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Should gay marriage be legal in Ireland?

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    #212
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    KeyLimePie wrote: »
    I didn't suggest that a woman rearing a child on her own was adversely affecting the child, I was making the point that two men having a child is the same as a single mother !

    And if we could prevent single mothers from existing, then I think that'd be a good thing. But we can't. We can, however, prevent someone from being reared by two men/woman, and I think that they should be prevented. (unless there were no other couples available...in which case a same sex couple would be preferable to an orphanage IMO).


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    #213
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'm not even going to get in to this side argument - but its far from a lifestyle choice.

    +1,000,000


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    #214
    KeyLimePie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 861 ✭✭✭KeyLimePie


    sdonn wrote: »
    Fair points. I'm certainly not advocating that disabled people shouldn't be allowed have kids. I do think, however, that there is a lot of difference between a parent's disability which has an effect on kids, and a lifestyle choice which does the same.

    I still think though that the combined adverse affects on a child far outweigh what's been suggested.

    Being gay is NOT a lifestyle choice. I didn't sit down on day and decide to be gay. I didn't have any negative trauma with boobies that caused me to be gay. I saw the same naked playing cards as everyone else, I saw playboy like everyone else and I saw that wonderbra ad the same as everyone else and I'm still gay. Just like you didn't choose to be straight. Gender and sexuality is hard wired into all of our brains.


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    #215
    havana
    Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭havana


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    I'm an atheist and im still completely against gay marraige. As far as im concerned every mammal is here for one underlying reason, to pro create , so i don't think gay people should be allow marry or adopt kids.

    darn, i now find i have no purpose on this earth. So i shouldn't be allowed to marry. I'm not gay just childless and will quite possibly remain so.


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    #216
    KeyLimePie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 861 ✭✭✭KeyLimePie


    andrew wrote: »
    And if we could prevent single mothers from existing, then I think that'd be a good thing. But we can't. We can, however, prevent someone from being reared by two men/woman, and I think that they should be prevented. (unless there were no other couples available...in which case a same sex couple would be preferable to an orphanage IMO).

    What could possibly happen to a child if two men or two women reared it ?


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    #217
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    havana wrote: »
    darn, i now find i have no purpose on this earth. So i shouldn't be allowed to marry. I'm not gay just childless and will quite possibly remain so.

    I'm not that bad, adopt!


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    #218
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    MYOB: You're asking me a question I cannot even relate to. I support that persons right to appeal their decision. I personally do not believe that interracial couples shouldn't marry. Other people might. Luckily it isn't my job to assess what exactly is deemed to be discrimination.

    You're such a coward.

    1 - You claim your religious beliefs entitles you to discriminate against homosexuals.
    2 - Therefore, religious beliefs can justify discrimination.
    3 - Would you support a religious person discriminating against black people for religious reasons?
    4 - If not, is there a reason aside from that the fact that you happen to share discrimination against homosexuals?


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    #219
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    KeyLimePie wrote: »
    I'm not gonna humor you by arguing that point. As a gay person I feel personally insulted to be compared to incest.

    KeyLimePie, my reason for bringing up the incest point was purely to show if we allow gay marriage then we are opening up a pandora's box for what marriage can be defined as. Where do we draw the line on this? Having said that why do you feel insulted to be compared to incest? What's wrong with it?
    Gay 'marriage' of some sort will eventually become legal in Ireland but I dont think it should be called 'marriage'. Marriage as we traditionally know it is a partnership between a man and a woman. What's the problem with calling it something else?

    As for Adam and Eve's son Cain? He married his sister. The gene pool in the begining was totally pure hence there would not have been genetic abnormalities. As time went on God called a halt on incest as he knew the problems that would arise from it.


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    #220
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Also, that ^ is one of the reasons I don't like religion. Jakkass is an otherwise sensible human being who has been convinced that bigotry against homosexuals is ok. For no reason what so ever.


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    #221
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    I'm an atheist and im still completely against gay marraige. As far as im concerned every mammal is here for one underlying reason, to pro create , so i don't think gay people should be allow marry or adopt kids.
    You what?

    That's your life goal? To pro-create?

    Should people who don't want kids be stopped from marrying?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    People don't disagree with gay marriage because they hate anyone. I don't hate anyone, and indeed it is wrong to hate anyone in my religion. I disagree with the ethics of it, I do not hate the individuals, but I personally cannot support what is deemed to be immoral in my faith. That doesn't affect how we respond to one another as human beings in our daily walks of life it just means we disagree on a single issue :)

    To grossly simplify Christianity, a religion I had thrust upon me in my youth, Jesus told us to do unto others as we'd have them do unto us, and to love our neighbour.

    Plenty of people get married for reasons other than Christian faith and love, and all that stuff, so why would the joining together of two people who love each other in any way impact negatively upon your faith - because, and here's the kicker, I'm guessing you're not about to marry another man any time soon.


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    #222
    havana
    Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭havana


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    I'm not that bad, adopt!

    Ah right. So i can adopt. Cos i'm straight! But i'm single. Is that still preferencial to a gay couple? Thing is i don't want to adopt cos i really don't no if i want kids. So what is my value now?


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    #223
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Yes, well done. You are able to pick a group of 70 people from 2 billion. Do you realise that is basically the same thing as me citing someone who is a member of NAMBLA as your typical homosexual?

    I editted that bit out because it wasn't particularly relevant. I wasn't suggesting you supported them or were like them, I just trying to point out how stupid your "affecting people of faith" argument is. Luckily there are plenty of other people here who are doing that better than I am.
    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    As far as im concerned every mammal is here for one underlying reason, to pro create , so i don't think gay people should be allow marry or adopt kids.

    Oh well, I'd better just go and top myself then since I have no plans to procreate. Clearly not wanting kids means my life has no meaning. :rolleyes:
    Also "gays should not marry because they can't procreate" is bull****. Getting married does not automatically lead to having children.


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    #224
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    You what?

    That's your life goal? To pro-create?

    Should people who don't want kids be stopped from marrying?

    No but people that can't normally have kids shouldn't be allowed to adopt(gay people), i completely agree with normal infertile people adopting, as it is into a normal environment


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    #225
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    No but people that can't normally have kids shouldn't be allowed to adopt(gay people), i completely agree with normal infertile people adopting, as it is into a normal environment

    What is Normal though??


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    #226
    KeyLimePie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 861 ✭✭✭KeyLimePie


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    I'm an atheist and im still completely against gay marraige. As far as im concerned every mammal is here for one underlying reason, to pro create , so i don't think gay people should be allow marry or adopt kids.

    By that logic barren women and men with low sperm counts shouldn't be allowed to marry.


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    #227
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    havana wrote: »
    Ah right. So i can adopt. Cos i'm straight! But i'm single. Is that still preferencial to a gay couple? Thing is i don't want to adopt cos i really don't no if i want kids. So what is my value now?

    Become a foster parent, find out that way


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    #228
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    KeyLimePie wrote: »
    By that logic barren women and men with low sperm counts shouldn't be allowed to marry.

    If you read my responses to other people you would know i support infertile people adopting


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    #229
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    KeyLimePie wrote: »
    Being gay is NOT a lifestyle choice. I didn't sit down on day and decide to be gay. I didn't have any negative trauma with boobies that caused me to be gay. I saw the same naked playing cards as everyone else, I saw playboy like everyone else and I saw that wonderbra ad the same as everyone else and I'm still gay. Just like you didn't choose to be straight. Gender and sexuality is hard wired into all of our brains.

    Being Gay is not a lifestyle choice. Being gay and deciding you want to rear children is. I can't pretend to understand completely how it might feel to be gay and want kids, but I can sympathise with it - but I also can't help how I feel about it, and that's that it would set the child back.

    This could go on into a massive debate but the be all and end all is most of us who either support or deny gay partnership, marriage, gay couples having kids or not, feel a certain way about it and can't help the way we feel. I'm perfectly open minded, I don't need the rationales explained to me...it's just the way I am.


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    #230
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,806 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Splendour wrote: »
    KeyLimePie, my reason for bringing up the incest point was purely to show if we allow gay marriage then we are opening up a pandora's box for what marriage can be defined as. Where do we draw the line on this? Having said that why do you feel insulted to be compared to incest? What's wrong with it?

    Incest is illegal (well, actually, due to badly crafted laws I'm not sure man on man incest is illegal, more later...). Homosexual relations are not. Legalising gay marriages won't open the door to incestuous marriages and to claim so is desperation.


    (in relation to above: As far as I can tell our incest laws only ban male/female incest as at the time they were written, all male/male sexual acts were illegal anyway - they didn't need to double legislate. It appears they may have forgotten this when decriminalising in '93. Which wouldn't surprise me in Ireland.)


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    #231
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    No but people that can't normally have kids shouldn't be allowed to adopt(gay people), i completely agree with normal infertile people adopting, as it is into a normal environment

    Different issue to gay marriage though.


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    #232
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    KeyLimePie wrote: »
    What could possibly happen to a child if two men or two women reared it ?

    Why, because they'll raise it gay of course! Or because it's so unnatural they might be confused what they're supposed to do with a child and end up eating it or something.

    Gay adoption; let's not risk it, folks.


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    #233
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    gcgirl wrote: »
    What is Normal though??

    Heterosexual people that can safely support financially and emotially a child


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    #234
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    KeyLimePie wrote: »
    What could possibly happen to a child if two men or two women reared it ?

    I think that mothers and fathers, by virtue of their sex, contribute in different ways to the development of a child. I think that this contribution is important, and that ideally every child would have it. It's difficult to say exactly what this contribution is, and I admit I'm not a developmental psychologist. But, as an example, I think the existence of 'Daddy's girls' and 'Mammy's boys' is a good example of children learning about members of the opposite sex (and learning to behave around members of the opposite sex) from their parents.

    If someone who was a developmental psychologist could prove/show that the above contribution is non existant or trivial, then I'd change my opinion.


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    #235
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Different issue to gay marriage though.

    Your right we've gotten way off topic.

    I'm against gay marriage!


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    #236
    entropi
    Registered Users Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭entropi


    Sure why not...let them have marriage, its just a big waste of time anyway.


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    #237
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    If you read my responses to other people you would know i support infertile people adopting

    Right, so by the same argument a gay couple should be allowed to get married and adopt.

    I'm always intrigued by people who have horrible opinions and present ridiculous arguments in support of them. Do they not realise they don't make sense? Do they secretly have more logical but horrible reasons, but don't want to state them? Clearly the stated reasons can't be the real reasons because they make no sense and if they were then those beliefs should change when someone points out how patently irrational the argument is.

    In the words of Spock looking upon some gooey horror from the depths of space; Fascinating.


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    #238
    havana
    Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭havana


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    Become a foster parent, find out that way

    Oh please. Right now I do not want children and i doubt i ever will. And i don't plan on road testing it on a child who needs care for greater reasons than me making up my mind on having a child or not. Sorry. I really don't mean to sound rude but it's late and i should be asleep! And i keep getting sucked in! :-)


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    #239
    KeyLimePie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 861 ✭✭✭KeyLimePie


    andrew wrote: »
    I think that mothers and fathers, by virtue of their sex, contribute in different ways to the development of a child. I think that this contribution is important, and that ideally every child would have it. It's difficult to say exactly what this contribution is, and I admit I'm not a developmental psychologist. But, as an example, I think the existence of 'Daddy's girls' and 'Mammy's boys' is a good example of children learning about members of the opposite sex (and learning to behave around members of the opposite sex) from their parents.

    If someone who was a developmental psychologist could prove/show that the above contribution is non existant or trivial, then I'd change my opinion.

    So you've basically slammed

    Widows with children.
    Widowers with children.
    Single foster parents.
    Single people who adopt.

    Now how you can allow these family units and not one with two men ?


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    #240
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,806 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    TheInquisitor wrote: »
    Heterosexual people that can safely support financially and emotially a child

    ...this is an ever increasingly rare scenario, though. You can't claim something is 'normal' when its quite likely not the norm. More kids are born to the poorer than to the richer, large amounts are raised in single parent families for some or most of their lifetime.


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    #241
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    Splendour wrote: »
    KeyLimePie, my reason for bringing up the incest point was purely to show if we allow gay marriage then we are opening up a pandora's box for what marriage can be defined as.

    Slippery slope analogy is a logical fallacy. Were not dealing with incest, we're dealing with same sex marriage. Denying same sex couples basic human rights because you've imagined a dark future where people can marry horses is not logical at all.
    And, we've constantly redefined marriage over time, it's not a static construct, stop pretending it is.

    Splendour wrote: »
    Gay 'marriage' of some sort will eventually become legal in Ireland but I dont think it should be called 'marriage'. Marriage as we traditionally know it is a partnership between a man and a woman. What's the problem with calling it something else?

    Bullshit of the highest order, your idea of what marriage is not law, straight people don't own the word.

    And to put it in terms that might resonate, how about same sex couples call it marriage and straight people call it something else?
    See?
    See how fucking stupid that concept is.

    Splendour wrote: »
    As for Adam and Eve's son Cain? He married his sister. The gene pool in the begining was totally pure hence there would not have been genetic abnormalities. As time went on God called a halt on incest as he knew the problems that would arise from it.

    Ahaha. No.
    Learn to science.


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