To the 24.8% who gave Fianna Fail a first preference: Why ?

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

If you specify what law or even what code of conduct they broke in the lifetime of the current Government on the issue of maintaining power, perhaps we can deal with it.

I think that is what the various tribunals are trying to determine for people who are in the current govt, the fact that we need tribunals goes to show that there is something questionable to be answered

solice

solice wrote: »

I think that is what the various tribunals are trying to determine for people who are in the current govt, the fact that we need tribunals goes to show that there is something questionable to be answered

There is a tribunal about whether or not Cowen has a mandate to be Taoiseach?

Really?

News to me.

Tell 'em I'll spare 'em a bunch of money, I'll just read out the results of the last general election and a few Constitutional and legislative provisions about when a Dail needs to be dissolved and that should sort it all out.

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a tribunal about whether or not Cowen has a mandate to be Taoiseach?

Really?

You know exactly what I mean:rolleyes:

solice

solice wrote: »

You know exactly what I mean:rolleyes:

Yes.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with the general point, which was whether Cowen has a mandate. Legally, he has. It is not really open to debate.

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with the general point, which was whether Cowen has a mandate. Legally, he has. It is not really open to debate.

But it does raise another question related to the very topic of the thread, why would 24.8% of people who voted, vote for a party that is currently being investigated by tribunals for alleged miss conduct and whose leadership (Bertie Ahern) showed complete disregard for when being questioned?

gcgirl

Finally got word that my Daughters class is being pulled as from september! We have been fighting to try and save it for the last couple of months and had divised a plan between ourselves and a near by school that has been rebuffed by the Dept of misEducation so thanks to all you lovely FF supporters!!

paddyland

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with the general point, which was whether Cowen has a mandate. Legally, he has. It is not really open to debate.

If Brian Cowen sold this entire country to Mugabe for the price of a few FF pensions, you would still claim he has not broken any law, and has a legal mandate to continue in government.

How low do these FF vermin have to stoop before their sycophantic supporters, like the three monkeys, finally stumble in their blind adoration?

Does it displease you to debate the authority of this government to continue in office? It sure displeases me. It should be a no-brainer. They should be on the boat out of this country, in balls and chains.

Am I hysterical? You bet I am. I am a hair's breadth from greasing the pitchfork. That is the effect their hypocrisy has on ordinary, decent people. They don't even try to embrace the electorate any more. Their attitude is, you are either one of us, or screw you.

Today, a wipeout in the local elections. Tomorrow, a general election. Or else a complete breakdown in public order, which is what they are storing up. And they know it, too. We haven't seen the half of their grotesque legacy, yet.

***
Your answer will probably be something arrogant along the lines that I am wrong and you are right. Let me tell you, who is wrong and who is right is immaterial. What matters is that FF do not listen to their electorate no matter how right or wrong they are. The day is long gone since FF ever listened to anyone, regardless whether they agreed with them or not. THAT is one single very good reason why they should GO.

paddyland

paddyland wrote: »

If Brian Cowen sold this entire country to Mugabe for the price of a few FF pensions, you would still claim he has not broken any law, and has a legal mandate to continue in government.

How low do these FF vermin have to stoop before their sycophantic supporters, like the three monkeys, finally stumble in their blind adoration?

Mugabe? Pensions? Monkeys?

What are you on about?

For what it's worth, no they are not planning on selling vermin to Mugabe, or whatever point you were making.

paddyland wrote: »

Does it displease you to debate the authority of this government to continue in office? It sure displeases me. It should be a no-brainer. They should be on the boat out of this country, in balls and chains.

They were elected. Does that not count for anything? It displeases me that they are doing a bad job, certainly. But a little respect for democracy, please!

paddyland wrote: »

I am a hair's breadth from greasing the pitchfork. That is the effect their hypocrisy has on ordinary, decent people. They don't even try to embrace the electorate any more. Their attitude is, you are either one of us, or screw you.

The last line is just a cheap shot with no basis in fact.

It is not their attitude.

paddyland wrote: »

Your answer will probably be something arrogant along the lines that I am wrong and you are right. Let me tell you, who is wrong and who is right is immaterial.

Hold on a minute. Don't pretend to know my answer and then go off basing an argument on your incorrect prediction. I appreciate why one may be disgusted with the performance of the current Government. You will even find those who have voted FF year on year and did so last general election will agree with that. But, like it or not, they were elected. Do we just set that aside? Do we just tear up our Constitution and go for mob rule? The peope elected them, in the knowledge as to how long Governments last. Basic respect for democracy means respecting those wishes.

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

Hold on a minute. Don't pretend to know my answer and then go off basing an argument on your incorrect prediction. I appreciate why one may be disgusted with the performance of the current Government. You will even find those who have voted FF year on year and did so last general election will agree with that. But, like it or not, they were elected. Do we just set that aside? Do we just tear up our Constitution and go for mob rule? The peope elected them, in the knowledge as to how long Governments last. Basic respect for democracy means respecting those wishes.

I totally agree with you. Ther were elected in 2007 with the intention of serving a 5 year term.

But they were also elected on the basis of the promises they made, x number of jobs to be created, x number of new guards, x number of new hospital beds etc. They havent done that in the first 2 years of their term and considering Templemore is now closed to new entrants it is highly unlikely that they will be able to fulfill any of their election promises. Maybe that is the reason why we should have a General Election.

They were given a mandate based on their Manifesto, a manifesto they cant live up to.

solice

solice wrote: »

They were given a mandate based on their Manifesto, a manifesto they cant live up to.

I appreciate what you say, but this is what political parties do. I've said it before. The last time FG and Labour were elected to form a Government, they didn't promise in their manifesto that they would have us sending 30,000 or 40,000 overseas looking for work every year. They didn't say we'd be poorer than Chad. They didn't tell us that our economy could only sustain 800,000 jobs. They forgot to say that having a degree would be pretty useless. They didn't promise that they would tear rural Irish society apart by maintaining the strong legacy of mass migration. Yet that is what they did. But they were elected to serve a full term, they did so because that was democracy, and you know what, by the end of it they were almost getting things right...

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

by the end of it they were almost getting things right...

You just couldnt quiet bring yourself to say it

But what you are advocating is blatant lies? A Governement was elected on 2007 based on a set agenda of promises to the people of a country. Jump 2 years into the future and the country is in the grip of the biggest recession it has ever been in, partly due to global events, partly due to the governments incompetence over the past 12 years, despite repeated warnings from multiple sources. They cannot fulfill their election promises, the very basis for which they received a mandate, and you still think that they are entitled to serve the next three years because that is democracy.

Democracy is a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system. If the people want a general election then that is what the people want and that is putting the power into the hands of the people. That is democracy.

Brian Cowen insisting that he is going to carry on for the next 3 years is "temporary dictatorship".

solice

solice wrote: »

You just couldnt quiet bring yourself to say it

Almost!

solice wrote: »

But what you are advocating is blatant lies?

Politician in lying shocker?

I am not advocating blatant lies at all, it's the way things are. And the alternative is anarchy. Every time a politician has to make an unpopular decision which wasn't clearly signalled by them before the election, that Government gets turfed out of office? Should McCain now get his chance in office in the US because Obama did a uturn within weeks of pledging to use courts for Guantanemo suspects?

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

I am not advocating blatant lies at all, it's the way things are. And the alternative is anarchy. Every time a politician has to make an unpopular decision which wasn't clearly signalled by them before the election, that Government gets turfed out of office? Should McCain now get his chance in office in the US because Obama did a uturn within weeks of pledging to use courts for Guantanemo suspects?

Not at all, not when the intent is still there to live up to a significant portion of the promises made.

But there is no intention to honour the 2007 manifesto. The government cannot possibly live up to its promises as it doesnt have the resources. It cannot honour the agreement that it made with all the people that voted for it. To borrow a line, all has changed, changed utterly.....

This raises another question directly related to the original post. How could anyone vote for a government party that is incapable of living up to its previous election manifesto, only 2 years into term?

T runner

solice wrote: »

Not at all, not when the intent is still there to live up to a significant portion of the promises made.

But there is no intention to honour the 2007 manifesto. The government cannot possibly live up to its promises as it doesnt have the resources. It cannot honour the agreement that it made with all the people that voted for it. To borrow a line, all has changed, changed utterly.....

This raises another question directly related to the original post. How could anyone vote for a government party that is incapable of living up to its previous election manifesto, only 2 years into term?

That goes for almost every government party in the world. By your logic every government should resign!

Incidently, had FG made power they would also be incapable of living up to their manifesto (inc 4% growth). Would you now be telling them to resign? I doubt it.

Daragh101

Deleted User wrote: »

Almost!



Politician in lying shocker?

I am not advocating blatant lies at all, it's the way things are. And the alternative is anarchy. Every time a politician has to make an unpopular decision which wasn't clearly signalled by them before the election, that Government gets turfed out of office? Should McCain now get his chance in office in the US because Obama did a uturn within weeks of pledging to use courts for Guantanemo suspects?

ive never heard such sh1te.............trying to compare FF to obama is crazy!!! Obama hasnt ****1d up the states, where as on the other hand FF has!!!
And dont try and say its a "global recession" , some of the decisions FF have made while in gov over the last couple of years are horific!!

paddyland

It's gone way beyond simply party politics, those who support FF, and those who support FG and/or others. This time FF in, next time FG/Labour, and so on, round in circles.

Democracy is one thing. But when the elected government stir up such public revulsion, such barely contained anger, such borderline anarchy, then something is seriously wrong.

If it were simply public apathy, then the government might see out their term, and we might all moan and groan, and at the end of the day, put up with things.

This is fundamentally different. FF right now are a hairline from the pitchforks. They are widely seen to support and promote people who have raped and pillaged this country. As a result, they are seen, rightly or wrongly, as the reason why a whole generation are going to be dispossessed of their livelihoods, with no hope of recuperation in their lifetime.

They are arrogant to the point of almost soviet style dictatorship. Anything is game ball that can be argued towards their remaining in power. They listen to nobody, either expert or simple Joe Public electorate. Brian Cowen resents anyone who questions his authority. They behave like a starved and beaten wolf, baying in a corner.

They reserve the right to power, no matter what their track record or how any of their number behave. They have become a monstrous, masonic style institution, who genuinely believe in the reservation of rights over the country to themselves and their party. It is a cold night on the tiles for everyone else.

They have lost all connection to any original aspirations they may have had, or to the real world. Existence for it's own sake. They need a great big shaking, and a few terms out of office, to let the poisoned old guard die out, and a period of genuine reflection for the new generation.

Darragh29

achtungbarry wrote: »

I want to understand the mindset of the the 24.8% who still feel that FF deserve to be in power.

Because they is stupid stupid stupid....

Daragh101

Darragh29 wrote: »

Because they is stupid stupid stupid....

i totally agree!!!

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

The general point you make is correct. FF must take some of the blame for the particular predicament we are in.

They ABSOLUTELY refuse to even ACKNOWLEDGE that they should take some of the blame, let alone TAKE the blame!

"We are unpopular because we are taking tough-but-right decisions" :rolleyes:

No ye're f**king not - on BOTH counts!

Darragh29

Daragh101 wrote: »

i totally agree!!!

FF I think is a cult that David Koresh would have been proud of. You see people who feel slated by the party when it comes to things like nominations, but they continue to profess blind faith to the party!?!?! I have more respect for the people who were in FF, didn't get nominated because of the corrupt selection process which is now operated by party headquarters as opposed to the old local selection process at Cumman level and then dropped the party and went on to get elected on an independent ticket.

As a party, they are now completely and utterly rudderless, calling for "huge change" within the party, calling again for a "state of the nation" address. Well surely change should start at the top, if there are huge problems within the party that require huge change, then surely the party leader is ultimately responsible for those problems.

Ultimately they are a party of absolute cowards, like servants who were nervous around the infamous Queen Mary, afraid to look her in the eye in case they were beheaded for stepping on the wrong floorboard in her presence.

paddyland

paddyland wrote: »

FF right now are a hairline from the pitchforks.

I think that is just hysteria.

I say FF are a hairline from seeing a big vote for FG at the next general election. You say pitchforks.

Let's revisit this thread every six months and see which, between your revolution and bloodshed or my swing to FG, predictions prove more accurate

jmayo

It is unrealistic to believe that any party in government could have lived up to it's election manifestos from 2007, but FF have consistenty made the wrong decisions and belately even then.

How anyone is deluded enough to believe that our problems are due to global downturn, credit crunch or subprime derivatives is comical and either shows complete eejits with blind faith in party pronouncements or pretty clever people trying to deflect blame from their cronies, often benefactors, by stating these points as facts often enough for the gullible voters to believe it.

Our problems are due to fact that the country's ecopnomy was based on us as a people selling houses and appartments to each other.
Sooner or later that type of bubble economy falls apart and external influences may be a trigger but not the real cause of the collapse.

FF were the main party of government that faciliated this bubble economy, in most poeple's eyes to feather the nests of their supporters.
The banks lent recklessly and they have come crashing back to earth.
Even worse the government based their spending on transactional taxes from this bubble economy.
Now the market has crashed resulting in thousands becoming unemployed.

Added to this the global eocnomy tanked and this has a knock on affect on real industries, which were in trouble already because of our overly high cost base once again due primarily to the housing bubble.

This sh** that nobody expected this is grade A bullsh***.
Enough analysts, commentators, politicans and ordinary people saw the lunacy, but they were told shut up and ignored.
The IMF was issuing warnings but they were all told the fundamentals were sound.
I would like to tattoo that mantra with a nail gun on the ars* of a few well known and well heeled politicans and bankers.

Even worse was to come becuase the party then has gone out of it's way to facilitiate the bankers (particularly the dodgest, most inept, most devious ******).

Anglo in years to come will have a bad connotation for most Irish people and it won't be with regards to our years of oppression from our Anglo Saxon neighbours.

We will have a lot to celebrate come 2016 or 2021.
100 years as our own masters and what have we got ?
- an economy run by and for the connected few (friends of FF),
- decades and millions of Irish having to take a boat or plane to find a better life, soon to be repeated no doubt
- a legacy of 60 odd years or child abuse perpetrated by our moral guardants, the church, with the tacit faciliation of our state education and criminal system.
- a health system that costs billions but yet allows the old, the young and the weak suffer with neglect and die.

Long live the banana republic.

Lockstep

I still get amazed at how often Enda Kenny's personality gets brought up.

Why is charisma viewed as so important? Would he be a better taoiseach if he got a new haircut and a Hawaiian shirt?

Irish voting sways baffle me.

K-9

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I still get amazed at how often Enda Kenny's personality gets brought up.

Why is charisma viewed as so important? Would he be a better taoiseach if he got a new haircut and a Hawaiian shirt?

Irish voting sways baffle me.

It is stupid, but this time he's up against Cowen so it evens out. Less of the thumbs up and backslapping and he'd be likeable.

Daragh101

charisma???? see where thats got us!!!(bertie)

PrincessLola

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am genuinely interested in the "why" people would continue to vote this party.

Lord knows.:( I know this isn't politically correct but maybe they're just stupid?? FF are basically a bunch of crooks, all of them, partly due to being in power for too long but mainly because they're basically a bunch of crooks.
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

paddyland

There are two types of people in this country.

Those who have some modicum of morals, of standards, of the value of a life lived reasonably wholesomely and equitably, who have some awareness of their neighbour in life.

And there are those who can be bought. Who have a price.

FF, the Bertie Party, name your price!

994

Deleted User wrote: »

I appreciate what you say, but this is what political parties do. I've said it before. The last time FG and Labour were elected to form a Government, they didn't promise in their manifesto that they would have us sending 30,000 or 40,000 overseas looking for work every year. They didn't say we'd be poorer than Chad. They didn't tell us that our economy could only sustain 800,000 jobs. They forgot to say that having a degree would be pretty useless. They didn't promise that they would tear rural Irish society apart by maintaining the strong legacy of mass migration. Yet that is what they did. But they were elected to serve a full term, they did so because that was democracy, and you know what, by the end of it they were almost getting things right...

Um, that was 1995-97, right? I was only a child at the time, but I don't recall riots and cannibalism. And it is quite pathetic to say, "shur dem bastards ar no better, vote for Mikey Joe Paddy Junior and he'll fix many a pothole, never mind dem croissant-atin' Prods".

994

994 wrote: »

And it is quite pathetic to say, "shur dem bastards ar no better, vote for Mikey Joe Paddy Junior and he'll fix many a pothole, never mind dem croissant-atin' Prods".

That's a very perceptive post.

All people who voted FF obviously did it for reasons involving croissants and Protestants. Well done.

PrincessLola wrote: »

maybe they're just stupid??

Or maybe they were just 'stupid' in the local elections for not voting FF?

Or maybe some of us looked at what had happened in this country since 1990, say like that whole small issue of the civil war that had taken thousands of lives in the North, and felt that yes FF had done a good job there, or even that the economy had gone from sustaining 800,000 jobs to 1,800,000 jobs and thought again that had some merit. Maybe you are not smarter than 40% (or 25% in locals) of the voting population, even if you think you are.

994

994 wrote: »

Um, that was 1995-97, right?

No, you are quite wrong. Check your history and when the last time this country voted a FG/Labour government at an election and get back to us.

994 wrote: »

And it is quite pathetic to say, "shur dem bastards ar no better, vote for Mikey Joe Paddy Junior and he'll fix many a pothole, never mind dem croissant-atin' Prods".

That's a very perceptive post.

All people who voted FF obviously did it for reasons involving croissants and Protestants. Well done. From someone who seems to be completely ignorant of election history and Governments of this country too...

PrincessLola wrote: »

maybe they're just stupid??

Or maybe they were just 'stupid' in the local elections for not voting FF?

Or maybe some of us looked at what had happened in this country since 1990, say like that whole small issue of the civil war that had taken thousands of lives in the North, and felt that yes FF had done a good job there, or even that the economy had gone from sustaining 800,000 jobs to 1,800,000 jobs and thought again that had some merit. Maybe you are not smarter than 40% (or 25% in locals) of the voting population, even if you think you are.