To the 24.8% who gave Fianna Fail a first preference: Why ?

Elmo

meglome wrote: »

True. But as others have said if the party in power are doing what you consider to be very wrong the only alternative is to try someone else. As it turns out some disabled monkeys might has accidentally made a better go of it.

Your alternative isn't an alternative IMO.

thegen

thegen wrote: »

Reason I voted FF.

I preferred to have Eoin Ryan in instead of the new MEP Higgins and John Lahart is a good local politician. Simple as that.

Fine Gael will not win an election with Kenny at the helm.He is simply not a leader of a country, saying that neither is Cowen.

Both parties need a change of leader.

I know quite a few people who voted Joe Higgins to oust Mary Lou and these would be people in reasonably well paid jobs and comfortably off even despite the levies.
Joe Higgins is actually a communist whose hero is Che Guevara

I sometimes find the peculiarities of the voting system hilarious.

Whilst they are singing Ding dong the witch is dead,I'm reminding them of what Joe's policies would do for them.
Mind you personally I like Higgins and would have given him a preference if I had a vote in Dublin.

meglome

Elmo wrote: »

I knew the above based on what information was to hand in the last GE. Nothing really has changed. People have being saying all of the below for the last 10 years.

Charlie Haughey and Ray Burke etc.

Property Bubble encouraged before the last GE. Losting competitive edge at that stage.

Happened during the 10 years was quite well know in most all circles including public circles.

10 years before the Ryan Report. (Based on the information they then had to hand according to themselves).

They have been doing this for a long time you just choose to ignore it all.

Ah I see what you're doing there, you're making the assumption that although I didn't vote for them in the 2007 election I did in the previous one, which would be completely incorrect. It was quite obvious to be that things were going in the wrong direction even then. Although I had no idea how bad it would actually get.

MysticalRain

K_user wrote: »

As did the entire country.

Er, no. Not all of us took out 100% mortgages and speculated wildly on rental properties in Bulgaria.

You might have a point if any of the other parties where screaming that there was a recession coming, that we had to be careful. But they weren't. They were too busy slinging mud and trying to get into power themselves. But thats what politicians are supposed to do.

Many politicians did, especially those on the left. Besides, there was no other political party that was as cozy with the developers as much as FF. That made them unique.

achtungbarry

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am genuinely interested in the "why" people would continue to vote this party.

FF had the best candidates in my area. The two sitting Councillors upped their first preference, a testament to their hard work and ability at a time when the national vote collapsed.

barryfield

them there blueshirts are fascist , lets not forget their history ,
and this place is boloxed anyway so it dont matter whos in , and if that kenny is taoisheach the sucide rate will quadruple, things are bad but imagine having to listen to that whingy prick more than we do now

achtungbarry wrote: »

Let me make this clear, I am not saying people are not entitled to vote for whomever they wish.

Of course they are, this is a democracy after all.

(Just to clear that up before the inevitable "people can vote for anyone they want in a democracy" bit)

I am genuinely interested in the "why" people would continue to vote this party.

I want to understand the mindset of the the 24.8% who still feel that FF deserve to be in power.

Is it a case of not liking the alternative option or maybe a family tradition thing ?

TheInquisitor

meglome wrote: »

At first I thought it would be a good idea to save Anglo if we checked out fully how things stood in there first. But we didn't check this out we just went ahead. And unsurprising in a bank that seemed to be up to all sorts of dodgy practises it's much worse than we thought. The government should have covered ordinary savers and let the rest go to the wall. Our children are going to be paying this back.

Humm let me see, the bank told the government on the friday they wouldn't be able to reopen on monday. So the government had 2 days to decide what to do. Yes it was a ****ty deal but still better than the alternative which i shudder to think about

samsemtex

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Well its as simple as this sam...did you vote for fianna fail when everything was going brilliantly during the boom? What no? Why not ...your crazy etc etc etc. I'll vote fianna fail for as long as i want, i support their policies and no one is going to change who i vote for. I heard a very funny sound bite off a FG td yesterday " The problem with fianna fail is they have no experience of a recession". You haven't been in power for a decade, how are FG or labour more qualified. Their not, their less qualified.

No i didnt even get to vote since i lived in Dublin and because Fianna Fail tried their best to stop young people like me voting by putting it on a Thursday i couldnt return home to vote for someone else as i had planned on doing. There is another blatant example of how they try manipulating things to work out for them. Thanks for reminding me of another reason why i think they are scum.

Secondly, after 10 years in government i realised that with all the billions of prosperity we had we still have the worst health care system in Europe. If i break my arm in the morning i'm still looking at 8 hours in A&E. If i get seriously ill the problems are even worse.

Thirdly, we still have the worst infrastructure system in Europe despite a few new motorways which we should have had years ago. Dont bother saying these are proof of FF improving the infrastructure because motorways are a very basic necessity, not to mind that many of these projects cost way over the odds anyway. Our rail system is a joke. A complete and utter joke.

Fourthly, we have never been visited by a FF TD at my house in Limerick. Never. I live on the N8 so its not as if they have to go out of their way to see us.

Fiftly, their revered leader who was clearly lying through his teeth about this house in Dublin and the "whip around" business was just another example of how they tolerate corruption. How many scandals happened which in any other country around the world would have brought about instant resignation were just swept under the carpet? I will not vote for a party who is represented by someone who acts like that and is not only tolerated but commended for his handling of it.

Then....

and only then do we get into the current problems that have been listed by many other posters here on this thread. The banking scandals, bailing out developers, cronyism, doubling of public sector pay roles, rewarding themselves with fancy new government buildings etc.

I'm sure you'll come out with the same tripe of "sure what would FG have done different" but even if they wouldnt i definitely would like to see if they might now and i sure as hell am not rewarding complete and utter failure by a government.

Tell me this after our years and years of the "Celtic Tiger" what do we have to show for it? Come on, what long term tangible benefits do we really have?

Liam Byrne

barryfield wrote: »

them there blueshirts are fascist , lets not forget their history ,
and this place is boloxed anyway so it dont matter whos in , and if that kenny is taoisheach the sucide rate will quadruple, things are bad but imagine having to listen to that whingy prick more than we do now

Candidate for bull**** post of the week, methinks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist

barryfield wrote: »

it don't matter who's in

- if that's what you think, why not vote FG or Labour ? Why vote for the idiots that landed us in this mess ?

barryfield wrote: »

if that kenny is taoisheach the sucide rate will quadruple

Really ? Did some exit poll somewhere ask "will you commit suicide if Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach ?

At least he doesn't tell people that they're so pessimistic that they should commit suicide....

barryfield wrote: »

but imagine having to listen to that whingy prick more than we do now

Hmm. "whingy prick" versus arrogant, deluded and dismissive idiots.....tough choice. Still know which I'd pick.

Pal

I voted FF as it seemed to be the best option to keep SF out.

T runner

achtungbarry wrote: »

Let me make this clear, I am not saying people are not entitled to vote for whomever they wish.

Of course they are, this is a democracy after all.

(Just to clear that up before the inevitable "people can vote for anyone they want in a democracy" bit)

I am genuinely interested in the "why" people would continue to vote this party.

I want to understand the mindset of the the 24.8% who still feel that FF deserve to be in power.

Is it a case of not liking the alternative option or maybe a family tradition thing ?

I think there is a definate "not liking the alternative" in many of the answers here.

In 2007 an unpopular FF led government was able to get back in power due mainly to the perceived weakness of the opposition in the lection campaign. I think the rise in votes for independents in the current elections shows that people leaving FF are not convinced by the opposition parties.

THe current FF led government have done a below par job. (no not, worst government ever, not sloehandedly responsible for bring the country to its knees, just below par).

How have the opposition performed? I think they performed equally as badly.
How a party performs in opposition is an indication of how they will perform in government. Were people satisfied with FGs performance in opposition for example?

It seems to me that FG only started shouting about regulators, bubbles etc after things had burst.

Only a certain type of person can realistically become a TD in the current setup. We are always going to have this "type" in the majority and things will only continue to change at glacial pace.

The more pertinent question is not why do people vote FF. Its why they voted for any of the major parties after what has happenned.

Elmo

Pal wrote: »

I voted FF as it seemed to be the best option to keep SF out.

All FF need to do is to go into government with SF that should really get rid of them.

Also I think you are mis-informed FF are more closer to SF than FG would be. Also it seems like a stupid reason since SF don't want to go into government with FF and FG and FG has stated they don't want any thing to do with SF and FF, it seems to me that FF will have anyone in government with them.

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Really ? Did some exit poll somewhere ask "will you commit suicide if Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach ?

At least he doesn't tell people that they're so pessimistic that they should commit suicide....

Hmm. "whingy prick" versus arrogant, deluded and dismissive idiots.....tough choice. Still know which I'd pick.

:D

Nothing funnier than someone not getting the piss take. Though i thought the suicide rate will quadruple line made it too obvious.

Elmo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hmm. "whingy prick" versus arrogant, deluded and dismissive idiots.....tough choice. Still know which I'd pick.

I don't know FG started becoming just as arrogant, deluded and dismissive as the night of television coverage continued.

As for the Blueshirts ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

Are we allowed use wikipedia as a reference? :rolleyes:

samsemtex

samsemtex wrote: »

No i didnt even get to vote since i lived in Dublin and because Fianna Fail tried their best to stop young people like me voting by putting it on a Thursday i couldnt return home to vote for someone else as i had planned on doing. There is another blatant example of how they try manipulating things to work out for them. Thanks for reminding me of another reason why i think they are scum.

Personally I thought it was awful the way Labour and Fine Gael arranged for good weather last Friday, so those disaffected with the system lost their excuse for not voting and went and voted anti-establishment.

All these conspiracies, huh?

Liam Byrne

Elmo wrote: »

As for the Blueshirts ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

Are we allowed use wikipedia as a reference? :rolleyes:

Ahhhhh, but the post said "facist", not "quasi-fascist".

BTW, nice of you to post a link that includes the following in the very first paragraph:

Counter-arguments would be that the organisation was perceived by Blueshirts themselves as being defensive in nature (being aimed at the threat perceived from the militant IRA), that O'Duffy's fascist ideas were not widely shared by rank-and-file members, and that the Blueshirts were campaigning for civil rights and constitutional government at a time when fascists explicitly opposed those things

And further down

Following disagreements with his Fine Gael colleagues, O'Duffy left the party, although most of the Blueshirts stayed in Fine Gael. O'Duffy then founded the National Corporate Party...........In December 1934, O'Duffy attended the Montreux Fascist conference in Switzerland.

So it seems that O'Duffy might have been a bit of a facist, but that wasn't a view shared by the members, so he left and went off to form a facist party, leaving FG to be non-facist ?

Boston

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well, considering the FF supporters' version of a "persuasive argument" seems to either (a) excuse what they're doing NOW and completely ignore that the issue is how they led us head-first into this crap and/or (b) involve saying "the other crowd couldn't do better" without a shred of proof, I'd say what's been typed here is - relatively at least - VERY persuasive.

It's amazing when you compare their reaction to "FG would be crap" claims (backed up by zero proof) versus "Bertie is corrupt" (backed up by very questionable "explanations" and a self-confessed tendency for blatant nepotism).

To be fair re the core blinkered "vote FF regardless" vote, the same probably applies to every party. The difference, of course, being that those voting FG or Labour don't have to ignore the elephants in the room on their way to the ballot box.

Bertie wasn't on the ballet paper. I won't be voting for him again, nor did I vote for his brother. Thats more to do with his close relationship with the church then anything else. Look, I don't believe FF is corrupt to the core, so failing abandoning them completely, the next best option is to vote for the right type of candidates and hopefully influence the party in the right direction.

I hassard a guess Liam, that FF policies wouldn't be the ones you'd agree with anyway, and as such it's easier for you to have a protect against the collective party. FF candidates tend to represent my views more closely then the candidates from the other parties, as such I'd be a fool not to vote that way. That said, in the By election I voted independant, Labour and FG in that order.

Elmo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So it seems that O'Duffy might have been a bit of a facist, but that wasn't a view shared by the members, so he left and went off to form a facist party, leaving FG to be non-facist ?

Yeah but I don't think FG politicans should go on the radio saying they are happy to be a Blueshirt :eek:

Anyway I wasn't really trying to counter you argument.

ros244

Is anybody here of the opinion that the whole system in Ireland needs some fundamental /lateral/forward thinking? Its all well and good to say FF have messed up and need to go. I have voted for them in past, but agree they need to go.

But I have 0 confidence the opposition parties will do any better. In fact I think we will soon have a new government, and truly hope the alternative can do better, but I honestly feel time will show little / no difference.

In our boom years we have had things such as Moriarty tribunal on payments to politicians(absolutely required to find the facts I agree), and starting of NCT for cars over 4 years old(safety always paramount concern obviously). My point being, the Moriarty tribunal has cost the state (ie taxpayer) enormous sums in legal fees. The NCT is a great idea, but every 2 years now people generally need to take some time off work, go to a centre. Pay 50quid for 10 mins for someone to tell them their rear seatbelt is inaccessible (ie. tucked down side of seat accidentally) and to come back for a retest (ie. more time off work, costs, etc). I just use these 2 items as illustration of costs which I feel collectively our country finds hard to bere. Bring everything back to the fundamentals and simplify. I don’t think its what you would call a misappropriation of funds, but a severe lack of ingenuity on how best to use them which is what has our country in dire straits.

I hope the likes of George Lee who obviously had a handle on the reality of what was coming in the Irish economy can make a difference.

So basically FG for a fresh approach, but I truly hope it’s a fresh FG with some truly bright forward thinking ideas, rather than FG for the sake of not having FF.

Pal

Elmo wrote: »

All FF need to do is to go into government with SF that should really get rid of them.

Also I think you are mis-informed FF are more closer to SF than FG would be. Also it seems like a stupid reason since SF don't want to go into government with FF and FG and FG has stated they don't want any thing to do with SF and FF, it seems to me that FF will have anyone in government with them.

The question was why did you vote FF ?

My reason was because I thought a vote for Eoin Ryan would oust Mary Lou.

I am not misinformed about anything.
OK ?

Elmo

Pal wrote: »

The question was why did you vote FF ?

My reason was because I thought a vote for Eoin Ryan would oust Mary Lou.

I am not misinformed about anything.
OK ?

Eoin Ryan can't oust people in an election. That is up to the electorate, and he was ousted.

Not really

Liam Byrne

Boston wrote: »

I hassard a guess Liam, that FF policies wouldn't be the ones you'd agree with anyway,

I can't even decipher what FF's policies are, these days. All I've seen is "stay in power at any cost", "privatise without any safeguards", "avoid responsibility and take no-one to task for screwing up, whether FF ministers or appointed buddies"

Boston wrote: »

FF candidates tend to represent my views more closely then the candidates from the other parties, as such I'd be a fool not to vote that way. That said, in the By election I voted independant, Labour and FG in that order.

:eek: Huh ? Did you just indirectly call yourself a fool ???

Boston

I said tend. I also said I don't vote for parties. I vote FF in the MEP and Local Elections.

TheInquisitor

Wacko wrote: »

"My daddy voted for them, my grandaddy voted for them and now since I am incapable of independent thought I will too"

---

this just about sums it up.

Ha your only kidding yourself if you think the same doesn't apply to FG, labour and sinn fein

K_user

Elmo wrote: »

They could have set up a new bank, got rid of all of the upper management of the banks and slowly had NAMA take over the bad interests on behalf of the people of Ireland. Instead they kept the bankers (those who didn't resign or retire) in good positions. ditto the developers. The only losers are the people.

Set up a new Bank...

You say that like you are suggesting we all, as in all of Boards, meet up for Ice-Cream. And even that idea has huge logistical implications.

Setting up a bank would mean either letting A-I Bank fall to the wayside. Which would bring instability to the Irish financial market. Not to mention job losses and monetary nightmares to the thousands of Clients involved. Then go to the headache of building up a financial business from scratch using the tax payers money.

Or they would have to controlling interest in the institution, hire people to weed out the directors, managers and surplus staff. This would mean paying out a fortune in redundancy and then hire new staff to take their place.

Both options would take time, money and show few results for years.

Oh and neither would change what has already happened.

And both would have the public calling for the Governments heads on a stick.

Elmo wrote: »

Just because they did what they did doesn't mean it is right, they mis-managed their budgets for the last 10 years, its only now people have woken up. However FG would run it along the same lines and have the same set up with different people.

Miss-managed? How so?

Thats kind of a opinion based statement. Its very easy to claim something was miss-managed when you are sitting at home not dealing with billions of Euro's, millions of people looking for more tax-breaks and benefits, state institutions with archaic rules and reg's and not to mention the day to day hassle of politics. Because no matter what they do/did someone was/would complain.

*And all of the above refers to who ever is in power.

Elmo wrote: »

FG may not be corrupt but they have just as many friends in the banks.

I'd be careful there.

To insinuate that an entire party is corrupt implies that all members are corrupt. Which is not only libellous but also wrong, because you can't possibly know that.

Elmo wrote: »

The government sold all of their banks only to buy them back at a higher rate yet they aren't worth as much now as they were in 2001.

No bank, on the planet, is worth as much now as it was in 2001.

And there is no comparison between how a private company sells a business, to how a Government is allowed to sell something. In both cases the Government need to be mindful of the employees, while a private company couldn’t care less…

Elmo

Miss-managed? How so?

Thats kind of a opinion based statement. Its very easy to claim something was miss-managed when you are sitting at home not dealing with billions of Euro's, millions of people looking for more tax-breaks and benefits, state institutions with archaic rules and reg's and not to mention the day to day hassle of politics. Because no matter what they do/did someone was/would complain.

*And all of the above refers to who ever is in power.

FF fooled people into believing that they where getting value for money. They did mismanage the budgets that the set out, that can be seen in the mess they have left us in. No government has to lower taxes or increase benifits. Government can change the systems not just suggest laws which is what FF did for 10 years. I don't care about the hassles of politics. There are plenty of examples where the government over spent.

I'd be careful there.

To insinuate that an entire party is corrupt implies that all members are corrupt. Which is not only libellous but also wrong, because you can't possibly know that.

Yeah, I didn't insinuate anything other then FG have friends in the banks, plenty of people work in banks.

No bank, on the planet, is worth as much now as it was in 2001.

And there is no comparison between how a private company sells a business, to how a Government is allowed to sell something. In both cases the Government need to be mindful of the employees, while a private company couldn’t care less…

And yet the government purchased a bank for more than what it sold ACC, ICC and TBS for back in 2001.

As for the banking idea, I don't know who put that in my head. But perhaps they would have been better to nationalize the smaller banks and let Anglo go to the ground. But who am I to say, this sofa is very comfortable.

K_user

jdivision wrote: »

Yes it was, where else in the world would you be giving tax incentives to people to buy property during one the biggest surges in property prices in the world ever.

Were people complaining about the incentives at the time? No.

Whats amazing is the seer greed and naivety of people.

People clamour to buy houses, at prices well beyond their reach, from people scamming off the top. They demand help from the government, who gives them what they want. A couple of years later people turn on the "help" because they've realised what "beyond their reach" means.

No market stays at low prices for 35 years. And that is what people were signing up to. No bank ever keeps its interest rates at rock bottom. Yet people believed they would.

If you are unable to do your own homework, blame the government, that seems to be the way...

jdivision wrote: »

FF contributed hugely to the property boom but what's worse is they then spent money on things that still cost in the long-term (massive wage increases for the public sector, huge increase in public sector employment before each general election etc) using money that was only guaranteed in the short-term.

The public sector demanded a higher wage to compete with wages in the private sector. Had they been refused there would have been massive strikes. And the government would have lost.

Increased employment? Isn't that what the people want? The public sector includes Guards, Nurses, staff at your local public service centre. We demand, then complain when we get it?

asti_mivec

ros244 wrote: »

Is anybody here of the opinion that the whole system in Ireland needs some fundamental /lateral/forward thinking? Its all well and good to say FF have messed up and need to go. I have voted for them in past, but agree they need to go.

But I have 0 confidence the opposition parties will do any better. In fact I think we will soon have a new government, and truly hope the alternative can do better, but I honestly feel time will show little / no difference.

Hi, I don't post on boards too often but I feel it is the perfect platform to get a lot of people talking and as such I feel compelled to add to the above posters insinuation that the whole system needs to change fundamentally.

I am delighted to see that FF took a hammerring in the recent elections however,I am slightly worried that most seem to see FG as a decent alternative. I think the idea of democracy is great but our choices are so limited the current political parties can pretty much do as they please without anybody intervening.

How many tribunals have we had/ do we still have ongoing that highlight a series of absolutely catastrophic problems? And yet, what has been done? Surely, if these tribunals were any use, we would have seen huge numbers of people involved both in the public and private sectors joining the > 400k people queuing for the dole every week?!?

Unfortunately I think that our government/constitution etc are all so out of touch with the reality that is living in the 21st century that I think the only viable solution is to do away with the current political setup including all parties and start again. Similar to an orchard rife with rotten apples..it would take so much time to find the good amongst the bad that we would be better off burning the orchard down and starting it again with the seeds from known good apples.

I really think that our constitution needs a complete overhaul in order to cut ties with the Catholic Church, and the current situation of politicians only being employed because they've been affiliated with the party for so long. Our Seanaid is pointless in it's current guise so effectively the party(ies) in power can do as they please (which so far has been nothing but look after their own interests).

Our government has failed to plan for the current economic crisis at all, and their current attempts to generate revenue are so badly planned and thought out that it is frightening. There are too many areas where corruption needs to be stopped which is why I would like to see all bank leaders removed, all parties disbanded and our constitution overhauled to help bring the way the country is run up to speed with the current century.

How can the church still have so much influence in this day and age with their unfounded/biggoted/often racist and sexist views still visible in many public sectors? This is in my opinion an outrage. In light of the Ryan report I think we have just cause to call for cutting all ties that this republic has with this institution who somehow still enforce their own ignorant views on us all - one prime example that I noticed in recent times that I think highlights the state of our country is seen in the following line from the state run IBTS website which states "Never give blood if...You are a male who has ever had anal or oral sex with another male, even if a condom or other form of protection was used", this I find unbelievable in this day and age; and no I am not gay but I believe that we should all be treated as equals and I think we should all be free to make our own choices about what we do to/with our bodies!

How can we go about changing the constitution? How do we go about getting rid of the government in it's entirety and starting anew with the best people being hired for each and every public office?

Some people may think it's unrealistic, but why is it so?

K_user

Elmo wrote: »

FF fooled people into believing that they where getting value for money. They did mismanage the budgets that the set out, that can be seen in the mess they have left us in. No government has to lower taxes or increase benifits.

You can't be fooled if you are doing your homework.
If you walk into a used car dealership don't be surprised to see used cars.

And its very hard for a government to set out to "fool" an entire nation over a 10 year period. Billions get spent, at times some of it wisely. At others, its crap. Hind sight is wonderful.

Also no government has to lower taxes or increase benefits, but if they don't during boom times then they get the boot.

Elmo wrote: »

Government can change the systems not just suggest laws which is what FF did for 10 years. I don't care about the hassles of politics. There are plenty of examples where the government over spent.

Ok Government can change systems. But can they do it without strikes, bad press, accusations flying? No.

Governments think short term, because we the public are looking short term. We don't want to see the nurses going on strike today, just because those in charge say that it will improve things in 10 years time.

And there are plenty of examples of overspend everywhere. Public/Private it doesn't matter. People are always looking to get more money, that won't change, therefore overspends will happen.

Elmo wrote: »

Yeah, I didn't insinuate anything other then FG have friends in the banks, plenty of people work in banks.

Elmo wrote: »

And yet the government purchased a bank for more than what it sold ACC, ICC and TBS for back in 2001.

But do we have the particulars?

It could be argued that they sold cheap to save jobs.
That they spent more to ensure public faith in the institution remained.

Who knows?

Elmo wrote: »

As for the banking idea, I don't know who put that in my head. But perhaps they would have been better to nationalize the smaller banks and let Anglo go to the ground. But who am I to say, this sofa is very comfortable.

You get a sofa? I only have a chair that spins!

TheInquisitor

TheInquisitor wrote: »

No its called loyalty, through thick and thin

This is about running a country not supporting a football team