Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

lisbon in other countries

Options
24

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well to say something was not needed by the fact it didnt happen
    i think we can both agree that is wrong...

    having a second vote here is wrong.... and to use your favourite term . not needed


  • Options
    #33
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    well to say something was not needed by the fact it didnt happen
    i think we can both agree that is wrong...

    having a second vote here is wrong.... and to use your favourite term . not needed

    Needed = neccessary = had to happen.

    Did not happen = wasn't neccessary = wasn't needed.

    Having a second vote is just as wrong as having the first one.

    Indeed the second vote is not needed, unless we want to pass Lisbon.

    The government have the right to choose to attempt to ratify Lisbon, and if they want to do so then they do need a referendum, under our constitution.


  • Options
    #34
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    to say smething was not needed by the fact it didnt happen is a very ridiculous argument

    no its not my responsibility - but with how our vote was rejected i have become angered at the lack of democracy in the eu

    they are not forced to vote in the referendum - it will be no imposistion on them, should it take place they have a choice to vote or not

    yes it will be an imposition on other countries

    who are we to tell them what to do, and in your own words how is that "democratic" ?

    and once again some countries like Germany would take offence to being asked to vote in referendum due to one nast historical fact that murdered millions of people :cool:

    all this talk of "democracy" from members who have hard time understanding that Ireland would be screwed in a more "democratic" Europe where our votes count less than now, but since the main aim of these people is splitting from the EU and going back to farming spuds lets not get details get in the way
    :mad:


  • Options
    #35
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    well to say something was not needed by the fact it didnt happen
    i think we can both agree that is wrong...

    having a second vote here is wrong.... and to use your favourite term . not needed

    so a vote here in ireland is not needed

    but a few posts earlier you mention that a vote is needed in other coutries

    see a contradiction, you dont know what you want and your arguments have been proven to be false :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #36
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    people who want a more democratic eu want to split from the eu


    and farm spuds


    you sir, are ignorant - there was no need for the comment and i am reporting it


    that marks the end of my discussion here....


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we dont need a second vote

    we had one and it was rejected


    absolutly no contradiction


  • Options
    #38
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    people who want a more democratic eu want to split from the eu


    and farm spuds


    you sir, are a fool and ignorant - there was no need for the comment and i am reporting it


    that marks the end of my discussion here....

    well thats the ultimate conclusion aint it? back to farming spuds ... great majority of our exports is to the EU, without the EU you will have to pay huge tarrifs to access this market effectively killing whatever little industry we have left :(

    once again you wish to impose irish form of "democracy" on other countries, and dont want a "democratic" vote here in ireland

    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    we dont need a second vote

    we had one and it was rejected

    absolutly no contradiction
    yesterday pro-europe and pro-lisbon parties overwhelmingly did well in the elections, since this is a representative system you can well assume that majority of people want a referendum, and if you still insist NO then why not have a referendum on whether to have a referendum :D its only democratic no?

    ...


  • Options
    #39
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    No, I would not. Is President Obama Sarkozy a more "democratic" head of government than our Taoiseach because Mr Cowen was "only" elected by a vote of the Dáil and not directly by the people? Representative democracy comes in many different flavours.

    The logic of the Czech constitution is that it must have been envisaged that the President wouldn't necessarily always agree with Parliament, otherwise there would have been no point in giving the presidency this power.

    Of course you wouldn't. It's not in your interests in this case to do so is it? Would you be happy to give Brian Cowen the power to overrule the Dail? Would you support him if he then chose to and insist its not "undemocratic". Come off it, we both know that if that were to happen you'd be jumping up and down crying foul. After all you are doing so right now by crying foul at the thought of the Irish Government utilising their constitutional right to hold a referendum this year. And yet you talk about double standards.

    At the end of the day as I said originally, and as PopeBucky (if I may shorten the name) also pointed out, it is not our place to cast judgement on their methods, nor theirs on ours. And this is directed at conchubar too. Each electorate must decide for themselves how they want to proceed, be it referenda or not. Whatever we may feel is totally irrelevant.


  • Options
    #40
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    no that is not the alternative

    i'm not imposing it, i stated it should happen - if democracy had its day

    we had a democratic vote, the issue is resolved here! for the last time


  • Options
    #41
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    no that is not the alternative

    i'm not imposing it, i stated it should happen - if democracy had its day

    we had a democratic vote, the issue is resolved here! for the last time

    and yesterday people elected pro europe and pro lisbon politicians to represent them at the local and EU levels, alongside our existing pro EU government elected not too long ago

    denying the people a vote is "undemocratic"

    if you dont think so please do outline how denying people a vote is a democratic concept :D

    see you tripped up on your own arguments now ...

    alot has happened in the last year, we now have alot of people and politicians calling for another general election, this just shows that peoples opinion can change, what do you propose FF stay in power, because the people had their say once? ha!

    .


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we had a vote before, lisbon 1

    i cant make it more clear


    voting pro eu candidates has got to do with the lisbon treaty how?
    i dont go along with the anti lisbon means anti eu stuff


  • Options
    #43
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    no that is not the alternative

    i'm not imposing it, i stated it should happen - if democracy had its day

    we had a democratic vote, the issue is resolved here! for the last time

    Do you accept the constitutional right of the democratically elected government of the Irish Republic to propse referenda to the people, on any issue which they see fit, as many times as they like?

    If you do not accept that right you will have to start a campaign to change the constitution to prevent it.

    Until that happens you are only giving your opinion that we *shouldn't* have a second vote, an opinion which you are welcome to, but with which I personally disagree.


  • Options
    #44
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Of course you wouldn't. It's not in your interests in this case to do so is it? Would you be happy to give Brian Cowen the power to overrule the Dail? Would you support him if he then chose to and insist its not "undemocratic".

    A better analogy would be with the power of our president to decline to sign bills into law and to refer them to the Supreme Court.
    molloyjh wrote: »
    Come off it, we both know that if that were to happen you'd be jumping up and down crying foul. After all you are doing so right now by crying foul at the thought of the Irish Government utilising their constitutional right to hold a referendum this year. And yet you talk about double standards.

    I beg your pardon, I'm not crying foul at all. I never said the Irish government wasn't within its rights to hold another referendum and I have no problem with them doing so. I do look forward to exercising my right to vote no again.
    molloyjh wrote: »
    At the end of the day as I said originally, and as PopeBucky (if I may shorten the name) also pointed out, it is not our place to cast judgement on their methods, nor theirs on ours.

    I have trouble reconciling the above comment with this:
    molloyjh wrote: »
    I think the point is that their Parliament is more representative of the people.


  • Options
    #45
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    voting pro eu candidates has got to do with the lisbon treaty how?

    can i make it any more clearer :D ?

    we live in a representative democracy where we vote for politicians to represent us and our views, yesterday we have elected politicians to local and euro levels with strong pro lisbon and pro europe policies, they join the existing pro Lisbon national government

    we overwhelmingly voted for people whose policies are pro Lisbon

    comprende?

    our constitution states a means of holding a referenda as many times as we want (there is no mention of limitations on # of referenda) via the means of direct democracy, do you disagree with our constitution and cornerstone of the state?

    jebus :rolleyes:

    .


  • Options
    #46
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    they are legaly able

    but the issue is done - putting it to a second vote is stating ''ah now lads ya got it wrong, go back again and make sure we dont make ya do it a third time till ye get it right''


    it was voted no - end of


  • Options
    #47
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we also had a referendum

    where we voted no - the eu elections were no fought on the issue of the lisbon ratfication


    can i be more explicit?


  • Options
    #48
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    we also had a referendum

    where we voted no - the eu elections were no fought on the issue of the lisbon ratfication


    can i be more explicit?

    Libertas and SF did fight the EU elections on the issues of the Lisbon treaty

    see the 1 page advert on the Galway advertiser from Declan Ganley as an example


  • Options
    #49
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    dont mind libertas

    if we are talking democracy and politics they gave no right of mention - more so or equal to the bnp


    the referendum was purely on the treaty - it go a ........ NO


  • Options
    #50
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    they are legaly able

    Thank you, that's all that matters.


  • Options
    #51
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    Libertas and SF did fight the EU elections on the issues of the Lisbon treaty


    that wasn't even one of sf top aims - very mute point

    again referendum = no

    that was purely on the lisbon treaty


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    USE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭USE


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    will the czech ratify it if the lisbon 2 gets through?
    Polish and Czech presidential decisions is based on Irish one. After you will ratify the treaty, if you will, they will give their signatures.

    The decision in Germany is based on the Constitutional Court and it won't make a problem.
    German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung suggests that the court will give the green light to the treaty <...>
    Source.


  • Options
    #53
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    so they should keep going back until they get the result they want?

    you cant honestly believe that


  • Options
    #54
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    dont mind libertas

    if we are talking democracy and politics they gave no right of mention - more so or equal to the bnp


    the referendum was purely on the treaty - it go a ........ NO

    and the rest of our European members want us to vote on the issue again as EU is stuck in a limbo now

    also alot of people in this country might have realised in the last year that our country was not what it seems, and realise that we need the help of EU and more EU billions to keep this ship from sinking

    you still havent answered my question, and keep avoiding it

    how is it democratic to prevent people from having a vote?


  • Options
    #55
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    so they should keep going back until they get the result they want?

    you cant honestly believe that

    They have the right to do so, until they are turfed out of office. I suspect I know which would happen first...

    (they'd be turfed out, just to be clear).


  • Options
    #56
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we had the vote before

    we rejected lisbon - not europe

    we are still in europe - that wont change, we still receive their money and still play a role in europe. scaremongering on that point


  • Options
    #57
    USE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭USE


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    that needs or should have a referendum!
    Countries make decisions in their usual traditional way. It is not an exception for this treaty in any of the countries. Please read this to find out how the decisions like this one are taken in those countries:
    http://www.robert-schuman.org/tout-comprendre-sur-le-traite-de-lisbonne.php?r=2


  • Options
    #58
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    A better analogy would be with the power of our president to decline to sign bills into law and to refer them to the Supreme Court.

    Well not really given that we're talking about an indirectly elected President. Ours is directly elected (that is when there are actually people bothering to contest it!).
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I beg your pardon, I'm not crying foul at all. I never said the Irish government wasn't within its rights to hold another referendum and I have no problem with them doing so. I do look forward to exercising my right to vote no again.

    My apologies. In my haste I muddled up posts/posters.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I have trouble reconciling the above comment with this:

    How so? All I said was that the Parliament is more representative of the people in the Czech Republic, but that either way how they choose to go about ratification is their business and it's not our place to judge it.


  • Options
    #59
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we have established they have the legal right

    but it is not right


    to keep putting it to vote until they get what they want is a small step above not giving the vote and pusing it through and getting what they want.


  • Options
    #60
    USE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭USE


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    to keep putting it to vote until they get what they want
    Read the thread that you have created on your own.

    They have changed the conditions for Ireland and that's why it is fair to ask you again.

    They can ask you as much times as they will change the conditions until they will find the solution that is OK both gfor the people of Ireland and for the EU.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    Libertas and SF did fight the EU elections on the issues of the Lisbon treaty

    see the 1 page advert on the Galway advertiser from Declan Ganley as an example

    Putting aside everything for a second, while people are happy to use this as a point of reference people like myself will continue to have to give votes to the horrible likes of Libertas.
    People vote on a multitude of issues. The idea that Ganley doesn't look like getting a seat does not diminish the anti-lisbon argument.
    Then again alot of the arguments in this thread are at best opinion.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement