Joe Higgins MEP: McDonald & Ganley finished!

Permabear · 12-06-2009 7:54pm

This post has been deleted.

conchubhar1 · 12-06-2009 7:57pm

Piste wrote: »

My point wasn't about socialsm, it's about who Joe Higgins believes he is representing.

he is a socialist........

Piste · 12-06-2009 11:36pm

That doesn't answer my question, unless you mean to imply that socialists only consider workers on low wages to be "real" workers?

This whole "Man of the People representing workers" act belongs back in industrial Britain when there was a clear divide between manual labourers doing gruelling work for little pay over long hours and incredibly wealthy landlords/factory owners who did very little work.

The fact is, roles have changed and lines have blurred. Quite often the capitalists who socialists seem to hate so much have worked very hard to get where they are. What income do you have to reach before you stop being a "worker"?

conchubhar1 · 12-06-2009 11:43pm

it should answer your question providing you knw what socialism means and have read and listened to what joe is about

oscarBravo · 12-06-2009 11:46pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it should answer your question providing you knw what socialism means and have read and listened to what joe is about

I'm still not clear on the distinction. I part-own my own business. I work longer hours than the people I employ, and - depending on performance-related bonuses - sometimes get paid less than them.

Am I a worker, or not? Does Joe represent me?

conchubhar1 · 12-06-2009 11:47pm

yes he represents dublin as an mep in europe
are you in dublin?

oscarBravo · 12-06-2009 11:49pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes he represents dublin as an mep in europe
are you in dublin?

You're deliberately avoiding my point.

Joe keeps telling us he represents the working classes. Does that include someone in my situation?

conchubhar1 · 12-06-2009 11:51pm

yes i know exactly your point

you are a worker yes - buy you earn more than most and therefore the rate of tax you pay should be higher - i have no doubt you will debate the ''should''

Piste · 13-06-2009 12:12am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it should answer your question providing you knw what socialism means and have read and listened to what joe is about

I have read what Joe is about. In fact, what prompted me to ask what a "worker" is was his delightfully vague claim to represent both the "workers" and "unemployed". Seeing as one can only be employed or unemployed, wouldn't that seem to imply that Joe represents everyone?

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 12:19am

yes and no ^

i would imagine he would advocate that someone well of would pay higher tax rate as they can afford it

so that people who are homeless or poor can have a better life
also to improve healthcare for all - education etc etc

K-9 · 13-06-2009 12:47am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes and no ^

i would imagine he would advocate that someone well of would pay higher tax rate as they can afford it

so that people who are homeless or poor can have a better life
also to improve healthcare for all - education etc etc

I don't think this is a big issue in Ireland. The rate of tax may be an issue but the concept of a higher rate seems universal.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 12:57am

i think the homeless throughout the country would disagree - just one example

asdasd · 13-06-2009 1:03am

i think the homeless throughout the country would disagree - just one example

Policy made by the homeless. that would be fantastic.

The homeless, by the way, are not working class. The working class has to be working, or available for work. The homless are lumpen proletariat.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 1:04am

for the homeless and society as a whole

asdasd · 13-06-2009 1:10am

for the homeless and society as a whole

society as a whole? Meaningless. What's the top rate of tax, exactly, that you are aimimg for? We had 65% in the Eighties, and we had the homeless.

K-9 · 13-06-2009 1:13am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i think the homeless throughout the country would disagree - just one example

The middle classes may disagree with you - just one example.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 1:16am

aim for the upper classes and the millionaires

the middle classes already pay the upper tax rate.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 1:17am

we had homlessness in the 80's because nothing was done to combat it

K-9 · 13-06-2009 1:21am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

aim for the upper classes and the millionaires

the middle classes already pay the upper tax rate.

They don't pay their fair share though, neither do people on minimum wage compared to other countries.

The upper classes and millionaires pay about 80% of the income taxes.

PS. Some double income middle class families do not pay higher rate tax. Madness.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 1:22am

fiar share is relevant to what they earn

people who earn more can afford to pay more - and should. morally.

K-9 · 13-06-2009 1:26am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

fiar share is relevant to what they earn

people who earn more can afford to pay more - and should. morally.

They do.

You pay about £30/40 in tax and NIC on the NI minimum wage, in the ROI you pay about €7 on a higher wage.

Is that fair? Should they pay more as they can afford to pay more. Their NI Counterpart can afford it.

youcrazyjesus! · 13-06-2009 1:35am

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're deliberately avoiding my point.

Joe keeps telling us he represents the working classes. Does that include someone in my situation?

Actually, if your business is run as you say it is you'd fit in quite well with Joe's version of socialism.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 1:37am

people who earn more should pay more - otherwise it is just greediness

K-9 · 13-06-2009 1:55am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

people who earn more should pay more - otherwise it is just greediness

So you agree people on on minimum wage should pay more tax as they earn more than other countries. Good.

Permabear · 13-06-2009 2:09am

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asdasd · 13-06-2009 2:13am

The Marxist would say that the distinction hinges on "ownership of the mode of production." But I don't think that's a meaningful distinction in today's world, either.

If trade unions have pension funds invested in common stockthey own the means od production ( partly), as does my civil servant mother.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 2:14am

i zone out when i hear marxist or communist in a debate on socialism
it shows ignorance and contempt and lack of knowledge of the topic of socialism

k-9 i am talking within countries - not worldwide. and you know it

people wjo earn the most should pay the most tax in that country

K-9 · 13-06-2009 2:17am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

k-9 i am talking within countries - not worldwide. and you know it

people wjo earn the most should pay the most tax in that country

They do, maybe not as much as you'd like but then again the lower paid don't pay enough tax in this country either.

We are a low tax country all round, actually our higher rate is normal enough. Our low tax entry point is abnormal. The problem is the gap between 0 tax and higher rate tax is small. That's a combination of a low entry point to higher tax and a very high zero tax rate.

Permabear · 13-06-2009 2:19am

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Amazotheamazing · 13-06-2009 2:22am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

people wjo earn the most should pay the most tax in that country

Doesn't mean you need higher rates of tax though.

Someone who earns 150k already pays more tax than someone who earns 100k, etc.

Anyhow, I know plenty of guys who studied hard in school, studied hard in college, and worked hard when they left college to develop their careers. Why should they be excessively penalised for their effort?

I'm all for reasonable taxation, but adopting a punitive tax regime is not going to solve anything, imo.

Joe Higgins MEP: McDonald & Ganley finished!

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