Should everyone really be allowed vote?

Dr Galen

oscarBravo wrote: »

Dumb banned for trolling. I'm disappointed with the amount of troll-feeding that happened on this thread.

fair enough

sorry OB

peanuthead

wylo wrote: »

Ok Im not writing this as a wind up or anything. I know everyone has their rights, and one of the most important rights being voting rights. I know people died for our right to vote etc etc.

But honestly does anyone agree with me here that certain peoples votes are a slap in the face for those that did die for our right?

The reason I bring this up is because I have heard of so many blind votes in the past day or 2 from chatting to people that there's definitely more than enough completely uneducated votes to affect the outcome of an election.

One example, the one that bothered me most, a friend who is now an unemployed carpenter, started an apprenticeship 5 years ago pretty much based on the housing boom. He naturally enough had high hopes for the future. This man has absolutely no interest in politics whatsoever. He voted for a local FF candidate and when we were chatting I had to recall the politicians name as he couldn't remember. I explained to him about the likes of George lee predicting the crash, and the likes of Bertie telling people to keep buying, he just shrugged his shoulders in a lack of interest.

Its one thing voting for your own interests, thats fair enough, but its another thing voting for someone you dont even know or care about.

Sorry I know its just a bit of a rant, I just think there should be some kind of simple test, or maybe you should just have to go somewhere and read info on all candidates and then sign in to get on the register.

I know this would cost and it would probably be a waste, not to mention a reduction in voters, something no politician will support, but wouldn't it be great if everyone voting were people 'in the know'

I absolutely agree whole-heardedly. I have a friend, who is well into her 20's, and would like to think she knows the in's and out's of politics. I never really noticed that she was so clueless before to be honest, we wouldn't ever really discuss politics, and I suppose when we did she was obviously getting by on the opinions of others she had heard discussing such things.

Two whoppers she came out with this week:

1. When we were in a different area to our local one:

"All the politicians around here are different to the ones back home. You don't see any of these lot advertising themselves around home. Too lazy I suppose"

2. And then again, yesterday [note, after voting was OVER]

"Where are all Enda Kenny's posters? I havent seen any for him. I'm definately not voting for him, thats for sure!"


Now thank God she didn't cast her vote, because I shudder to think who would have gotten it!!

Rb

Mena, if people are anti-black power in this country I'd imagine it's out of a fear of their possible agenda, be it secret or public, and the effect it would have on the country/nation.

It's like black people in America only voting for Obama because they think he'll have a totally pro-black agenda (despite there being no obvious one in his public policies irc).

Dr. Baltar

This is exactly like the French Islamophobia.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate....
If we fear the minorities we give them a reason to begin an agenda.
Only by accepting them into our society as equal indivuals (when they get their passport of course ) then we prevent a "black agenda" from ever being created.

Rb

Sir Baralot wrote: »

This is exactly like the French Islamophobia.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate....
If we fear the minorities we give them a reason to begin an agenda.
Only by accepting them into our society as equal indivuals (when they get their passport of course ) then we prevent a "black agenda" from ever being created.

Indeed, however I have to respectfully disagree with regards to Muslims/Islam.

markopantelic

why are british citizens allowed to vote in general election yet other people can't????? madness.

Dr. Baltar

markopantelic wrote: »

why are british citizens allowed to vote in general election yet other people can't????? madness.

I am unsure about that but I believe that sytem was put into effect to allow people living in the North to move down here and automatically be allowed vote in the Dáil because before the good friday agreement many northerners did not have an Irish passport and just a british passport.
People living in the North of Ireland have always been seen as "Irish" not "Foreign".

Pygmalion

Does anyone here really believe that there's some kind of secret black/muslim agenda? Even in Ireland?

markopantelic

ah ok thanks

wylo

im really lost as to where the black vote, or certain citizens not being able to vote comes into all this.

All im saying is you should have to prove your knowledge on the subject before voting,even if its very very limited knowledge. Maybe not even a test, just something where you have to sign in somewhere ,sit down and read a few pamplets , or if you cant read or are blind, get explained by someone the basics like whos running and what their policies are.

And to the poster who mentioned 16 year old voting, id be all on for it, even younger,14 or 15 maybe, but again, I think they should have to go through this system to prove theyre interested in who runs the country.

People say no one should ever be denied a vote,
I say people that dont care one way or the other should never have a right to have an input into who runs our country.
Its so frustrating meeting people who voted a certain way who dont even have the slightest opinion on it. Im not just talking about FF voters,im talking about everyone.

In the example I gave at the start,if that person voted for FF and gave me his reasons , it wouldnt have bothered me in the slightest.

markopantelic

what about some people who vote depending on social issues but don't care or have knowledge about economical issues?

i mean the masses in ireland don't seem to care about idealogical politics, the interest in politics has gone into overdrive lately with downturn but i find it boring tbh.

Well, here's my view

Everyone's allowed vote in whatever way they choose.

You live in the world with these stupid people, and if you think stupid people shouldn't vote, then you should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

It's a fundamental right. You don't like what they do with it? Tough sh*t. Educate people as best you can, that's the best you can do.

markopantelic

the problem with ireland is all of our smart forward thinking open minded people emmigrated in the 60's/70's and 80's, its unbelievable at a time when europe in the 60's was going through with great changes ireland was left behind

in other countries most of the lower class emmigrate but not ireland, in most countries the more wealth you have the more likely you are to vote, not in ireland, in most countries the more urban you are the most likely you will vote but not in ireland.

ShooterSF

wylo wrote: »

People say no one should ever be denied a vote,
I say people that dont care one way or the other should never have a right to have an input into who runs our country.
Its so frustrating meeting people who voted a certain way who dont even have the slightest opinion on it. Im not just talking about FF voters,im talking about everyone.

In the example I gave at the start,if that person voted for FF and gave me his reasons , it wouldnt have bothered me in the slightest.

The question again then is are you just discussing ideology or have you any idea how to even implement such a situation?

Mena

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Because in my opinion, I believe a person who wishes to seek asylum in this country must give to society before receiving certain benefits from our society.
I agree with 'them' being allowed a voice in local elections but I Dáil Éireann to me, as a house of national voice and not until one holds an Irish passport should they be included in that national voice.
Legally an Irish person is a person with an Irish passport and the Dáil is an Irish-only club.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but Immigrants do not necessarily equal Asylum Seeker. There are other forms of immigration into Ireland.

As to your main point, as a legal economic migrant into Ireland of 10 years now, I agree. I don't see why non-Irish citizens would be allowed to vote (if we leave out all my idealistic ramblings) for national Dáil Éireann elections. The system as it stands appears fine to me. Besides, with the way my tax money is currently being turned into toilet paper the Government sure as hell don't want me to be able to vote!

wylo

markopantelic wrote: »

what about some people who vote depending on social issues but don't care or have knowledge about economical issues?

well youve just proven you cared and want to vote for a reason, so then you shouldnt have a problem going in and commiting 5 to 10 mins of your time to signing in somewhere, reading some info to get on the register.

wylo

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, here's my view

Everyone's allowed vote in whatever way they choose.

You live in the world with these stupid people, and if you think stupid people shouldn't vote, then you should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

It's a fundamental right. You don't like what they do with it? Tough sh*t. Educate people as best you can, that's the best you can do.

My idea on it has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever, and apologies if I came across as if it did, but I even mentioned that some one cant read then they could get explained whos running and what their policies are.

So again, stupid people not being allowed vote is insanity, however people with no interest not being allowed , thats fair enough in my opinion.

All im saying is if you want to vote you have to put a bit more effort into your vote. Make it mean something.

wylo

ShooterSF wrote: »

The question again then is are you just discussing ideology or have you any idea how to even implement such a situation?

Ideology tbh, do you think for a second even one politician would promote this??? Its a numbers game for them
Why would the government "waste" money on something that would probably have an instant negative effect on their success at staying in power.

ShooterSF

wylo wrote: »

Ideology tbh, do you think for a second even one politician would promote this??? Its a numbers game for them
Why would the government "waste" money on something that would probably have an instant negative effect on their success at staying in power.

See I agree with the idea, I just couldn't see any real way of implementing it. However on the same lines we could ban candidate posters that offer no information other than a picture and a name and have the parties use the money to put on open days for the public to attend. Therefore giving people a better chance to be informed.

dave-higgz

wylo wrote: »

im really lost as to where the black vote, or certain citizens not being able to vote comes into all this.

All im saying is you should have to prove your knowledge on the subject before voting,even if its very very limited knowledge. Maybe not even a test, just something where you have to sign in somewhere ,sit down and read a few pamplets , or if you cant read or are blind, get explained by someone the basics like whos running and what their policies are.

And to the poster who mentioned 16 year old voting, id be all on for it, even younger,14 or 15 maybe, but again, I think they should have to go through this system to prove theyre interested in who runs the country.

People say no one should ever be denied a vote,
I say people that dont care one way or the other should never have a right to have an input into who runs our country.
Its so frustrating meeting people who voted a certain way who dont even have the slightest opinion on it. Im not just talking about FF voters,im talking about everyone.

In the example I gave at the start,if that person voted for FF and gave me his reasons , it wouldnt have bothered me in the slightest.

16 is a good age I think. 14 and 15 year olds wouldn't have completed CSPE for junior cert and in many cases they'd be immature (I know there's immaturity in all demographics, but I'd say more so in the young teenagers.) Also in my own case the completion of transition year has given me a huge interest in politics and I feel I've matured from it. These are milestones that I feel teenagers need to pass before they can vote.

Neil3030

I think voting shouldn't be on merit. Either everyone votes or nobody votes. What's that you say? If nobody votes then what's the alternative?? I'm glad you asked....

1. Get rid of the Dail/Senate/Presiden/Civil Service.

2. Establish a rate of taxation to be written into the constitution, only changeable by referendum.

3. All individuals must pay this rate of tax to a political party or charity of their choosing.

4. Individuals are free to change their party/charity any time they wish.

There you have it. No fuss, no mess, just political parties being put to the test, having to compete for tax revenues in a free market by proving themselves to be the most competent and efficient providers of public services. This could even allow for libertarian/right-wing fiscal parties, who's only mandate would be to give taxes back at the end of the year and provide no services.

You heard it here first....

Dalfiatach

After nearly 100 years of universal suffrage I do think we really need to ask ourselves whether it is a good idea. Over the last few weeks I've heard a litany of truly bizarre, dumb, moronic and sometimes completely insane reasons for people's voting intentions.

I genuinely think that vast numbers of people really just do not understand our political system, the Constitution, the way the various institutions are structured, what their roles and powers are. They don't have a bloody clue - it's harsh but it needs to be said.

I'm coming to the conclusion that voting should be licenced. There should be an exam on simple facts of how the system works. Nothing too anoraky, just enough to prove the potential voter has some sort of idea how the system works and what they actually are voting for and on. Maybe a 10-year licence, like driving licences or passports. The mechanics already exist, just use the driving theory test rooms and machines. Make it free too, no monetary charge, just turn up, do a 30 minute test on facts, get your 10-year voting card.

The apathetic won't bother, the insane and dumb-as-a-brick won't pass. And only people with some sort of clue will be voting in elections.

Ludo

Dalfiatach wrote: »

I'm coming to the conclusion that voting should be licenced. There should be an exam on simple facts of how the system works. Nothing too anoraky, just enough to prove the potential voter has some sort of idea how the system works and what they actually are voting for and on. Maybe a 10-year licence, like driving licences or passports. The mechanics already exist, just use the driving theory test rooms and machines. Make it free too, no monetary charge, just turn up, do a 30 minute test on facts, get your 10-year voting card.

The apathetic won't bother, the insane and dumb-as-a-brick won't pass. And only people with some sort of clue will be voting in elections.

Maybe we could get potential TDs/ministers to do the same test...I suspect many of them would fail miserably.

What a rediculous thread...that high horse seems to be awfully crowded with those who think they have more of a right to vote than anyone else.

conchubhar1

less than 60% turned out to vote and you want to limit that number?

ludicrous and not the kind who released a few good singles

Rb

Ludo wrote: »

What a rediculous thread...that high horse seems to be awfully crowded with those who think they have more of a right to vote than anyone else.

In fairness, the people posting on this thread or even reading this forum aren't the kind who'll go out and vote for whoever they think is the hottest, or whoevers father they knew, or because they're a neighbour etc etc.

Some certainly might but I'd say on average those reading here would have a lot more political insight or knowledge than the average voter who doesn't.

I've met an enormous amount of people who were insisting that they were going to vote for their local TD in the local elections, despite them not running even running, or people who thought that the local council elections, by-elections and European elections were all the same thing and that George Lee, Gay Mitchell and our local councillors were in fact competing against eachother for the same thing.

Then there's those who can't differentiate between the roles of local councillor, TD and MEP.

I think a voting licence would be a fantastic idea tbh!

Rb

conchubhar1 wrote: »

less than 60% turned out to vote and you want to limit that number?

ludicrous and not the kind who released a few good singles

Less than 60% of those entitled to vote turned out to the polling stations, however if you were to change the system so that you were licenced to vote based on a test, you'd probably bring down the number of those entitled to vote overall but the % of those turning up to the polls would be a lot higher, I'd imagine.

super_furry

Seems to me someone's been watching Starship Troopers a bit too much.

Would you like to know more?

Dr. Baltar

Apologies to bump this thread from the 2nd page, if the debate is deemed over then by all means close it.

This idea of a "licence to vote" is scandalous in my eyes.
Ireland was once an oligarchy when we had landlords and I don't ever want to see those days returned when an elite rules the normal people.
In this scenario it would be an intellectual elite granted, but an elite nonetheless!

Completely against everything that our fathers and grandfathers fought for!

super_furry wrote: »

Would you like to know more?

Indulge me please. :P

Sir Baralot

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Yes, there are idiots in this country. Yes, there are people who are so ignorant of politics in this country that they only help to damage the stability of the nation but:

In my opinion, under no circumstances should a citizen of this country ever be denied their right to vote.
In fact, I believe more people should be given the right to vote. Including 16 year olds for local elections.
Not only this, but if compulsory voting came in, I wouldn't have a problem with it so long as there was a "none of the above" option.

What about the senate?

ShooterSF

ShooterSF wrote: »

The question again then is are you just discussing ideology or have you any idea how to even implement such a situation?

They already do it with the Senate. Which is totally wrong in my opinion and needs to change right away.