To the 24.8% who gave Fianna Fail a first preference: Why ?

Liam Byrne

K_user wrote: »

Going back to my point from a few pages back...

What interests me is major backtracking of the “anti FF” people that I’ve spoken to over the past few years. They used to be very quick to point out that the Irish economic boom had little to do with FF policies and everything to do with the growing world markets. Those same people are now blaming FF for the current climate and brushing off the idea that it might be caused by an international crisis.

Can’t have it both ways people…

Here we go again....toe-ing the bull**** party line - that ALL of the current woes are down to external factors.

The FACTS are that both were partly external, and partly down to policies.

HOWEVER, when FF decided to piggyback on the international stuff and "create" the Celtic Tiger, they did so with half-assed and unsustainable policies, a lack of regulation and cronyism and payoffs.

And as a direct result of that the crash has been WAYYYY worse than it should have been.

blinding

Boston wrote: »

I've never voted for a party in my life.

Would it be a good idea for you to vote for a political party that you consider the least corrupt.

For evil(corruption) to prosper it is necessary for good men/ women to do nothing.

Corruption has prospered in Ireland because good men/women have not done enough to put a stop to it.

DJDC

What threads like this prove is that there is no point in trying to reason with core FFers. They make up 20-25% of the electorate and that percentage is not going to decrease anytime soon. As I said before its a mindset determined from a young age not a rational choice.

The key issue is the next 10-15% of the voting population who decide whether FF get enough votes to form a government. In Dublin it seems FF is devasted but in large swathes of rural Ireland, FF are still managing to get 40% of the votes. I really don't think anyone can write them out of the next GE yet. For many rural voters, voting anything other than FF would be heresy.

blinding

K_user wrote: »

Did you know that O'Connell Street Dublin was found to be one of the most expensive streets in the world?

There is no assumption in thinking that we in Ireland, collectively, as a nation, are a greedy bunch.

Why point fingers at the political parties, when we are just as bad?


Lets turn a horrible point of Irish history into a political tool...no mud slinging there...

Oh and again, we the Irish people, were aware of how horrible those religious institutions were and yet did nothing.


Compared to where exactly?

In fact who is looking? There are far more important things happening else where in the world.

Sweep everything uder the carpet and hope it goes away.

That method has been tried ad-naseum in Ireland and we continue to have institutionally corrupt politicians and religious organisations.

If we continue doing the same old things in the same old way we will continue to get the same old results.

joseph brand

Were we not the first country in Europe to experience this recession? Fianna Fail could be to blame here surely? Or is it the Greens?

The handling /misuse of the banks, Fianna Fails personal bank (Anglo) in particular has shown them for what they are.

Its about time the rotten core of Fianna Fail was exposed, it should only lead to more transparency, . . hopefully.

And some sheep still vote Fianna Fail, and will continue to do so in the General Elections, because as Scott Adams said:
You can never underestimate the stupidity of the general public.

Does anybody believe that if a party have been in power for so long, never lose, and get away with murder, that they will become lazy and fruitless?They can sit on their laurels. No new ideas, and cronyism and nepotism ensue.

patmac

professore wrote: »

The same reason any party branded as conservative gets lots of votes - many people do not want change no matter what the cost to themselves. I am sure that if FF brought in a policy of shooting every firstborn child in the country they would still get a vote over 20% in this country. Look at Michael Lowry ffs. Proven tax evader http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0421/1224245071062.html yet tops the poll every time.

Same as the muppets from Mayo voting for the Flynns despite this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8T0Q03oJSc

I'm a Mullingar man living in Roscommon and working in Offaly and FF's votes held up here how embarrasing.

Boston

DJDC wrote: »

What threads like this prove is that there is no point in trying to reason with core FFers. They make up 20-25% of the electorate and that percentage is not going to decrease anytime soon. As I said before its a mindset determined from a young age not a rational choice.

How very dismissive. I've seen little in the way of persuasive argument. Shouting at people that they are irrational or stupid isn't going to change the mindset.

Liam Byrne

Boston wrote: »

How very dismissive. I've seen little in the way of persuasive argument. Shouting at people that they are irrational or stupid isn't going to change the mindset.

Well, considering the FF supporters' version of a "persuasive argument" seems to either (a) excuse what they're doing NOW and completely ignore that the issue is how they led us head-first into this crap and/or (b) involve saying "the other crowd couldn't do better" without a shred of proof, I'd say what's been typed here is - relatively at least - VERY persuasive.

It's amazing when you compare their reaction to "FG would be crap" claims (backed up by zero proof) versus "Bertie is corrupt" (backed up by very questionable "explanations" and a self-confessed tendency for blatant nepotism).

To be fair re the core blinkered "vote FF regardless" vote, the same probably applies to every party. The difference, of course, being that those voting FG or Labour don't have to ignore the elephants in the room on their way to the ballot box.

jimmycrackcorm

Seems that always vote for the person:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/convicted-councillor-stroke-fahy-tops-the-vote-1765362.html

Whether it is Michael Fahy, Beverly Flynn or Michael Lowry - party allegiance doesn't matter.

K_user

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Here we go again....toe-ing the bull**** party line - that ALL of the current woes are down to external factors.

The FACTS are that both were partly external, and partly down to policies.

HOWEVER, when FF decided to piggyback on the international stuff and "create" the Celtic Tiger, they did so with half-assed and unsustainable policies, a lack of regulation and cronyism and payoffs.

Toeing what party line? Have I mentioned any of my personal loyalties? Nope.

I'm simply pointing out that those pointing the finger tend to be just as bad as anyone else.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And as a direct result of that the crash has been WAYYYY worse than it should have been.

Really?

Say that to those in England.
Say it to those in the US.

So far, apart from the building trade, Ireland has been fairly lucky.

Liam Byrne

K_user wrote: »

So far, apart from the building trade, Ireland has been fairly lucky.

Agreed.

However FF policies had Ireland comprehensively over-reliant on the said-same building trade, and their bailout of their buddies in Anglo-Irish - an organisation for corrupt individuals again related to the building trade - are what have screwed us more than they would have elsewhere.

K_user

blinding wrote: »

Sweep everything uder the carpet and hope it goes away.

That method has been tried ad-naseum in Ireland and we continue to have institutionally corrupt politicians and religious organisations.

If we continue doing the same old things in the same old way we will continue to get the same old results.

The religious organisations that you speak of where in existence long before the current government. And the one before and the one before that...in fact the church and its organisations have been around for over 2000 years!

What went on in the Irish religious institutions was common knowledge for years. Ever hear of the Magdalene Sisters? No one in the country did anything about the abuse in these places. And using it as a "weapon" against the current lot is just silly.

Corrupt and politicians are two words that are used so regularly together that they may as well be one.

Taking two inflammatory ideas and throwing them together doesn't make for a great argument. But it does make you sound like a politician

TheInquisitor

samsemtex wrote: »

The idiotic comments coming out of Fianna Fail supporters mouths here are quite hard to fathom. My brain is actually hurting by trying to understand their logic. Brolly, Elmo and the Inquisitor have come out with some of the most ridiculous comments i have ever read. It is so hard for someone like me to believe there are people this stupid in the world.

My mate who is 23, an unemployed construction worker with probably worse prospects than any of the rest of my group of friends said the other day "I'll still vote FF 1, 2, 3. Sure that Enda Kenny is a clown why would i vote for him". I just got so angry that people as stupid as that have a say in the running of my country. Democracy has its drawbacks

Well its as simple as this sam...did you vote for fianna fail when everything was going brilliantly during the boom? What no? Why not ...your crazy etc etc etc. I'll vote fianna fail for as long as i want, i support their policies and no one is going to change who i vote for. I heard a very funny sound bite off a FG td yesterday " The problem with fianna fail is they have no experience of a recession". You haven't been in power for a decade, how are FG or labour more qualified. Their not, their less qualified.

K_user

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Agreed.

However FF policies had Ireland comprehensively over-reliant on the said-same building trade, and their bailout of their buddies in Anglo-Irish - an organisation for corrupt individuals again related to the building trade - are what have screwed us more than they would have elsewhere.

The building trade issue was not created by FF.

The Irish Banks pushed high mortgages on the public using low interest rates generated from the European banks. This created a demand for property. The building trade capitalised on it, made a fortune. Normal people then got in on the act, selling their houses and their land for huge amounts of money. The concept of the "home" was lost because of greed. Property became something to make a profit on. Plenty of blame to go around.

As for Anglo-Irish?

Banks all over the world are failing and they are all going to their governments for bail outs. You remember Northern Rock? You've seen what happened to RBOS? Why wouldn't the Irish government do the same?

In fact if they didn't they'd be blamed for not doing anything.

K_user

K_user wrote: »

As for Anglo-Irish?

Banks all over the world are failing and they are all going to their governments for bail outs. You remember Northern Rock? You've seen what happened to RBOS? Why wouldn't the Irish government do the same?

In fact if they didn't they'd be blamed for not doing anything.

In all fairness I'd have let Anglo go bedamned,persue the defaulter customers it has with out mercy,taking the hit on the property they borrowed on, and use the 4 billion [that the govt want to wast on them] in job creation projects instead, to finish the rail to the airport and the roads that have been abandoned like the N11 Beehive to Arklow link.

What the government is doing with Anglo has annoyed me muchly and makes no sense whatsoever.
They haven't a hope of making money investing in that crock whereas at least they'll get a return from the half managed banks like BOI and AIB.

K_user

Deleted User wrote: »

In all fairness I'd have let Anglo go bedamned,persue the defaulter customers it has with out mercy,taking the hit on the property they borrowed on, and use the 4 billion [that the govt want to wast on them] in job creation projects instead, to finish the rail to the airport and the roads that have been abandoned like the N11 Beehive to Arklow link.

What the government is doing with Anglo has annoyed me muchly and makes no sense whatsoever.
They haven't a hope of making money investing in that crock whereas at least they'll get a return from the half managed banks like BOI and AIB.

But if they did nothing there would be an out cry against them.

In times like this governments have to make sh*ty decisions. Letting a bank die would have far greater repercussions than trying to save it.

TheInquisitor

Deleted User wrote: »

In all fairness I'd have let Anglo go bedamned,persue the defaulter customers it has with out mercy,taking the hit on the property they borrowed on, and use the 4 billion [that the govt want to wast on them] in job creation projects instead, to finish the rail to the airport and the roads that have been abandoned like the N11 Beehive to Arklow link.

What the government is doing with Anglo has annoyed me muchly and makes no sense whatsoever.
They haven't a hope of making money investing in that crock whereas at least they'll get a return from the half managed banks like BOI and AIB.

We would have lost 65 billion if we left Anglo go. Leaving it go wasn't even an option, the country would have gone bankcrupt the next day. Imagine all the savers loosing their money, the international investors loosing their bonds, we would never be able to borrow money internationally again. Saving anglo was the best and ONLY option in the situation.

Elmo

K_user wrote: »

But if they did nothing there would be an out cry against them.

In times like this governments have to make sh*ty decisions. Letting a bank die would have far greater repercussions than trying to save it.

They could have set up a new bank, got rid of all of the upper management of the banks and slowly had NAMA take over the bad interests on behalf of the people of Ireland. Instead they kept the bankers (those who didn't resign or retire) in good positions. ditto the developers. The only losers are the people.

Just because they did what they did doesn't mean it is right, they mis-managed their budgets for the last 10 years, its only now people have woken up. However FG would run it along the same lines and have the same set up with different people.

FG may not be corrupt but they have just as many friends in the banks.

The government sold all of their banks only to buy them back at a higher rate yet they aren't worth as much now as they were in 2001.

meglome

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Well its as simple as this sam...did you vote for fianna fail when everything was going brilliantly during the boom? What no? Why not ...your crazy etc etc etc. I'll vote fianna fail for as long as i want, i support their policies and no one is going to change who i vote for. I heard a very funny sound bite off a FG td yesterday " The problem with fianna fail is they have no experience of a recession". You haven't been in power for a decade, how are FG or labour more qualified. Their not, their less qualified.

I'm cheerleading FG at the moment but in the past I did vote FF, actually normally I'm not party political at all. This was before most of the corruption scandals, before we lost our way in having a competitive economy, before they encouraged a property bubble, before all the money they wasted on infrastructure projects that didn't have fixed price contracts, before that rubbish deal with the church, before they just threw money at things instead of fixing them etc etc. So I had no issue whatsoever voting for a party that were doing things that made sense but after that point I stopped voting for them.

It's mind boggling to me that people compare voting for FF like supporting their favourite sports team. Like we can lose a load of games and it won't matter, IT REALLY DOES MATTER. Our economy is in the toilet and it was lead there by FF. Aided and abetted, it has to be said, by us, the people of Ireland. We get the government we deserve and until we stop voting for corrupt and self serving politicians we'll keep getting exactly what we deserve.

We would have lost 65 billion? [Savings could be protected]
Pull the other one.

I've not seen any analysis of the value of property on their books and neither have you and frankly I'd be skeptical even if there was one.
Besides any losses would be notional for the government/Ireland.
People took a punt on that bank and they should be forced to see the other side of that risk.
Governments are elected to look after the country as a whole and I'm not alone in thinking saving anglo falls into that category.
Go ask George..

In times like this governments have to make sh*ty decisions. Letting a bank die would have far greater repercussions than trying to save it.

I'd advise having a long hard look at that spin.

Elmo

meglome wrote: »

I'm cheerleading FG at the moment but in the past I did vote FF, actually normally I'm not party political at all. This was before most of the corruption scandals, before we lost our way in having a competitive economy, before they encouraged a property bubble, before all the money they wasted on infrastructure projects that didn't have fixed price contracts, before that rubbish deal with the church, before they just threw money at things instead of fixing them etc etc. So I had no issue whatsoever voting for a party that were doing things that made sense but after that point I stopped voting for them.

It's mind boggling to me that people compare voting for FF like supporting their favourite sports team. Like we can lose a load of games and it won't matter, IT REALLY DOES MATTER. Our economy is in the toilet and it was lead there by FF. Aided and abetted, it has to be said, by us, the people of Ireland. We get the government we deserve and until we stop voting for corrupt and self serving politicians we'll keep getting exactly what we deserve.

So did you vote for them in the last General Election?

gcgirl

Deleted User wrote: »

In all fairness I'd have let Anglo go bedamned,persue the defaulte customers it has with out mercy,taking the hit on the property they borrowed on, and use the 4 billion [that the govt want to wast on them] in job creation projects instead, to finish the rail to the airport and the roads that have been abandoned like the N11 Beehive to Arklow link.

What the government is doing with Anglo has annoyed me muchly and makes no sense whatsoever.
They haven't a hope of making money investing in that crock whereas at least they'll get a return from the half managed banks like BOI and AIB.

+4 billion there the n11 there is a death trap how many other people have been killed on that strech of road ! ↲Our credit rating has gone down due to the government putting more money in to Anglo !

Elmo

Elmo wrote: »

So did you vote for them in the last General Election?

if meglome did,he/she was entitled to do so based on the information to hand at the time.
The credit crunch was no where to be seen at the time and FG and Labour were matching FF spending plans like a Tesco price promise.

meglome

TheInquisitor wrote: »

We would have lost 65 billion if we left Anglo go. Leaving it go wasn't even an option, the country would have gone bankcrupt the next day. Imagine all the savers loosing their money, the international investors loosing their bonds, we would never be able to borrow money internationally again. Saving anglo was the best and ONLY option in the situation.

At first I thought it would be a good idea to save Anglo if we checked out fully how things stood in there first. But we didn't check this out we just went ahead. And unsurprising in a bank that seemed to be up to all sorts of dodgy practises it's much worse than we thought. The government should have covered ordinary savers and let the rest go to the wall. Our children are going to be paying this back.

jdivision

K_user wrote: »

The building trade issue was not created by FF.

.

Yes it was, where else in the world would you be giving tax incentives to people to buy property during one the biggest surges in property prices in the world ever. FF contributed hugely to the property boom but what's worse is they then spent money on things that still cost in the long-term (massive wage increases for the public sector, huge increase in public sector employment before each general election etc) using money that was only guaranteed in the short-term.

meglome

Elmo wrote: »

So did you vote for them in the last General Election?

Not in any way shape or form. It was very evident to me that things were very wrong.

Elmo

Deleted User wrote: »

if meglome did,he/she was entitled to do so based on the information to hand at the time.

I knew the above based on what information was to hand in the last GE. Nothing really has changed. People have being saying all of the below for the last 10 years.

This was before most of the corruption scandals

Charlie Haughey and Ray Burke etc.

before we lost our way in having a competitive economy, before they encouraged a property bubble,

Property Bubble encouraged before the last GE. Losting competitive edge at that stage.

before all the money they wasted on infrastructure projects that didn't have fixed price contracts,

Happened during the 10 years was quite well know in most all circles including public circles.

before that rubbish deal with the church

10 years before the Ryan Report. (Based on the information they then had to hand according to themselves).

before they just threw money at things instead of fixing them etc etc. So I had no issue whatsoever voting for a party that were doing things that made sense but after that point I stopped voting for them.

They have been doing this for a long time you just choose to ignore it all.

thegen

Reason I voted FF.

I preferred to have Eoin Ryan in instead of the new MEP Higgins and John Lahart is a good local politician. Simple as that.

Fine Gael will not win an election with Kenny at the helm.He is simply not a leader of a country, saying that neither is Cowen.

Both parties need a change of leader.

meglome

Deleted User wrote: »

if meglome did,he/she was entitled to do so based on the information to hand at the time.
The credit crunch was no where to be seen at the time and FG and Labour were matching FF spending plans like a Tesco price promise.

True. But as others have said if the party in power are doing what you consider to be very wrong the only alternative is to try someone else. As it turns out some disabled monkeys might has accidentally made a better go of it.

Elmo

thegen wrote: »

Reason I voted FF.

I preferred to have Eoin Ryan in instead of the new MEP Higgins and John Lahart is a good local politician. Simple as that.

Fine Gael will not win an election with Kenny at the helm.He is simply not a leader of a country, saying that neither is Cowen.

Both parties need a change of leader.

In fairness to FG (not usually like me) they cann't afford to change leadership at this stage. FG saw their vote decrease since 1992 due to the fact that after each election up to 2004 they nearly had a different leader.