Misconceptions about Lisbon Treaty

Acacia

While discussing the elections yesterday with my older brother, I was a bit disappointed to find that he had voted for Libertas (judging by the threads here they don't seem to be the most consistent party), mainly because in his words "they're against Lisbon". When I asked him why this is a good thing he said, "Lisbon will force in abortion, we'll have no democracy, etc, etc."

I'm not even sure where he got this information from but I really doubt it's accurate. He's a bit of an EU skeptic I suppose. I tried explaining the benefits of the EU to him, but to no avail, and I'm not entirely sure what the new Lisbon treaty will actually do myself.

Does anybody have any sources I could point him to, to show what Lisbon is actually about? In everyday non-jargon terms?

The Mad Hatter

Acacia wrote: »

I'm not even sure where he got this information from

Libertas.

limklad

Acacia wrote: »

Does anybody have any sources I could point him to, to show what Lisbon is actually about? In everyday non-jargon terms?

The Lisbon Treaty amends current EU and EC treaties.
• the Treaty Establishing the European Community (the EC Treaty);
• the Treaty on European Union (the Maastricht Treaty).

It is not going to be easy as there been a lot of lies from both sides of the debate.

Very few people actually know the implications of the Lisbon Treaty, even here in this forum people are still debating after a year after the last Referendum. We still trying the to figure it out the implications of the NICE treaty as very few people actually know how the EU currently works under NICE Treaty and how Lisbon Treaty will change the EU. That why confusion currently exists and that confusion is used to scaremonger them most effectively by both sides of the debate. The Yes Campaign says it will destroy our economy if we vote NO and the No side says Lisbon will bring about Abortion, loss of Commissioner and bring about the EU Army and it concription of us into it's Army, etc.
Both side told us a fine set of porky lies.

From Yes Campaign: As we all know our economy is in the dog house because of the Credit Crisis that existed in the US which triggered a collapse at this side of the Atlantic due to bad loans and deals. Lisbon Treaty would not have save us. Only actions by our Government and ECB can help but we too needs to do our bit.
Also We now have an EU Army called EuroCorps under the Treaty of Strasbourg and under the European Security and Defence Policy pillar which is within the Rules of the NICE Treaty as the EU parliament accepted into EU law as the Standing Army of the EU.

We ( Ireland) are not part of that Army as we do not participate as we are not signatories of the Treaty of Strasbourg, but that Army do represent the EU and is under EU command. This change of command from Individual Nations states to EU command took place with a Year after we voted in the Last EU Referendum. You can read more about the History of that Army which was created originally by France and Germany back in 1963 from their website . Also Read their Press Releases about the Treaty of Strasbourg for more Information. As you know we are a neutral Military State. We are not Neutral by our Constitution. It is a Political Neutrality and that can easily be change by will of our government.
As the Parliament and EU Council passed Laws to accepted and Anthem and Symbols in anticipation of the Lisbon Treaty Ratification sice that last Referendum. All Steps for a full symbolic State.
Ratification of Lisbon Treaty will create that EU State into Law as it is currently an Organisation.

As for the No Campaign. Lisbon has nothing to do with Abortion. The Commissioner we would have lost earlier under Nice Treaty Rules than if Lisbon was Implemented.

Most Irish Politicians could not explain the Lisbon Treaty when asked in the Last Referendum and they just kept quoting benefits that was used in the NICE referendum and not the benefits of the Lisbon Treaty. Also Quotes that EU Army would not happen and yet did happen, lots of broken promises. The only true thing right now is that we will not be conscripted into that Army as it is only Voluntary. That may change only those who are true prophets or God will know for sure, Any one else are telling more porky lies.

Go to The Irish Referendum Website on the Lisbon Treaty, they are suppose to be independent body for Referendum.
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/
I have to say the Referendum Website does not complete picture and it only gives a basic understanding but not the full implications to us as citizens of the EU. The Reason for that is you have another component that does not involve Treaties, that is the human component "The Politicians desires" and people understanding of EU Law and its creation.
For a Complete understanding you need to be able to master Irish and EU Law.

I do believe your brother has been mislead by Libertas and his weakness is exploited by them due to his lack of knowledge and understanding of the present system, Politicians do this too , they all have an agenda. If you ask anybody how our Dail works and democracy works in this country and you will get some different opinions, so Good luck in teaching your brother.

PopeBuckfastXVI

I remember Joe Higgins claiming in the last campaign that Lisbon could be interpreted to force through privatisation of health & education systems.

I don't believe this is true, as Lisbon specifically recognises the need for economic and non economic services of public interest (or some phraseology like that).

Has anyone come across this argument before, and is Higgins right or wrong?

Thanks in advance!

wondering

what about the misguided/informed opinion that passing the lisbon threaty will be a bad deal for the irish farmer- that they will no longer be able to sell their meet abroad but other states will.

i do not know much about lisbon but this does not sound right????

USE

wondering wrote: »

what about the misguided/informed opinion that passing the lisbon threaty will be a bad deal for the irish farmer

That's why Irish Farmers Association, Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association, ICMSA support the Yes! campaign.

limklad

wondering wrote: »

what about the misguided/informed opinion that passing the lisbon threaty will be a bad deal for the irish farmer- that they will no longer be able to sell their meet abroad but other states will.

i do not know much about lisbon but this does not sound right????

No as Far as I am Aware, the Lisbon Treaty amendments has nothing to do with farming.
The open market that currently exists under current Rules and less subsides Payments from the EU budget to Farmers in recent years and EU Trade agreement with other world nations are affecting them more.
In the Last Referendum the Farmers organisations hijacks the Referendum for their own aims. Main one was the World Trade Deal which was going on at that time.. Cowan gave into them and they then supported the yes campaign.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Yes the IFA made a pigs ear of it.

They held their support for Lisbon to ransom, refusing to support the Treaty until the Government backed them on some other issue, something to do with the WTO I think?

The two issues became conflated, at the very least in the mind of a farmer friend of mine, who ended up voting 'no' to Lisbon, despite the backing of the IFA, because Cowen's guarantees on WTO weren't enough.

I hope there's less confusing wheeling and dealing from them the next time.

limklad

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Yes the IFA made a pigs ear of it.

So did the Government, I voted No and I still not convinced that Lisbon is good for us, since we are a small country and most of our Laws come from the EU.
I don't trust those who try to pull the wool over my eyes and cannot explain the Referendum with one group of Yes Campaign that the Lisbon Treaty is easy to read and the Other side of the yes campaign saying it was too difficult to understand but said the words "Trust us" were politicians we know what we doing.
They Claim that Lisbon is only a small change to the EU. After I read and seen on TV on the many changes to be made to the EU Governing structure, their lies became very apparent and were of the same coin with Libertas that is made up of lies.

PopeBuckfastXVI

limklad wrote: »

So did the Government

I agree, but the IFA messed up in a particularly selfish and cynical way.

wondering

limklad wrote: »

No as Far as I am Aware, the Lisbon Treaty amendments has nothing to do with farming.
...In the Last Referendum the Farmers organisations hijacks the Referendum for their own aims. Main one was the World Trade Deal which was going on at that time.. Cowan gave into them and they then supported the yes campaign.

As i thought, but not well informed enough...

need to inform myself some bit before i vote.

oscarBravo

limklad wrote: »

...most of our Laws come from the EU.

Considering how many times this blatant lie has been debunked on this forum, I'm left wondering whether you're being deliberately disingenuous, or - if not - exactly how it is that this sort of fiction takes hold in people's minds in a way that facts can't.

limklad

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I agree, but the IFA messed up in a particularly selfish and cynical way.

Their lively hood is under pressure. Just listening to a Friend of mine that they are making a loss producing Milk at the moment, as cost of everything has gone up.
Inputs for Farming:
Cost of energy - electricity, Diesel for Farm equipment,
Cost of Farm equipment, feed etc all going up
Cost of putting up new Farm sheds, milking parlours, just to keep up with EU regulation.

Outputs:
Prices that Farmers are getting Sheep and Cattle, and milk are all dropping

They are under severe threat.

Yes they acted selfishly and so did the Workers Unions, business people, it the way of the world these days.

PopeBuckfastXVI

limklad wrote: »

Yes they acted selfishly and so did the Workers Unions, business people, it the way of the world these days.

I didn't see the Unions or Business People withholding their support for Lisbon, in return for political favours outside the scope of Lisbon, however I'm entirely open to correction on that.

limklad

oscarBravo wrote: »

Considering how many times this blatant lie has been debunked on this forum, I'm left wondering whether you're being deliberately disingenuous, or - if not - exactly how it is that this sort of fiction takes hold in people's minds in a way that facts can't.

There are many sources of EU Law.
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/general_information/legal_information_and_eu_law/sources_eu_law/index_en.htm
5 Main Sources of EU Law. Most people just look at the Primary method and ignore the rest.
Primary Legislation

International Agreements involving the European Union

Secondary Legislation

General Principles of Law

Conventions between Member States

Under Ireland commitment to the EU under EU treaties, all EU law becomes Irish Law.

PopeBuckfastXVI

limklad wrote: »

There are many sources of EU Law.
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/general_information/legal_information_and_eu_law/sources_eu_law/index_en.htm
5 Main Sources of EU Law. Most people just look at the Primary method and ignore the rest.
Primary Legislation

International Agreements involving the European Union

Secondary Legislation

General Principles of Law

Conventions between Member States

Under Ireland commitment to the EU under EU treaties, all EU law becomes Irish Law.

Can you please provide the relevant figures, I'd be interested to see them?

Hitman Actual

limklad wrote: »

There are many sources of EU Law.
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/general_information/legal_information_and_eu_law/sources_eu_law/index_en.htm
5 Main Sources of EU Law. Most people just look at the Primary method and ignore the rest.
Primary Legislation

International Agreements involving the European Union

Secondary Legislation

General Principles of Law

Conventions between Member States

Under Ireland commitment to the EU under EU treaties, all EU law becomes Irish Law.

No offense, Limklad, but you're going to have to do better than that. You said 'most', but can you give us a reputable figure? FG say that the figure is <30%; do you disagree with that figure?

Scofflaw

limklad wrote: »

There are many sources of EU Law.
http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/general_information/legal_information_and_eu_law/sources_eu_law/index_en.htm
5 Main Sources of EU Law. Most people just look at the Primary method and ignore the rest.
Primary Legislation

International Agreements involving the European Union

Secondary Legislation

General Principles of Law

Conventions between Member States

Under Ireland commitment to the EU under EU treaties, all EU law becomes Irish Law.

You appear to have simply copied the front page of the EUR-LEX search engine...it would have been worth reading the links:

1. the first of those (Primary Law) is the treaties themselves.

2. international agreements involving the European Union are the same as other international treaties we sign up to (except for probably getting a better deal as part of the EU than we would have alone)

3. secondary legislation is the legislation actually produced by the EU

4. the General Principles of Law apply to the laws produced in (3). The principle of subsidiarity, for example, has no application to the member states themselves (which is a bit of a pity).

5. Conventions between Member States are agreements concluded between member states on matters where the EU has no competence - again, these are essentially international treaties. They are also bilateral or multilateral - they do not apply to Ireland unless Ireland is a signatory.

Of all of those, the only two that can realistically be described as "EU legislation" are (1) and (3). The others are either guidelines (4) or international treaties (2 and 5). Strictly speaking, of course, the Treaties (1) are also international treaties - 'the EU' does not write the EU treaties, they are agreed between the member states.

cordially,
Scofflaw

mikemac

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I agree, but the IFA messed up in a particularly selfish and cynical way.

The IFA supported a Yes campaign.
But only at last minute when they got some guarantees on World Trade Organization talks.
What they did is no different to any other union, represent their members interest.

Either way, they've failed.
Sheep farming income is way down, dairy is a disaster unless you're a mega producer and I've heard 26c per litre as the price. Think of that next time you pay 1.14 in your local shop.
As for the cattle industry......

A yes vote or no vote won't do a lot to reverse what's happening to Irish farmers

mikemac

So anyone been drafted into an European army?
Has Ireland declared war on anyone?

What do you mean no? It was a major reason given by the no campaign.

And the exact same reason was given for the Masstricht treaty in the 1990's.
Oh I remember being told if you were 18 and unemployed you'd be drafted into a European army.

Still waiting.......

PopeBuckfastXVI

mikemac wrote: »

A yes vote or no vote won't do a lot to reverse what's happening to Irish farmers

Unfortunately their behaviour led to some of their members thinking it would.

I totally understand their motives, but they left it go so long, and conflated Lisbon with the WTO so much, that at least some of their members were left confused about what they were actually voting on.

Hopefully they get their horse trading out of the way long before the campaign next time.