Green Party been Wiped out locally

brianthebard

walshb wrote: »

Not ignorant at all. The ignorance is those who think that a small country like Ireland is making a difference to the world when countries like China and India and the U.S. are
the mega huge countries who are doing the vast majority of this pollution.

Then, you have the gormless greens telling us that we have to switch bloody light bulbs to save the planet? Our pollution levels are minuscule, absolute minuscule.

The party hasn't any real ideas, so it jumps on the save the planet bandwagon.

If our pollution is tiny then that's all the more reason the abolish it-shouldn't be too hard if its so miniscule.

Akrasia

Firefox10 wrote: »

This is something i do not understand. Is it not that the idea of political Party is to get into goverment and inplement some their policies?? The greens got their chance to go into goverment. Were they not right to jump at the chance irrespective of who their goverment partners were going to be??

No, they showed a horrendous lack of foresight and integrity.

They are elected to fulfil a mandate. If that mandate includes the removal of FF from office, it is a very bad idea to start off your executive career by alienating your traditional and new support base.

Anyone could have seen that a FF/PD independent government would have been very unstable and would almost certainly have collapsed by now if it wasn't for the green support. If they had waited instead of rushing into 'power' at the first offer of ministerial mercs then the green party, and the nation would all be much better off

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

The thing is, a lot of those things were happening anyway, it certainly didn't take the greens to come in to kick start many of them, we've been trying for years to build more wind farms and hydro power, the greens still haven't got around the problem of local planning and appeals holding the process up for years.

It certainly is an issue but from working in the area, I can tell you that things are moving faster than they used to.

astrofool wrote: »

A smart grid has been on the cards for years, but it still isn't being rolled out in earnest.

Er ESB announcement? Things are moving.

astrofool wrote: »

I had hoped the greens would have sorted the bigger issues like public transport, but we're still overly reliant on a car, and public transport is getting cut all over the place, and still not reliable for the majority (i.e. not on the dart or luas line).

I've said it before, there is no Green minister in Dept of Transport. As it is, they've made announcements of a significant target for EVs for 2010/2020. They also brought in the bike-to-work scheme and DCC has its first cycling engineer.

astrofool wrote: »

They should have tackled the semi state public transport companies, forced them to work with (and allow for) private operators (and stop focusing on cycling until this is solved AND proper segregated bike lanes are in place), amended motor tax so everyone is on a level playing field, made legislation to allow for renewable power to be fast tracked through the planning authorities, but they have done none of that, and are now paying the price.

Semi-state public transport companies are an actual nightmare and have been completely strenghened by FF policies. Having seen the inner workings of the DTO I can tell you it's impossible to deal with them and they are holding any reform up. Again - Dept of Transport issue.

Again, I have to say that you are being unfair and totally ignoring issues like Green Procurement Polices. You're being incredibly selective.

brianthebard wrote: »

Now is when solid green policy, actual implementation, is needed more than ever but its not happening to any real degree.

I have to disagree. As a minority party they will always have to compromise with whoever their larger party in power is. So to point out that they've made compromises doesn't really prove much: it was inevitable.

There are very significant things happening in the green sector and to say that nothing is happening is just false. In another thread I've listed out approx. 5,000 green jobs, massive investment by ESB, announcements of EV targets, increased renewable energy target to 40% for 2020, rolling out of pilot smart metering, bike-to-work scheme (agreed money would be better spent elsewhere), huge capital spending on retrofitting existing housing stock with insulation, announcement of new planning guidelines, first ever carbon budget, revisal of VRT rules, etc etc.

I'm not saying they're perfect - far from it and I don't agree with everything they've done but some of the comments on here are very unfair and intentionally leaving out inconvenient facts.

Seth Brundle

suimhneas wrote: »

am delighted the greens were wipped out. They are a bunch of city boys brought up with silver spoons in their gobs, thinking they know whats best for the country and countryside, thinking they know better than the people that have worked the land for generations, that have preserved the land and the countryside for years. If the greens had their way the entire countryside would be left as a national park.

I'm not suggesting that the greens know how to run the countryside but in all honesty, do you think that the farmers are doing a good job? I would go out on a limb and say that 90% of them are doing one form of environmental damage or another! The other 10% probably are!

Blowfish

astrofool wrote: »

Problem with the bikes is, why can't I order from anywhere and get the tax back, the cheaper the price, the less the government loses, but instead it's being used to prop up businesses who will gouge the consumer.

You can. There is no restriction on where the bikes can be bought from. Any restrictions of where you could buy from were put in place entirely by your employer.

[edit] Found the link:

Participation

Participation in the scheme is voluntary for employers. However, when an employer agrees to participate, he or she must make the scheme generally available, on an equal basis, to all employees requesting it.

There are no in built restrictions in the scheme regarding where the bicycle and associated safety equipment can be purchased. This is a matter for employers as they will be purchasing the bicycles and safety equipment in all instances.

brianthebard

taconnol wrote: »

There are very significant things happening in the green sector and to say that nothing is happening is just false. In another thread I've listed out approx. 5,000 green jobs, massive investment by ESB, announcements of EV targets, increased renewable energy target to 40% for 2020, rolling out of pilot smart metering, bike-to-work scheme (agreed money would be better spent elsewhere), huge capital spending on retrofitting existing housing stock with insulation, announcement of new planning guidelines, first ever carbon budget, revisal of VRT rules, etc etc.

I'm not saying they're perfect - far from it and I don't agree with everything they've done but some of the comments on here are very unfair and intentionally leaving out inconvenient facts.

Are we going to meet our 2010 targets? That's what I'm concerned about.
I'll commend them on the retrofitting idea, and there are others things there that are solid initiatives, but not enough. I agree with Akrasia, they were elected to fulfill a mandate, they should've thought long and hard about going into power with FF and I think they were short sighted. It was always clear that FF wanted them there to make up the voting numbers, they certainly weren't a necessity as far as FF were concerned. They've allowed themselves be treated as green window dressing and its upset their supporters.

Macha

brianthebard wrote: »

Are we going to meet our 2010 targets? That's what I'm concerned about.

Mm...well we have more chance now than we did before the Greens came to power - I genuinely believe that.

Energy efficiency has increased 10% 1997-2005, saving €750million - obviously that can't be attributed to the Greens! We'll have to see if that rate accelerates. I thought I saw a figure of installed renewable energy capacity at 18% for Ireland but I can't find it now and could be totally wrong. Again, some of that was in the pipeline before the Greens.

brianthebard wrote: »

I'll commend them on the retrofitting idea, and there are others things there that are solid initiatives, but not enough. I agree with Akrasia, they were elected to fulfill a mandate, they should've thought long and hard about going into power with FF and I think they were short sighted. It was always clear that FF wanted them there to make up the voting numbers, they certainly weren't a necessity as far as FF were concerned. They've allowed themselves be treated as green window dressing and its upset their supporters.

What can I say? You're right but as a person concerned about the environment, I'm glad they went in and got the ball rolling. Maybe in the long run it will be bad for them as a party but personally I'm more concerned about CO2 emissions and water quality etc than the fate of the Greens.

astrofool

Blowfish wrote: »

You can. There is no restriction on where the bikes can be bought from. Any restrictions of where you could buy from were put in place entirely by your employer.

[edit] Found the link:

Like the henry ford, any colour as long as it's black:

http://www.biketowork.ie/site/bike-shops/

Do you see any non irish bike shops there?

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

Like the henry ford, any colour as long as it's black:

http://www.biketowork.ie/site/bike-shops/

Do you see any online bike shops there?

astrofool - that is not the website of the scheme but the website of a private company set up to administer the scheme for companies, if employed by those companies.

My brother bought a bike through Cycle Superstore out in Tallaght through the scheme:
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/

A friend bought through Think Bike in Rathmines:
http://thinkbike.ie/

Akrasia

Sonderval wrote: »

What planet are you living on??? Seriously, some people in this thread have some really weird ideas. Others display a total lack of understanding and instead run off with their gut feelings. Neither are conducive to governance.

I think the greens really need to take the rather clear message that was delivered to them and drop out of coalition. I'm pretty sure thats what the grass roots supporters we're indicating via the result.

This thread indicates very clearly the major failing in representative democracy.

By voting for representatives rather direct democracy (voting on issues) it is very easy for the government to 'accidentally' misinterpret the message of the electorate when they vote a certain way.

The reality is, there isn't any coherent message at all and therefore the representatives can decide for themselves what their 'mandate' should be.

In a true democracy we wouldn't be waiting for the corrupt and incompetent to 'step down', there would be a motion from the people to call a recall election. The government would be afraid of the people and not arrogant self serving bastards that are safe in the knowledge that once they're in, they're safe until the next election.

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

Er ESB announcement? Things are moving (slowly).

FYP

I've said it before, there is no Green minister in Dept of Transport. As it is, they've made announcements of a significant target for EVs for 2010/2020. They also brought in the bike-to-work scheme and DCC has its first cycling engineer.

This is the problem, in order to be green, you need to sort out transport, and to do that you need to break the back of the unions in the transport industry. How they could have gone into government and expected to make a significant difference without tackling this, is beyond me. Build public transport, build cycle lanes, split the public bus and train companies up, so they are so split they are unrecognisable, and start from there. To get people to give up the car, this has to be done, public transport has to be better than driving, if they want to have any chance of reducing cars on the road.

They haven't been able to do this, what they have done has alienated people (badly implemented VRT, undecipherable parking space tax), these hit people in the wallet and in their daily lives. It's no wonder they did so badly, esp. when they announce billions to be spent on cycling (I wonder will we all get a merc to follow us so we're safe from the buses).

All their successes have been light fluffy nonsense that any party could have done, smart grid -> needed, big savings to the consumer and public. Renewables -> reduce our dependence on imported energy, generate jobs. Carbon tax -> in the pipeline in europe for years. Retrofitting -> has always existed, new grants now available.

Do you know anyone who has bought a bike from outside Ireland and got the tax break back?

FoxT

The Shinners have gotten a much higher vote than the greens. Now, the Greens aren't brilliant, but this is a scary proposition. If it comes down to it, Fianna Fail will work with anybody , including the shinners to stay in Govt. If the Greens are wiped in the next general election, expect to see a Shinner minister or two... a dire prospect.

Seth Brundle

FoxT wrote: »

The Shinners have gotten a much higher vote than the greens. Now, the Greens aren't brilliant, but this is a scary proposition. If it comes down to it, Fianna Fail will work with anybody , including the shinners to stay in Govt. If the Greens are wiped in the next general election, expect to see a Shinner minister or two... a dire prospect.

...but every cloud has a silver lining - expect the demise of SF following that coalition!

Tricity Bendix

FoxT wrote: »

The Shinners have gotten a much higher vote than the greens. Now, the Greens aren't brilliant, but this is a scary proposition. If it comes down to it, Fianna Fail will work with anybody , including the shinners to stay in Govt. If the Greens are wiped in the next general election, expect to see a Shinner minister or two... a dire prospect.

Judging by what happened to the PDs and whats happening to the Greens, Sinn Fein going into government with Fianna Fail could be great for the rest of us.

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

FYP

Can't argue with ya.

astrofool wrote: »

This is the problem, in order to be green, you need to sort out transport, and to do that you need to break the back of the unions in the transport industry. How they could have gone into government and expected to make a significant difference without tackling this, is beyond me. Build public transport, build cycle lanes, split the public bus and train companies up, so they are so split they are unrecognisable, and start from there. To get people to give up the car, this has to be done, public transport has to be better than driving, if they want to have any chance of reducing cars on the road.

Again, can't argue with that. Although, I would say that transport is widely acknowledged to be one of, if not the most difficult area to reduce emissions. Ireland's planning was such that we have built ourselves into private car dependency and low public-transport feasibility. Electric vehicles are going to have to play a large part in Ireland's transport solution.
I too am disappointed with the lack of action with public transport. Real-time displays are going in at bus stops etc but as you say, more needs to be done.

astrofool wrote: »

They haven't been able to do this, what they have done has alienated people (badly implemented VRT, undecipherable parking space tax), these hit people in the wallet and in their daily lives. It's no wonder they did so badly, esp. when they announce billions to be spent on cycling (I wonder will we all get a merc to follow us so we're safe from the buses).

I agree there has been too much stick and not enough carrot.

astrofool wrote: »

All their successes have been light fluffy nonsense that any party could have done, smart grid -> needed, big savings to the consumer and public. Renewables -> reduce our dependence on imported energy, generate jobs. Carbon tax -> in the pipeline in europe for years. Retrofitting -> has always existed, new grants now available.

No see this is where you lose me. You have to be fair. You're dismissing their achievements and being very one-sided.

I'm all for being clear where the Greens have failed but you just don't want to accept that they have achieved anything - and ignoring facts to this end.

astrofool wrote: »

Do you know anyone who has bought a bike from outside Ireland and got the tax break back?

No, but I don't see that as a problem, tbh. Everything in Ireland is overpriced and it's a much bigger issue than just the price of bicycles.

mike65

SF vote was pretty poor all things considered.

I_am_Jebus

Gormley, despite being a "green" Minister has continued to delay on making vital decisions on important issues.

For example, his Department is responsible for the protection of Natural Heritage. Check out the issues in relation to stopping turf cutting on bogs in Ireland and you will see that he's given up the green agenda and "the whats good for the country" mindset in order to facilitate FF country network of votes.

MoominPapa

Trevor Corish booted out in Dundrum - I'm happy

Tricity Bendix

mike65 wrote: »

SF vote was pretty poor all things considered.

Two seats (at least) gone in Dublin, in an election that favoured protest parties, when their former rivals for the protest vote are in power and have been abandoned by their supporters. They have to be disappointed.

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

No see this is where you lose me. You have to be fair. You're dismissing their achievements and being very one-sided.

I'm all for being clear where the Greens have failed but you just don't want to accept that they have achieved anything - and ignoring facts to this end.


No, but I don't see that as a problem, tbh. Everything in Ireland is overpriced and it's a much bigger issue than just the price of bicycles.

I think, what I'm really saying, is that any other party would have implemented a lot of these changes. They're mostly common sense, with little need for a lot of budget, and represent long term savings, so would end up being a net gain on the books. Another party would probably have handled it better. There is nothing majorly green they have achieved with any competence, and that is a sad legacy for a green party.

20goto10

20goto10 wrote: »

It's a disgrace what is happening to the Greens. The level of ignorance in voters is all too aparant once again. Why should the Greens be punished for what Fiana Fail have done? The Greens are coming up with some great initiatives. There is big money in Green economics and to just brush it all aside as unimportant is just plain ignorance.

Fine Gael and Labour...jesus christ talk about going from bad to worse.

LOL

Because GREEN ECONOMICS INVOLVES NAMA :mad:
Open your eyes:mad::mad::mad::mad:

LostinBlanch

Well whatever about the spin on here about thousands of Green jobs, after the results yesterday there is a need for 14 more Green jobs.

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

I think, what I'm really saying, is that any other party would have implemented a lot of these changes. They're mostly common sense, with little need for a lot of budget, and represent long term savings, so would end up being a net gain on the books. Another party would probably have handled it better. There is nothing majorly green they have achieved with any competence, and that is a sad legacy for a green party.

In relation to the Bike to Work scheme is aimed at people who wouldn't be buying online. Most online bikes involve a certain degree of assembly and that is people who are more into cycling and probably already have a bike. The people targeted with this scheme want to go into a shop, try out the bike etc etc. The two people I know only bought their bikes because of the scheme and both now commute to work on their bikes instead of motorbike/car before. As far as I'm concerned, the scheme is a success.

As for the implementation of "common sense" policies. Do you think it was common sense for our imported energy dependency to get to over 90%? Do you think it was common sense to build urban sprawl and low density. Do you think it was common sense to not invest in renewables or public transport? Well none of these things happened in the 1990s or 2000s and we're stuck with a pretty ****ty legacy. Dublin features in a number of EU studies as what NOT to do with urban development.

You say another party would handle it better but I seriously doubt it. Would Fine Gael held back from paying off the unions and public sector? I doubt it. The point is other parties haven't implemented these policies.

goldfishlover

they were supposed to be for more public transport, but dublin bus has seen massive cutbacks.

they went on and on about cleaning up politics, but got into bed with sleaze kings fianna fail, which was a terrible place to start, they even said nothing when bertie was making a show of himself in the tribunal

they have gone against all their principals of environment and morality

jmayo

I think Gormless should look at the positive side, they can now fit all their councillors into a Prius

I wonder when will smaller Irish parties realise they will never change ff.
It's a bit like the girl believing she will be the one to tame the wide boy.
It always ends in tears.

electrogrimey

turgon wrote: »

The very fact we had 2 by-elections was solely because of the greens.

Are you suggesting the Green Party killed Tony Gregory? :eek:

Ardent

Traumadoc wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqkoz7hmc1s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efinfacts%2Ecom%2Firelandbusinessnews%2Fpublish%2Farticle%5F1011169%2Eshtml&feature=player_embedded

from about 3.25 , for a good laugh.

then one year later: he was almost crying when Ahern announced his resignation.
then this:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0506/breaking48.htm



I think that many of us who voted for Greens expected they would never go into government with Fianna Fail.

My god, that's almost repulsive to watch. A few short months later from that speech and, to use an expression Gormley used there to describe McDowell, the Greens have become "more Fianna Fáil than the Fianna Fáilers themselves".

cyclopath2001

taconnol wrote: »

Green minister in Dept of Transport. As it is, they've made announcements of a significant target for EVs for 2010/2020. They also brought in the bike-to-work scheme and DCC has its first cycling engineer.

It's all optics. Did the Greens even ask the DoT to repeal or reform the 1998 regulations? One simple common-sense change, a ban on cars in in cycle tracks (except for access) could make an immediate improvement.

But no, there has to be a scheme, an officer, a grand project (the S2S), yet another study and a policy document on more studies.

I look forward to the photo opportunities when they open 'new' cycle tracks which are actually the ones originally built in 1998 and since tarmaced over.

Traumadoc

I have been fighting to get the HSE to participate in the Bike to work scheme for the last 6 months.
I emailed my TDs, Gormley ( and Andrews) did not even bother to reply.

Response from Labour:

Dear xxxxxx,

Thank your email in connect with the Bike to Work scheme.

Many government departments and in particular the Health Service Executive
have been slow to implement the scheme for their staff.
I have submitted the following parliamentary question to the Minister for
Health and Children. I will send you her reply as soon as I receive it
which should be some time next week.

"To ask the Minister for Health and Children if the HSE is participating in
the 'Bike to Work' scheme; to provide contat details for the section of the
HSE that is administering the scheme for HSE employees andif hs will make a
statement on the matter"

Ruairi Quinn TD
Labour Party Spokesperson for Education and Science
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2
01 618 3434
ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie
www.ruairiquinn.ie

Macha

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's all optics. Did the Greens even ask the DoT to repeal or reform the 1998 regulations? One simple common-sense change, a ban on cars in in cycle tracks (except for access) could make an immediate improvement.

I don't know - do you?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You're all just focusing on the negative and ignoring the postive. It's very easy to come to convenient conclusion when you ignore all the facts that don't fit into your view.

Traumadoc - your issue is with the civil service, not the Greens. The problem is the Dept of Finance (I assume you all expect the Greens to hold sway in there as well :rolleyes:)