To the 24.8% who gave Fianna Fail a first preference: Why ?

Yoda

brolly wrote: »

I vote Fianna Fáil primarily because of the local candidates we have, the quality of our local TD's and because I think they are doing their very best in a difficult time to get employment etc back to Ireland.

Those are good reasons.

As for your points on honesty and being well educated, I believe many of them are.

Not the ones in the Dáil, I fear.

its just not that easy to make justifications when the majority of fellow posters are anti-FF!

As, indeed, am I. I think them a disgrace. Not one of them is a statesman. I think they have kept power by abusing the Irish people, feeding a policy of cronyism that keeps REAL politics out of the minds of the electorate.

Brolly

Yoda wrote: »

Those are good reasons.

Not the ones in the Dáil, I fear.

As, indeed, am I. I think them a disgrace. Not one of them is a statesman. I think they have kept power by abusing the Irish people, feeding a policy of cronyism that keeps REAL politics out of the minds of the electorate.

I continue my support for Fianna Fáil because of the reasons I mentioned. I am by no means a huge Cowan fan...I like many other Fianna Fáil members would prefer a change of leadership. And yes, I am not happy at some decisions which the Government made in budgets etc. However, that doesn't take away from the support for my local candidates as they are honest hard working people.

nacho libre

Elmo wrote: »

But this is not Corruption it is policy. Corruption is when your polices are paid for by people with money. e.g. Ray Burke and Century Radio.

I think during the boom years we all thought that it would last. so he could have done A, B or C and he still wouldn't be corrupt. All ministers will have advisors and civil servant to tell them what to do.

I don't vote FF, but I took up the SSIA.

I had an SSIA account too.
I wasn't suggesting he was corrupt rather that much of the blame should perhaps be focused on incompetent civil servants whose job it was to advise him. I think Cowan is a principled guy.
The difference between him and his predecessor is; if Ahern was still in power i bet he would have forestalled the levies until after the local elections because he was a slimy populist. if Cowen had done this i think the vote for Fianna Fail, while bad, would not have been severe as it has been in these elections. I do believe Cowen sacrificed his own popularity for the bigger picture. Of course too many people he and other senior Fianna Fail figures are solely to blame for the mess we are in which necessitated these harsh measures having to be taken. As i said at the start i'm merely questioning whether his advisers in the ministry of finance are as much to blame for not forseeing the crisis happening due to our over reliant on the building sector for prosperity. of course it's easy for laypeople to be great generals in hindsight but you would think these well- paid civil servants, with their high IQs and financial expertise, should have anticipated we were heading for disaster.

Elmo

Yoda wrote: »

As, indeed, am I. I think them a disgrace. Not one of them is a statesman. I think they have kept power by abusing the Irish people, feeding a policy of cronyism that keeps REAL politics out of the minds of the electorate.

I wonder how many people here voted for FF in the 2007 election. To be quite honest people were happy to fall in line, they saw how FF ran the last general election, they ran a very very good election as did FG.

Bertie acting the gurrier, Cowen acting the bully and Martin and Dempsey being a smooth as usual.

bmaxi

Elmo wrote: »

Well voting FG and giving them a golden spoon doesn't show that.

I am not a supporter of FG. My view is, if you hire someone to do a job and they make a fcuk up of it you don't keep hiring them hoping they'll get it right, you get someone else. If you catch someone dipping into the till, you don't punish them by giving them the keys to the safe. Let's see what the others have to offer and if they don't measure up, throw them out.
Two words grate on me when it comes to politics, "safe seat", there should be no safe seats for anybody.

Elmo

nacho libre wrote: »

I had an SSIA account too.
I wasn't suggesting he was corrupt rather that much of the blame should perhaps be focused on incompetent civil servants whose job it was to advise him. I think Cowan is a principled guy.

I don't think you can fully blame the Civil Servants. Cowen had how many external advisors?

The civil servants are there to ultimately in act policy from the cabinet, and they advise the government how they can do that.

The SSIA may have saved the country an extra year out of recession for all we know.

Elmo

bmaxi wrote: »

I am not a supporter of FG. My view is, if you hire someone to do a job and they make a fcuk up of it you don't keep hiring them hoping they'll get it right, you get someone else. If you catch someone dipping into the till, you don't punish them by giving them the keys to the safe. Let's see what the others have to offer and if they don't measure up, throw them out.
Two words grate on me when it comes to politics, "safe seat", there should be no safe seats for anybody.

Grand but they are the same party and they will do the same thing why did so many people vote for the easy alternative?
In part that is due to Labour not putting candidates up in certain areas but it does not remove the fact that the majority of people have turned towards FG. FG could end up with a majority in the next election. Same Old Same Old. It is infuriating.

Liam Byrne

Elmo wrote: »

Grand but they are the same party and they will do the same thing

They're not the same party. Similar, yes. Middle-ground that reflects the majority of Irish people, yes. The same, no.

Elmo wrote: »

FG could end up with a majority in the next election. Same Old Same Old. It is infuriating.

What the hell has you so fixated that FF are the same as FG ?

Until such time as FG has 2 leaders who are embroiled in controversy and corruption, until 3 or 4 of their guys are investigated by tribunals (with at least one or two being jailed and the others inexplicably getting off scot-free) until FG hoodwink the electorate and screw 3 generations, and until FG have a host of incompetent ministers that they don't subsequently fire and arrogantly gloss over their ****-ups, there is ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS to imply that it would be "more of the same".

K_user

Just kinda hopping in here…

I voted FF, mainly because I know the local candidate. He’s a hard working man and will do his best for the community. My second choice was to a Labour woman, for the same reasons. I’d like to see the best person get the job, rather than petty party name mud slinging.

But getting back to the OP’er, isn’t this country still a democracy?
Surely it is a basic right in a republic to choose who you vote for?

And the topic title itself is deliberately antagonising. Suggesting that the person is “anti FF” in the first place and therefore bias in their opinion?

What interests me is major backtracking of the “anti FF” people that I’ve spoken to over the past few years. They used to be very quick to point out that the Irish economic boom had little to do with FF policies and everything to do with the growing world markets. Those same people are now blaming FF for the current climate and brushing off the idea that it might be caused by an international crisis.

Can’t have it both ways people…

SaturnV

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Plus, who would you trust with moving forward ? The idiots that created the mess or the people who - had the electorate not fallen for the bull**** the last time out - might have heeded the early warnings, or avoided the self-inflicted aspects of it, or might have avoided signing up to bail out corrupt bank directors - and left us with ONLY the "international" stuff that FF seem to be keen to blame ALL of our economic issues on ?

FG might have done something differently, but never really showed any signs that they would have. So, basically, the voter is left having to choose between a party that definitely has made mistakes, and a party might not have made mistakes, but also might have done worse.

This is the thing I have a problem with personally. People seem to want to punish FF, but even if you exiled all the government parties to hell, that wouldn't undo what has been done. So you have to go on what the parties are likely to do in the future. You look at what FF did in the last 10 years to try see what they will do in the future, but how do you know what FG will do? They might do better, but they might do worse. Why do people still vote FF? because it's not that straight forward a choice.

It's interesting to note that everyone is framing the discussion as FG vs FF. What about the other parties? That, I think, relates to a deeper problem with Irish politics...

Liam Byrne

SaturnV wrote: »

So, basically, the voter is left having to choose between a party that definitely has made mistakes, and a party might not have made mistakes, but also might have done worse.

I'm not certain that the word "mistakes" applies - I think it was their ethos. but aside from that, you've put the word "might" in italics twice, without putting ANY emphasis the definitely has made mistakes

It's blatantly obvious that you give the benefit of the doubt to whoever HASN'T f**ked up on a royal scale and condoned incompetence and corruption.

SaturnV wrote: »

So you have to go on what the parties are likely to do in the future. You look at what FF did in the last 10 years to try see what they will do in the future,

Given their arrogance in not even acknowledging that the referendum isn't on their tough decisions AFTER the crash, but a referendum on their contribution to CREATE the crash, they're not likely to learn or improve. So the answer there is "more of the same crap".

SaturnV wrote: »

Sobut how do you know what FG will do? They might do better, but they might do worse.

Given the choice of a a doubt versus a certainty, I'd go with the doubt.

BTW, on behalf of the 75% or so that voted on Friday......(with thanks and acknowledgements to Dermot Morgan & Co)

SaturnV

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm not certain that the word "mistakes" applies - I think it was their ethos. but aside from that, you've put the word "might" in italics twice, without putting ANY emphasis the definitely has made mistakes

Well, show me a government, anywhere in the world, that hasn't definitely made mistakes. I apologise that I was putting emphasis on the point I was trying to make, as opposed to the point you want to make.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's blatantly obvious that you give the benefit of the doubt to whoever HASN'T f**ked up on a royal scale and condoned incompetence and corruption.

What do you do if you have a non-FF candidate who has f**ked up in their job on the local council. Who gets the higher preference, them or the FF candidate who was good at their job? What about the likes of Sinn Fein and Libertas. Many people have very good reasons for distrusting those parties, but they haven't "f**cked up", because they haven't had a chance to. So then how do you choose?

I'm not a FF supporter, by the way, and not a FG supporter, but I also think it is unfair to criticize those that do vote any given way, because it's never as simple as you are making out.

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Until such time as FG has 2 leaders who are embroiled in controversy and corruption, until 3 or 4 of their guys are investigated by tribunals (with at least one or two being jailed and the others inexplicably getting off scot-free) until FG hoodwink the electorate and screw 3 generations, and until FG have a host of incompetent ministers that they don't subsequently fire and arrogantly gloss over their ****-ups, there is ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS to imply that it would be "more of the same".

I thought when some tax men came looking for a few quid off Garrett a few years ago they found that all the property they thought was his was actually owned by his estate agent son. (All perfectly above board and legal ofcourse in fine fine gael fashion, no tribunals for us old boy!)

T runner

SaturnV wrote: »

Well, show me a government, anywhere in the world, that hasn't definitely made mistakes. I apologise that I was putting emphasis on the point I was trying to make, as opposed to the point you want to make.
[/I].

There wasnt that much difference between the economic policies in Iceland and GB. The currency was a big difference I guess. Now Icelandic government party politicians can only leave their abodes wearing Ned kelly type head gear. What are the opposition thinking? What do you think! Thank F**k we arent the ones in the headgear!

Labour in Britain seem to have made "serious mistakes" also as are many other countries.

One take might be that the actual mistakes being made by governments around the world were no more numerous or major than at any other time. It is the consequences this time that are massive.

cm2000

I gave my first preference to Eibhlin Byrne, second to Eoin Ryan. The main reason for my Byrne vote was that when I saw her in an TV appearance I thought she was the most reasoned, thoughtful and promising candidate. I don't know much about Ryan but that vote was based on my knowledge of the polls. I knew Byrne wouldn't win and that it was between Ryan, Crazy Left 1 and Crazy Left Terrorist sympathiser 2. Now say what you like about Fianna Fail but two hard line socialists, one of whom is part of Sinn Fein, the most corrupt and horrific parties in Europe, they are Ireland's political equivalent of Hezbollah.

I don't buy into the Fianna Fail = the Devil argument. The EMU has contracted by 5% this year. Spain has a 17% unemployment rate. The Labour Party in the UK's vote has been equally decimated. The vast majority of the Economic crisis is international. The fiscal position is something they're more culpable for.

However, no political party has foreseen this. All parties foresaw a 4% growth rate, such that Fine Gael/Labour had a “no matter what” spending plan. Remember their contract nonsense? Would they implement health insurance for all under 16s in a fiscal crisis? Rubbish. They all wanted to further fuel a property boom by cutting stamp duty.

The Labour Party particularly sickens me. They are the most disingenuous major party in the state. They have opposed every fiscal measure to cut spending or raise taxes. They have given the electorate the image that you can escape a fiscal crisis without sacrifice.

Fine Gael is OK, just OK, slightly worse than Fianna Fail in my opinion. I don't see any massive talent there. Similarly they have opposed any cuts that the government has made. They want to rationalise the public service which I think is great. But I want to know exactly which 20/30000 people they will fire! The opposition has been cowardly, opportunistic and populist during the crisis.

gcgirl

Special Needs classes being withdrawn are only saving 7 million where as the Anglo is getting Billions pumped in to it, When your kids are affected by what FF have done to this country come back to me but as far as i am concerned they have Majorly missmanaged funds and are very arrogant and are not in touch with the ordinary person!

cm2000

gcgirl wrote: »

Special Needs classes being withdrawn are only saving 7 million where as the Anglo is getting Billions pumped in to it, When your kids are affected by what FF have done to this country come back to me but as far as i am concerned they have Majorly missmanaged funds and are very arrogant and are not in touch with the ordinary person!

would you let Anglo Irish Bank fail?

kippy

gcgirl wrote: »

Special Needs classes being withdrawn are only saving 7 million where as the Anglo is getting Billions pumped in to it, When your kids are affected by what FF have done to this country come back to me but as far as i am concerned they have Majorly missmanaged funds and are very arrogant and are not in touch with the ordinary person!

No doubt.
But as mentioned many times here, this was a local election and for me it was for the guys who did the most on the ground for the people who vote for them. In my case the best guy with the best record just happens to be FF. I didnt want to punish him for the mistakes of colleague as he himself had done a fine job in his 5 years in local politics.
I aint a FF voter/sympathiser, but I wont not vote for someone because they are a member of the party either.

gcgirl

cm2000 wrote: »

would you let Anglo Irish Bank fail?

They are completely failing my daughter at the moment !

The golden Circle have walked away without paying a cent
They owned 300,000.000

cm2000

gcgirl wrote: »

They are completely failing my daughter at the moment !

The golden Circle have walked away without paying a cent
They owned 300,000.000

I noticed you didnt answer my question. For the record I don't agree with that cut, it was petty and unnecessary. We either prop up Anglo or we let it fail. which would you do?

gcgirl

Its a builders bank that has not loaned a cent since last yr!

drop it!

Fromvert

To the OP the reason I would say people voted for Fianna Fail is not because they support FF it would be more to do with that this was local elections and you vote for the person who does the most for your constituent not the party they are affiliated to.

cm2000

gcgirl wrote: »

Its a builders bank that has not loaned a cent since last yr!

drop it!

Drop it? for the percentage of bad loans the bank has there are over 64 billion euro in good loans. Anglo Irish Bank is so big and integrated with all sectors of Irish business that a failure of it would be absolutely catastrophic for the country. If you want to know what a failure of a big integrated bank has on an economy have a look at Lehmans.

gcgirl

one of the previous FF cllrs was a self serving crook ! FF has not been good to the land of GC!!

Elmo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

They're not the same party. Similar, yes. Middle-ground that reflects the majority of Irish people, yes. The same, no.

What the hell has you so fixated that FF are the same as FG ?

Until such time as FG has 2 leaders who are embroiled in controversy and corruption, until 3 or 4 of their guys are investigated by tribunals (with at least one or two being jailed and the others inexplicably getting off scot-free) until FG hoodwink the electorate and screw 3 generations, and until FG have a host of incompetent ministers that they don't subsequently fire and arrogantly gloss over their ****-ups, there is ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS to imply that it would be "more of the same".

So FF without the Corruption :rolleyes:

cm2000

gcgirl wrote: »

one of the previous FF cllrs was a self serving crook ! FF has not been good to the land of GC!!

oh you dont want to debate the issue you brought up...

kippy

gcgirl wrote: »

one of the previous FF cllrs was a self serving crook ! FF has not been good to the land of GC!!

I am sure you've been hit hard by the recent bad times. However you do need to understand why FF have managed to get almost a quarter of the first preference votes. They do have people who do work on the ground. That is how I vote in the local elections and I would hope others would vote on that merit also.
As I said theres zero point in not voting for a guy who is FF, just because he is FF. What if the other choices are a idiots? Would you pick them over a proven deliverer of projects and help to his constituents?
I wouldnt vote in a self serving crook no matter what party he was with, and believe me they can be in ANY party, NONE are perfect.
National politics is a different kettle of fish alright.

Elmo

cm2000 wrote: »

oh you dont want to debate the issue you brought up...

What is CG?

gcgirl

cm2000 wrote: »

Drop it? for the percentage of bad loans the bank has there are over 64 billion euro in good loans. Anglo Irish Bank is so big and integrated with all sectors of Irish business that a failure of it would be absolutely catastrophic for the country. If you want to know what a failure of a big integrated bank has on an economy have a look at Lehmans.

A why does it have bad loans if it was regulated like it should have been and the goverment were not creating a false economy bumping up house prices making it hard for 1st time buyers and investers making a mint and there for a lot of my generation are stuct with negative equity even the ones that have spilt up cant sell and have to still live under same roof as their ex's cos they cant afford to do anything else! Anglo is intergrated in to the Building industry as for Lehmans are you sure your not Berti? He would have blamed them for the Dubs losing today if they had of lost!

cm2000

Elmo wrote: »

What is CG?

huh