Green Party been Wiped out locally

edanto

It's mostly that they have been bad at communicating what they've done.

From what I can see, they naively didn't realise how much work it would be to be in government. All of their efforts are on doing things, reacting to the various crises and I think that they thought their huge workrate and the good things that they are doing in government would speak for themselves.

For example, their rules to force local councilors to abide by development plans instead of just "having regard" to them might not sound like much, but could have a huge positive impact on our communities. But they do threaten vested interests and is one reason that there was a campaign against them.

Not just in the healthy competition sense, but whisperings and misrepresentations.... and their communications strategy wasn't robust enough to defend against that.

The party looks like a real mess at the minute, but I really like what they stand for - e.g. not taking any corporate donations and creating a sustainable economic system, so I'm going to try and volunteer with them and help them through this rough patch.

LostinBlanch

Edanto,

it's not about spin - it's about their complete and utter disregard for people who voted for them. People like myself who actually believed them when they said they were anti corruption and wanted to clean up politics. People who actually believed Gormley's Planet Bertie speech.

People who were shocked and dismayed at the rapidity of Gormley "going nativea nd becoming more FF than FF themselves". If those words sound familiar they are from Gormley's Planet Bertie speech where he slags off McDowell and the PDs for not saying anything about Berties appearances in the tribunal.

Volunteer all you like, but no amount of spin about lightbulbs or recycling cyclepaths or claiming credit for every job as a green job while ignoring all the other jobs that are disappearing at a rate of knots is going to make any difference to the fact that they have no legitimacy with the voters any more.

This current regime doesn't have any legitimacy in the eyes of the population - you can volunteer to try and help them spin that if you like. But I can't see it making any difference.

Of course, if you were able to persuade them to do the right thing by the country and pull out of government rather than stay in just to make sure they get their ministerial pensions then I would cheer you on.

astrofool

taconnol wrote: »

Imagine the outcry on here if it turned out that most of the bikes bought from the scheme were from the UK? Come on.

Ah yes, I forgot about all those bikes we manufacture here in Ireland.

As I said, it was a sop to the high street. Most people know that you get ripped off on the high street in Ireland, hence everybody going shopping up north, same for bikes.

edanto

Their manifesto was based on what they would accomplish if they became the government. From what I can see, they are cleaning up the areas of government that they have access to, Energy and Environment.

To get control of those areas, they had to concede on a lot of positions, that is because they have less than 10% control of the government. So, on some issues, like Shannon or Shell to Sea, I was outraged that they got into power and didn't act as I'd hoped.

Then, in time, I began to see the trade-off that they had to make. It sucks, it sucks big brown balls, but still the fact remains that they are in government and it's not their fault that the government is 90% Fianna Fail. The blame for that lies with the people that voted for FF.

With respect to your point about the PDs not saying anything in public about Bertie, I can't be sure why they didn't, but if I was FF, I would have made a decision at cabinet level for the government not to criticise Bertie publicly, which then becomes a binding government decision to which all members of the government must give public support (Article 28.4 of the constitution).

It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to see that same aspect of cabinet confidentiality has probably restrained the Greens from being as vocal in public as they have previously been.

I'm really enthused by the election results, particularly that Ganley didn't get in, as I think he's a snake, and also that Labour did so well, as I think they aren't half as corrupt as FF or FG.

If the government falls in the next few months, I think the Greens will be decimated. But if they finish off some more of their projects, and secure a good result from the renegotiationm, I would be glad to see them in the same coalition for another couple of years.

Imagine if FG/Labour had taken over in 2007 - imagine the blame that they would be getting now, causing a financial crisis, hundreds of thousands out of work.... this mess belongs to FF, and if the current circumstances force FF to accept Green policies into the core of their party then I think that will have a better effect on our future than the Green vote rising to even 10%.

There's just something about people in Ireland they will always vote FF. If you can't change that, why not change FF?

squonk

Why are my bin charges going up and up and what have the Greens done about it? since the charges were introduced they've gone from €5 up to €8 and now with an additional €110 service charge per year. There were Green councillors on Fingal CoCo for the past five years at least. How is charging people to hell for waste management promoting Green issues and heightening awareness of your cause and it's acceptance?

The problem is that with the way the Greens operate, you, as a member of the public get told 'This is happening..' and then you find that the effect of that policy is that it now costs you more to live because that policy was implemented.

Leaving aside the GP's eagerness to jump into coalition with FF and it's disregard for it's voters, many people I've talked to consider that their policies are costly and can't be supported in the current climate where a shortage of cash exists already. It doesn't do any good for people like Eamonn Ryan telling people that this or that policy will pay off in 15 years time. People now are only looking months ahead.. to see if they still have a job or not. The GP need to get real or face full collapse of their vote.

gcgirl

FF started this mess a long time ago giveaway budgets and what have you they bought 2 elections but what i am saying i value Health and Education over bloody bikes! Health and Education are extremly important i would like my kids to have the best but the government has ****ed that up for them!

Scofflaw

gcgirl wrote: »

They have done nothing but be Berti's And Biffo's Bitch!!

This kind of post adds absolutely nothing to discussion. This is a political discussion forum, not a toilet wall.

moderately,
Scofflaw

gcgirl

Scofflaw wrote: »

This kind of post adds absolutely nothing to discussion. This is a political discussion forum, not a toilet wall.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Sorry about that But i think the Greens have added nothing to Being in Government and for the past year i have or should i say my kids are and will be paying the price !!

LostinBlanch

Edanto

Look, they lied or were very disingenuous* about not going in with FF and now coming out with the old well we're <10% of govt and it's not our fault really so please don't blame us for propping up and adding legitimacy to a regime that stinks of corruption, incompetence, cronyism, gombeenism and whatever else you're having.

* I know some Green apologist is going to come out and say that they didn't lie or weren't disingenuous - but if that really was the case then why do so many of their (ex) voters feel so betrayed by them?

No matter what way you spin it the Greens have legitimised everything bad that FF stands for and are now tainted with it.

Macha

astrofool wrote: »

Ah yes, I forgot about all those bikes we manufacture here in Ireland.

As I said, it was a sop to the high street. Most people know that you get ripped off on the high street in Ireland, hence everybody going shopping up north, same for bikes.

I'm not talking about bikes manufactured here, I'm talking about business for local shops that sell them.

The issue of the high-street rip-off is a separate one.

squonk wrote: »

Why are my bin charges going up and up and what have the Greens done about it? since the charges were introduced they've gone from €5 up to €8 and now with an additional €110 service charge per year. There were Green councillors on Fingal CoCo for the past five years at least. How is charging people to hell for waste management promoting Green issues and heightening awareness of your cause and it's acceptance?

squonk, bin charges are based on the concept of the polluter pays. If you don't pay bin charges, everyone pays for them collectively and most likely, you will pay more than you do now. I acknowledge concerns over double taxation but I would point out that Ireland has some of the lowest levels of personal tax in the world. The only way our services have been kept going this long on such a low tax base is due to the windfall property tax. We have been spoiled during the Celtic Tiger and in future we will actually have to pay taxes proportional to the services we receive.

squonk wrote: »

The problem is that with the way the Greens operate, you, as a member of the public get told 'This is happening..' and then you find that the effect of that policy is that it now costs you more to live because that policy was implemented.

The difference is now you will be paying the real cost of how you live, rather than externalising it to the rest of society, other tax payers or future generations.

squonk wrote: »

Leaving aside the GP's eagerness to jump into coalition with FF and it's disregard for it's voters, many people I've talked to consider that their policies are costly and can't be supported in the current climate where a shortage of cash exists already. It doesn't do any good for people like Eamonn Ryan telling people that this or that policy will pay off in 15 years time. People now are only looking months ahead.. to see if they still have a job or not. The GP need to get real or face full collapse of their vote.

Investment in the future is vital, even now. And especially in renewable energy and grid upgrades.

LostinBlanch wrote: »

* I know some Green apologist is going to come out and say that they didn't lie or weren't disingenuous - but if that really was the case then why do so many of their (ex) voters feel so betrayed by them?

No, they were disingenuous. The whole Trevor Sargent thing of leading them into FF coalition and stopping being leader was odd.

LostinBlanch wrote: »

No matter what way you spin it the Greens have legitimised everything bad that FF stands for and are now tainted with it.

Total exaggeration.

edanto

Like most Green voters I know, I was shocked, and a bit peed off, when they went into govt with FF. But what were the other options?

A rainbow coalition with FG/Lab/GP/Ind? That option would have just had the numbers, but would have been too unstable, and doubtless crashed during the asset crisis.

Thankfully now, people are starting to blame FF for their policies during the boom. Not enough, in my view, and I think it's a pity that the GP are getting so much flak. But politically, I think the coalition was their best option in May 2007.

We all know what happened to the PDs and it could be argued that they were pulling FF to the right. FF, the masters of deception, have been able to spread a lot of blame and mistrust about the Greens, as they capitalise on the anger that the GP core felt about the initial coalition decision. Even though the GP are trying to pull FF in a more socialist direction.

Will the Greens recover at local level? Personally, I don't think it matters too much, as long as the ethos of sustainable economics becomes accepted by all in politics.

Akrasia

edanto wrote: »

Their manifesto was based on what they would accomplish if they became the government. From what I can see, they are cleaning up the areas of government that they have access to, Energy and Environment.

To get control of those areas, they had to concede on a lot of positions, that is because they have less than 10% control of the government. So, on some issues, like Shannon or Shell to Sea, I was outraged that they got into power and didn't act as I'd hoped.

Nope, it was because they insisted on getting into bed with FF without even having the balance of power. (the greens had no bargaining power because they could have announced that they were leaving government at any time and ff would have said "off ya go, we'll carry on without you"
They didn't make themselves indipsensible and so they had no real power.

edanto

Akrasia wrote: »

They didn't make themselves indipsensible and so they had no real power.

And now? (ie post by-election)

Their support is crucial, and far more important that that of the Independents or the PDs.

Mervatron

I have to laugh at all the people who say "I'll never vote for them again!" etc. etc. That is the most short-sighted, ignorant comment of all. So, even if they changed personel, policy, etc, you would never consider them ever again?

On a long enough timeline, with that outlook, you'd end up having no one to vote for in Irish politics.

edanto wrote: »

Will the Greens recover at local level? Personally, I don't think it matters too much, as long as the ethos of sustainable economics becomes accepted by all in politics.

Truth

LostinBlanch

edanto wrote: »

Like most Green voters I know, I was shocked, and a bit peed off, when they went into govt with FF.

Only a bit? That was good of you.

edanto wrote: »

But what were the other options?

Not jumping into bed with one of the dodgiest political figures in history. I am perfectly aware of the realpolitik, and the impatience Gormely et al felt at not getting their arses into ministerial mercs. But there are some lines you don't cross for me that one was jumping into bed with FF and de facto endorsing their corrupt behaviour. Taconnol may wish to think that this is exagerration but do the voters agree with him?

edanto wrote: »

A rainbow coalition with FG/Lab/GP/Ind? That option would have just had the numbers, but would have been too unstable, and doubtless crashed during the asset crisis.

One of the reasons that people are so angry with FF (and the Greens by proxy) is that they know that FF created the property bubble which exacerbated this mess we're in. FF and GP are in complete denial about this thinking taking "brave decisions" i.e. hitting the old and the sick and vulnerable is the reason for their unpopularity. They also are trying to spin rubbish like it's just a mid term kicking - no it's a lot more than that. Or that "every government in Europe" is getting hammered in the elections. Again not true.

edanto wrote: »

Thankfully now, people are starting to blame FF for their policies during the boom. Not enough, in my view, and I think it's a pity that the GP are getting so much flak.

No it's a pity that Gormely got into bed with FF. They are paying the price now and for their de facto endorsement of FF and their previous actions. If they weren't endorsing them then they wouldn't have gone into power with them.

edanto wrote: »

But politically, I think the coalition was their best option in May 2007.

How many people agree with you? Tom Kelly, an ex councillor in Trim doesn't. Here's what he said in today's Indo.

I saw it coming at me like a train and I told the powers that be but they weren't listening," he said. "They stopped listening when they went into Government ... I wanted them to walk out so many times because of different Budget issues. They're now holding on by their coat tails. I think they've became too fond of their ministerial positions.

edanto wrote: »

Will the Greens recover at local level?

I doubt it, not for a long time. But then again Gormley et al are safely esconsed in their ministerial mercs so don't give a damn.

If they really were interested in pushing forward the green agenda then they would pull out of goverment and start again. That would mean that they would at least have a chance to regain some credibility something that was their main selling point, moreso than any other political party. Without that they are lost, you can't buy credibility and no amount of press releases claiming credit for everything under the sun can give it back to you.

Akrasia

edanto wrote: »

And now? (ie post by-election)

Their support is crucial, and far more important that that of the Independents or the PDs.

Now its too late because the greens are too afraid to actually use that power for fear of their own destruction.

jmayo

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Edanto

Look, they lied or were very disingenuous* about not going in with FF and now coming out with the old well we're <10% of govt and it's not our fault really so please don't blame us for propping up and adding legitimacy to a regime that stinks of corruption, incompetence, cronyism, gombeenism and whatever else you're having.

* I know some Green apologist is going to come out and say that they didn't lie or weren't disingenuous - but if that really was the case then why do so many of their (ex) voters feel so betrayed by them?

No matter what way you spin it the Greens have legitimised everything bad that FF stands for and are now tainted with it.

It is not alone ex voters, it is ex members and most crucially ex party representatives that are totally pi**ed off and feel betrayed by gormless and Mr arrogant Ryan and the rest of ones supping at the trough of governmnet.

They sanctimouniously speak about what major good they are doing all they while backing FF as they cut educaiton spending for special needs, languages, etc and increase class sizes.

edanto wrote: »

Their manifesto was based on what they would accomplish if they became the government. From what I can see, they are cleaning up the areas of government that they have access to, Energy and Environment.

To get control of those areas, they had to concede on a lot of positions, that is because they have less than 10% control of the government. So, on some issues, like Shannon or Shell to Sea, I was outraged that they got into power and didn't act as I'd hoped.

Then, in time, I began to see the trade-off that they had to make. It sucks, it sucks big brown balls, but still the fact remains that they are in government and it's not their fault that the government is 90% Fianna Fail. The blame for that lies with the people that voted for FF....

"they had to concede on a lot of positions, "
You can say that again,although they did get to hang onto their low energy lightbulbs (which are more toxic to get rid of by the way) and the bicyle to work scheme. :rolleyes:

Yes the blame lies with FF, but just like the PDs before them they are kepeing the ff regime in power. They speak sometimes as if they are not in the f**king government :mad:
FF should be ostracised, but Gormley and the boys couldn't wait to get their ar**es in ministerial seats, and it was bertie they got inot bed with, don't forget now.

You are deluded if you think that FF will let GP implement their polices, they will let them implement the ones that bring extra money to the exchequer e.g carbon tax.
Then come next election the GP will carry the can since FF will state that they had to do it in porder to keep the GP in government.

When I see the GP spokesmen out speaking about the good things they are contributing to government I just see Maggie Simpson with the steering wheel pretending she is driving.
It is only when you zoom out your really see who is in control.

Another thing that really gets my back out is this sh**e where you see one of the big two arriving on a bicycle to work. It never shows the fact that there is a ministrial car with driver following behind, probably actually going inefficiently slower than normal.

LostinBlanch

jmayo wrote: »

It is not alone ex voters, it is ex members and most crucially ex party representatives that are totally pi**ed off and feel betrayed by gormless and Mr arrogant Ryan and the rest of ones supping at the trough of governmnet.

I know what you mean.

jmayo wrote: »

When I see the GP spokesmen out speaking about the good things they are contributing to government I just see Maggie Simpson with the steering wheel pretending she is driving.
It is only when you zoom out your really see who is in control.

Nice image, I may use that one in the future.

Anyway, I think most people know my views on them now so I think I'm going to finish contributing to this thread.

edanto

Likewise, I must be off as I've been on boards for far too long today and have a ton of things to do.

Thanks for explaining so well how you look at the Greens now. For me, I don't have the same sense of betrayal as I was never really an ardent Green, but have become more of a supporter since 2006 or so - and I think that might be important in how we see this differently.

I hope that you both (LostinBlanch & jmayo) find someone to vote for and support come the next election and that person has a green ethos if not a green jersey.

Seth Brundle

astrofool wrote: »

I think you're fighting a losing battle defending the Greens here, I thought at least one other person might be on your side by now.

On the bike scheme, it should have been implemented thusly:
Person buys a bike.
Person has receipt (verified independently if needed, like any tax audit).
Person fills in amount on their tax return, it's counted as a credit (up to €1000), and gets the tax back.
Person can't claim again for 5 years.

What happened was:
Person wants a bike
Person checks to see if their company is in the scheme (or if self employed, goes to the hassle of signing up to the scheme).
Person goes and finds the bike they want, haggles the price to whatever.
Person does not buy the bike.
Person goes to the company with the quote.
Company checks if the bike seller is on the approved list.
If not on the approved list, they try to get them added to the approved list.
Assume success, company applies for a voucher to that amount from the scheme.
Voucher arrives, person takes voucher and then buys the bike.
Company charges the employee in each salary (if they're on PAYE) until the bike is paid off.

Now, what kind of braindead moron do you think thought up that rigmarole?

I also don't understand you talking about specialist bikes, and having to assemble them. You can get fully assembled, out of the box, working bikes from the internet for far cheaper than you can get them on the high street in Ireland. You can even be an idiot with bikes in this case, and as a big +1 save the tax payer money.

Its a clever plan using the company! Now that the government have ballsed up the economy, the workforce is smaller and they now know thy will have less applications to process and lose less in tax rebates - very well thought out

taconnol wrote: »

Perception of safety is an issue. I say perception because it isn't backed up by the statistics. The irony is that if more people were to cycle, the roads would have less motorised vehicles and would be safer.

Only to a certain extent IMO as many motorists commute long distances and will not swap the motor for a pushbike. IMO by and large, those opting for this scheme live within a few miles of their place of work.

Macha

kbannon wrote: »

Only to a certain extent IMO as many motorists commute long distances and will not swap the motor for a pushbike. IMO by and large, those opting for this scheme live within a few miles of their place of work.

Firstly, approximately 1/3 of the commuting trips made into Dublin every day are less than 4 miles. This distance can be easily cycled. People are chosing to get into their cars - we need to make it a no-brainer to get on their bikes/bus/feet instead. If we get multi-modal transport working, people living even further away can combine cycling with another mode of transport. This means allowing bikes onto DART/Luas/Trains/Metro and providing sufficient parking facilities at modal hubs (this really is a pet hate of mine..!)

The difference in cycling's modal share between Amsterdam and Dublin is 30% vs 4%. Granted, some of that can be attributed to Dublin's urban sprawl but certainly not all of it.

We also (finally) have our first ever National Cycle Policy Framework, that doesn't just consist of the Biketowork scheme:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/11387-0.pdf

gimme5minutes

taconnol wrote: »

Firstly, approximately 1/3 of the commuting trips made into Dublin every day are less than 4 miles. This distance can be easily cycled. People are chosing to get into their cars - we need to make it a no-brainer to get on their bikes/bus/feet instead. If we get multi-modal transport working, people living even further away can combine cycling with another mode of transport. This means allowing bikes onto DART/Luas/Trains/Metro and providing sufficient parking facilities at modal hubs (this really is a pet hate of mine..!)

The problem we have here in Ireland is that it's always raining and alot of the people who wouldn't mind cycling to work on a bright sunny day are never gonna cycle several miles to work in the pissing rain. Doesn't matter how bad the traffic is they just won't cycle in the cold and rain. Just to add I have no problem cycling in the rain myself.

Macha

gimme5minutes wrote: »

The problem we have here in Ireland is that it's always raining and alot of the people who wouldn't mind cycling to work on a bright sunny day are never gonna cycle several miles to work in the pissing rain. Doesn't matter how bad the traffic is they just won't cycle in the cold and rain. Just to add I have no problem cycling in the rain myself.

Again, the weather in Ireland is not so different to that of the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Plus we have two advantages:
-much milder winters
-much flatter topography (Dublin is not built on a fjord like Oslo)

lostexpectation

edanto wrote: »

Likewise, I must be off as I've been on boards for far too long today and have a ton of things to do.

Thanks for explaining so well how you look at the Greens now. For me, I don't have the same sense of betrayal as I was never really an ardent Green, but have become more of a supporter since 2006 or so - and I think that might be important in how we see this differently.

I hope that you both (LostinBlanch & jmayo) find someone to vote for and support come the next election and that person has a green ethos if not a green jersey.

fan of ff?

edanto

lostexpectation wrote: »

fan of ff?

ROFLMAO

thanks I needed that.

Fianna Fáil have been responsible for our culture of planning and development corruption, been susceptible to the undue influence of developers when creating national economic policy and made reckless and bad-value deals when it comes to our infrastructure, national resources and healthcare.

I voted Green, and will again, to try and end that.

walshb

brianthebard wrote: »

If our pollution is tiny then that's all the more reason the abolish it-shouldn't be too hard if its so miniscule.

Do you really believe humans can live in a pollution free world?

I am all for trying to save and eliminate 'unnecessary' pollution, but some
of the ideas the Greens have been trying to force upon us are
ludicrous

No mater what is done, there will be some amount of pollution. It's
part and parcel of society, progress, economics, production and life.

In a lot of cases, pollution is part of nature and we as humans
are part of nature who contribute to it.

Jeez, if the greens had their way, they would probably ban cows from
earth, as cows pollute by farting!

edanto

walshb wrote: »

some of the ideas the Greens have been trying to force upon us are ludicrous

Not only did you come into this thread with no examples, other than a cow farting, but you proceed to take the p1ss out of Green policies.

Why don't you do some research about the policies that the Greens are actually promoting (you might find this page useful http://www.greenparty.ie/en/policies/discussion_documents), read them, have a think, and then come back with some decent arguments instead of the kind of facetious rubbish that the Sun prints.

There are 11 detailed policy documents at the address above, perhaps you will find positions in there to argue against and if so that's just great. But please don't be as lazy to just regurgitate the anti-green spin of someone else.

Just remember that the kind of things you read about the greens (bicycles/light bulbs/cows farting) are the things that it is nice and easy to joke about and ridicule. It's a lot harder to engage with a policy document and say something about it, so you it might take more time that you're prepared to give.

walshb

edanto wrote: »

Not only did you come into this thread with no examples, other than a cow farting, but you proceed to take the p1ss out of Green policies.

Why don't you do some research about the policies that the Greens are actually promoting (you might find this page useful http://www.greenparty.ie/en/policies/discussion_documents), read them, have a think, and then come back with some decent arguments instead of the kind of facetious rubbish that the Sun prints.

There are 11 detailed policy documents at the address above, perhaps you will find positions in there to argue against and if so that's just great. But please don't be as lazy to just regurgitate the anti-green spin of someone else.

Just remember that the kind of things you read about the greens (bicycles/light bulbs/cows farting) are the things that it is nice and easy to joke about and ridicule. It's a lot harder to engage with a policy document and say something about it, so you it might take more time that you're prepared to give.

Okay, the light bulb ban. There's one ludicrous example!

Freaking light bulbs:rolleyes:

Maybe the greens should travel to China and the States to see those massive
skyscrapers lit up like christmas trees. Now, there's where the change is needed.
Not a small domestic home in Ireland

TimHanley

Tell me this.

If only 2% of the population voted for these "greenies" how come they get so much media promotion. I mean everyday we are bombarded with greenie propaganda, we are being promised a carbin tax to "save the world". Wjhy not ask the people if they want a carbon tax by putting it to vote.

edanto

walshb, here's a quick one for ya. Roughly, what's the difference in carbon production per capita between the US and China? And if you think change is needed, how would you propose that we go about it? As in - how can you and I influence other governments? Is there any way other than influencing our own government first?

It's glaringly obvious that you didn't even look at the GP policy webpage, let alone read them or have a think about them.