Ireland. So they can't exactly offer to not charge VAT when it's the British/French etc Exchequer that is charging the VAT. Or am I missing something? AFAIK, that's how VAT works within the EU. Could be wrong.

http://www.biketowork.ie/ The savings are based on the cost of the bike being used as a tax credit, and not the VAT not being charged. So on a bike that costs €200, 47% of that figure could be saved. It's incredible that even with a 47% saving, that the internet could still be cheaper than a local retailer.

International companies are compelled to charge Irish VAT if they trade above a certain amount in Ireland (€10,000-€20,000 iirc).

On the bulb ban:
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/light_bulb_proposal_altered_in_light_of_accelerated_eu_plans

3 years later and 2.1 million tonnes of CO2.

On the car:
UK car imported is charged at the new VRT rate (I shouldn't have written motor tax here). Person bought green car in 2007 @32% VRT, person today can import the same 2007 car from UK @16% VRT, value of the persons car in Ireland goes down proportionately.

Macha

Thanks for the clarifications astrofool. I still disagree is the cost of bikes. So many other factors involved in costs - it isn't really the fault of the Greens. However, there could be better things happening like improving cycle lanes, etc.

Re: lightbulbs, it wasn't cancelled but put back 9 months. Point taken, though.

I could now start on the plus side of green jobs, energy efficiency, energy security, green procurement guidelines, wind farms, hydro power, patents, super grid, smart grid, demand management etc in order to paint a balanced view. Ugh, this is tiring :pac:

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

I could now start on the plus side of green jobs, energy efficiency, energy security, green procurement guidelines, wind farms, hydro power, patents, super grid, smart grid, demand management etc in order to paint a balanced view. Ugh, this is tiring :pac:

The thing is, a lot of those things were happening anyway, it certainly didn't take the greens to come in to kick start many of them, we've been trying for years to build more wind farms and hydro power, the greens still haven't got around the problem of local planning and appeals holding the process up for years. A smart grid has been on the cards for years, but it still isn't being rolled out in earnest.

I had hoped the greens would have sorted the bigger issues like public transport, but we're still overly reliant on a car, and public transport is getting cut all over the place, and still not reliable for the majority (i.e. not on the dart or luas line).

The big things that they have implemented have been ham fisted, and alienated a lot of voters, they have been an even more imbecilic part of an imbecilic government, which has seen them get wiped out to a greater extent than their partner, FF in the locals.

They should have tackled the semi state public transport companies, forced them to work with (and allow for) private operators (and stop focusing on cycling until this is solved AND proper segregated bike lanes are in place), amended motor tax so everyone is on a level playing field, made legislation to allow for renewable power to be fast tracked through the planning authorities, but they have done none of that, and are now paying the price.

suimhneas

am delighted the greens were wipped out. They are a bunch of city boys brought up with silver spoons in their gobs, thinking they know whats best for the country and countryside, thinking they know better than the people that have worked the land for generations, that have preserved the land and the countryside for years. If the greens had their way the entire countryside would be left as a national park.

Yoda

Tosh.

Dyr

suimhneas wrote: »

am delighted the greens were wipped out. They are a bunch of city boys brought up with silver spoons in their gobs, thinking they know whats best for the country and countryside, thinking they know better than the people that have worked the land for generations, that have preserved the land and the countryside for years. If the greens had their way the entire countryside would be left as a national park.

That would be pretty cool, we'd actually have some countryside instead of just fields with cows and rusted ford escorts.

Sonderval

thinking they know better than the people that have worked the land for generations, that have preserved the land and the countryside for years

What planet are you living on??? Seriously, some people in this thread have some really weird ideas. Others display a total lack of understanding and instead run off with their gut feelings. Neither are conducive to governance.

I think the greens really need to take the rather clear message that was delivered to them and drop out of coalition. I'm pretty sure thats what the grass roots supporters we're indicating via the result.

brianthebard

taconnol wrote: »

How so? The Greens were always going to be a minority party and compromising along the way. I don't think the fact that they didn't achieve everything means that them being in power "goes against everything they were supposed to be about".

They have succeeded in implementing very significant policy changes. Just recently, Eamon Ryan is rarely out of the news with the announcement of another government initiative or target (electric vehicles, green procurement policies), etc. There are green job announcements happening on a regular basis.

Sorry, not everything (that was the drink talking) but certainly a lot of policies were compromised on, policies which some people probably felt were what made the Green party what it is/was. I'm not a green supporter so I can't claim an inside track on what their members expected, but I think it was a long way from initiatives and targets. Especially since the "GEC" it appears as if the greens have just sat back and let FF get on with it, abdicating previous responsibility in light of the economic problem. Now is when solid green policy, actual implementation, is needed more than ever but its not happening to any real degree.

walshb

Firefox10 wrote: »

This is something i do not understand. Is it not that the idea of political Party is to get into goverment and inplement some their policies?? The greens got their chance to go into goverment. Were they not right to jump at the chance irrespective of who their goverment partners were going to be??

What?

That's okay if you haven't been harping on slating FF and saying how
you would never share power or go into government with them.

Then they do exactly what they said they would NEVER do and they
go into government with them. That says it all about that lot!